Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Questions about MPEG4 reception, TV/STB/CAM availability here

Options
13

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    Rick_
    Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Rick_


    Where did you get yours from? How much was it? Will it definitely work on this TV even though it only has an MPEG-2 DVB-T tuner in it? (Presumable the CAM will do whatever is neded to decode an MPEG-4 broadcast?)


  • Options
    #63
    LarWright
    Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭LarWright


    Paddy C wrote: »
    Where did you get yours from? How much was it? Will it definitely work on this TV even though it only has an MPEG-2 DVB-T tuner in it? (Presumable the CAM will do whatever is neded to decode an MPEG-4 broadcast?)

    I bought the Viaccess CAM-ViaMPEG4 from dvbshop.net. Total includung shipping was €63.83.... But i see its reduced 7% now.

    Here is the link for it. CLICK ME!

    I have the Sony 40W2000 which only has MPEG 2 and it worked. Watty on here reckons to hold off until the Boxer DTT service lauches as they'll most probably offer a discounted CAM adaptor if you subscribe.

    Make sure your TV has a CAM slot in it though!


  • Options
    #64
    Rick_
    Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Rick_


    My TV is the 32V4000 which does have a CI slot, but comes with an MPEG2 DTT tuner. (I thought Sony's W series was MPEG4 DTT tuner?). I didn't think using an MPEG 4 CAM would work as the TV itself had to support MPEG4 already, unless that's what the CAM is actually used for? Sorry if I'm sounding silly. I don't know about these things, and I don't wanna buy the CAM if it won't work.


  • Options
    #65
    Mayo Exile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭Mayo Exile


    (I thought Sony's W series was MPEG4 DTT tuner?)

    Sony W4000 series has an MPEG4 DTT tuner.


  • Options
    #66
    Rick_
    Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Rick_


    Which is probably why the CAM worked. I don't think it would work if I tried it in my V4000 but have no way of checking before I buy...


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    LarWright
    Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭LarWright


    Well mine is the W2000 series which only has the MPEG2 decoder. So in relation to the CAM working, that's not why. It's the W4000 that has MPEG4 built in, not the W2000.

    AFAIK, the Cam takes the MPEG4 stream data and re-encodes to MPEG2 allowing it to be displayed on an MPEG2 compatible TV.

    All I know is, before I got it, I just got a black screen with Audio, not since inserting the CAM, I get the picture too.

    Maybe hold off on it 'til Boxer launch? If you can get a decent RTE/TV3/TG4 signal on Analogue or through Sky, there's no point yet, as they're to only channels on DTT now.


  • Options
    #68
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    I posted Neotion's compatiability list some time back. Perhaps the mods could sticky it. It seems to be a constant query.

    The V4500/V4700 are listed as ok.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055384875


  • Options
    #69
    Rick_
    Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Rick_


    I have good RTÉ by aerial an Sky, just would be nice if something was on that was blocked through Sky I could still watch it in widescreen through DTT rather than the 4:3 analogue picture.

    I have no intention fo subscribing to Boxer when it launches for the Irish DTT service, all I was interested in having was full unrestricted access to all 4 Irish channels, as Sky only gives RTÉ ONE, RTÉ TWO and TG 4 and some programming is blocked.

    That website you posted a link to LarWright is selling the CAMs for £34.91 plus postage. Price will remain until Hallowe'en so I have until then to decide to buy...


  • Options
    #70
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    STB wrote: »
    I posted Neotion's compatiability list some time back. Perhaps the mods could sticky it. It seems to be a constant query.

    The V4500/V4700 are listed as ok.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055384875

    Personally having compared a true MPEG4 receiver and the Neotion adaptor I don't want to promote it for FIVE reasons:

    1) It's likely Boxer will offer a subsidized solution, that would work out cheaper including a minimum subscription period
    2)The quality is a lot poorer than external MPEG4 setbox.
    3) A PVR setbox also solves the recording problem (a DVD/HD/VHS recorder won't work well except with a setbox and is much poorer than built in HDD recording in a set-box which gives equal to live quality and scheduling)
    4) Any CAM type adaptor will also be cheaper by time service launches
    5)Retailers may have to supply an adaptor free with any non-MPEG4 Digital TV they sell. This should already be law or else the TV should be sold as a Monitor only.


  • Options
    #71
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Personally Watty its not about you. And what you want do/do not want to endorse.

    And its not about endorsing products either (I don’t make it or sell it!)

    Whatever about your 5 points it is clear that people should make there own minds up whether they wish to fix their 1 grand TV with €60's worth of additional hardware.

    I don’t think making the post sticky will endorse it anyhow. Most people have bought one to suit their own purposes so personally I believe that.....

    1) On the basis of democracy - let the punter make there mind up.

    2) Some OTHERS may want an immediate fix to their bricks at the moment and wish to watch free to air digital television now. Some may not wish to wait until next year.

    3) As regards Boxer (a year to launch ???) you assume that people would wish to subscribe to this service in order to get a cheap cam! Eh.....

    3) As regards quality - black screen or transcoded mpeg2. I think its an individuals call. Myself I'm a techno and audiophile. Not everyone is.

    4) On as much information being made available - Lets stop people buying these when they WONT work on certain TVs.

    5) You don’t want to promote it in favour of PVR's! Stop please... that makes no sense.

    6) The reason why I raised the point initially is that there were 4 requests within 2 days about whether certain models worked with the cam. Whilst I don’t mod this board, you do, and I thought it had been a persistent enough question that it needed to be pointed out that there was a list!

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055384875

    7) Speculation about what a TV retailer will or will not have to do is just that, speculative, and irrelevant. That they are still selling mpeg2/freeview only digital technology knowing what the spec is, says it all.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Making a solution a Sticky suggests it is a good solution.

    While it works for some sets, my professional testing proves it is not a good technical solution.

    IMO absolutely no-one should buy this, why spend 800 Eur to 200 Eur on a TV and have a substandard picture and no ability to record?


  • Options
    #73
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Perhaps because of the large number of us out there with pre-existing panels with CAM slots who would like to experiment and see if we can pull-in and decode the MPEG4 signal? Its only £35 for a Neotion MPEG4 CAM now- half what it cost just a few months ago- so its not a massive outlay. Your call of course.


  • Options
    #74
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    .........and maybe some people dont want to spend another €300 to get record facilities. Sure the economy is booming.

    Maybe they would just like to watch DTT without much of an outlay.

    People have already bought iDTV's that wont work, thats the problem!

    They shouldnt have to fork out silly money just to enable there digital decoder. Of course it wont help all people. And it might sway people away from buying it if their TV is not on the list.

    There is already enough disinformation out there about digital so I suppose its no harm to be consistent and second guess why the french thought it might be a cheap fix for legacy tv's.

    By the way the sticky on the availability of indoor aerials for DTT and their performance is again not the full facts.......and unhelpful. But sure we'll agree to...

    Leave it with you. I'm sure people will find the info on other av forums if they so wish...


  • Options
    #75
    pigeon1916
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭pigeon1916


    Does anyone know where I could get my hands on a Cheap MPEG4 STB.:confused:
    (I will not want to Subscribe to Boxer or any other Pay TV.)


  • Options
    #76
    dhaumi
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭dhaumi


    I have a Sony 32V2500MP4. It's one of the first model to include a cam slot. I got to use it when I was in France, the TV was actually sold with a cam and a card to get pay-TV via DTT.
    I thought the quality was stunning! Probably the best DTT I've seen so far.
    Watty got a point about the PVR that this solution doesn't offer, one does get use to that thing. But for a simple, cheap solution, it is viable.


  • Options
    #77
    Ninjakettle
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭Ninjakettle


    A quick (dumb?) question guys:
    Will DTT be broadcast over UHF only throughout Ireland or is VHF involved? - just wondering as i'm in north-east of galway city and it's mixed there at the moment i think.


  • Options
    #78
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Ninjakettle wrote: »
    A quick (dumb?) question guys:
    Will DTT be broadcast over UHF only throughout Ireland or is VHF involved? - just wondering as i'm in north-east of galway city and it's mixed there at the moment i think.

    As far as I know- there is an EU directive that the VHF spectrum and a large portion of the current UHF spectrum is to be freed up by 2014 (analogue turn-off being 2012). I'm not aware that there is a decision on what to do with these newfound spectrum riches? Perhaps someone else knows?


  • Options
    #79
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    watty wrote: »
    Making a solution a Sticky suggests it is a good solution.

    While it works for some sets, my professional testing proves it is not a good technical solution.

    IMO absolutely no-one should buy this, why spend 800 Eur to 200 Eur on a TV and have a substandard picture and no ability to record?

    Sorry I cant let this go.

    My professional testing say it works. Am I any less qualified ? :)

    Communist Ireland eh.


  • Options
    #80
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You arn't the Moderator.

    It works, but with visibly degraded picture. The "real" MPEG4 receiver gives DVD quality pictures, the Neotion "CAM" converter (a) Runs VERY hot, (b) is NTL cable or lower quality.

    Typical 32" WS 1366 x 768 LCD used for comparison, with only external set-box.

    Signal sources were our own MPEG4 encodings via our own transmitter and also RTE off air test signals from Three Rock.

    Generic USB stick, Lyngbox, Reelbox and Technisat DTT tuners tested. Except for USB stick (1600x1200 laptop) all fed LCD via RGB SCART. Lyngbox also tested on HDMI (slightly different colour/contrast/Brightness, but same sharpness artifacts/lack of artifacts).


  • Options
    #81
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Watty- the picture quality is vastly superior analogue NTL- there is simply no comparison (it is noticeably better with some CAMs than others- I've tried 4 different ones during my testing)- but inferior to NTL digital.

    Yes- the CAM runs ridiculously hot- as in hot enough to burn your hand, but this doesn't seem to affect performance. The engineering samples Humax sent around (the small black box) also run ridiculously hot- I've been told that its a chipset issue.

    I haven't been involved in any official testing- nor do I have the equipment to do screen shots etc via the PC (though I was thinking of getting the USB cam holder and software from dvbshop to see what its like).

    I for one, have no intention of paying Boxer a red cent- I use Freesat and Sky Freeview along with analogue at present, and to be quite honest could not justify EUR22.50 a month ontop of the licence fee for an hour or two's viewing in the evening.

    Regarding making a sticky- it would be handy for people. Certainly getting CAMs in the longterm is a non-runner- but as a short to medium term solution for the thousands of people who have panels with MPEG2 decoders built-in and CAM slots, its a tidy inexpensive solution. They're only £35 now- which is half what they were just a few months ago- its at a price point where you'd almost buy it on a whim.......


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    So all your trials have been on an LCD without an inbuilt DVB-T tuner !

    There is only one TX output that matters and that is the output from RTENL. By the way I am actually curious as to how you replicated MPEG4 broadcasts and what kind of gear you used?

    Ok so you used a technisat receiver that is only MPEG2 on the DVB-T end added the cam to that and then compared it to the direct output to the LCD from the lyngbox (which has an mpeg4 tuner) and a reelbox (which also has a MPEG4 tuner).

    And then you compared it with the output of a USB DVB-T stick on a laptop ?

    So the technisat is what you tested the CAM on ? Am I right ?

    Sony and Phillips and the other manufacturers who were involved in the devlopment of this product must be kicking themselves as a result of your field tests.

    Look my only point was its cheap and cheerful and is probably a short term fix for those with legacy idtvs. You keep missing one main point. Not everyone like you and I are purists (soe cant afford to be). Some people still watch TV on CRTs!

    Personally I dont endorse products myself but I am open to new technology and I thought it was a fairly nifty invention (as are most cams!)

    Anyway so be it.


  • Options
    #83
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    A point not mentioned so far relates to the remote controls. If I use a cam, I think my remote will continue to control the TV. With a DTT set top box, I would have four remotes, one for sat, pvr, dtt, and one for the TV.

    I want one zapper, but I do not want to have to buy a 'one4all' solution, as I would have to program it.

    If there was a single stb that did everything, include control the TV, I might consider that, but it would have to be at a reasonable price.

    Picture quality is important, but ease of use is also important. I do not want to have to change volume and aspect ratio on a per channel basis as I have to do at the moment. (TV3 is appalling for this as a lot of their output is 4/3 and their adverts are 16/9 so tv is constantly changing.)

    We live in a time of rapid TV change.


  • Options
    #84
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    pigeon1916 wrote: »
    Does anyone know where I could get my hands on a Cheap MPEG4 STB.

    (I will not want to Subscribe to Boxer or any other Pay TV.)

    Sagem - ITAD 92 HD seems to fit the bill
    fp-Sagem-ITAD-92-HD-22006.jpg
    €60. http://www.windil.fr/p/sagem-itad-92-hd-tntop-recepteur-tnt-hd-mpeg4-hdmi-sagem/L0809188972011/


  • Options
    #85
    pajodublin
    Registered Users Posts: 994 ✭✭✭pajodublin


    i was thinking about buying a Laptop with In-Built DVB-T
    will it pick up any channels here

    It also has an analogue tuner too, does this pick up the Irish Channels
    thanks
    Pajo


  • Options
    #86
    derrycragg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭derrycragg


    Hi, STB,
    Can you tell me where I might purchase the Sagem itad 92 hd st top box, please.


  • Options
    #87
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,511 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Ninjakettle wrote: »
    A quick (dumb?) question guys:
    Will DTT be broadcast over UHF only throughout Ireland or is VHF involved? - just wondering as i'm in north-east of galway city and it's mixed there at the moment i think.

    Not a dumb question, read from this post on from a previous discussion of DTT on VHF.
    In Ireland only UHF DTT is planned even though VHF is allowed by the Irish DTT Standards and frequencies were allocated at RRC06 for one national and 7 regional VHF DVB-T multiplexes (see the attachment below).
    A DTT spectrum consultation was carried out by the Dept of Comms in 2005 prior to RRC06. (Comregs response)


  • Options
    #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Perhaps because of the large number of us out there with pre-existing panels with CAM slots who would like to experiment and see if we can pull-in and decode the MPEG4 signal? Its only £35 for a Neotion MPEG4 CAM now- half what it cost just a few months ago- so its not a massive outlay. Your call of course.
    Ok Could someone clarify for me.

    I got a Sony 32 W4000 yesterday.It has an mpeg4 tuner so it picked up the digital services from Mt Leinster straight away.

    It has a slot on the back for a Cam.Presumably I'll have to get one of these in the unlikely event that I might subscribe to boxer when it gets up and running in 2019...
    Or will they be providing one?

    Am I right in thinking that this cam is going to cause a degradation in picture quality as it's another stage of filtering?

    If so whats the point in that,I'd be better off sticking with just the EPG with the 4 Irish channells and the 4 radio channels that I have now and getting the new humax pvr when available.


  • Options
    #89
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No, a CAM just used for a viewing card causes no degradion of quality. Boxer will supply it, likely free. Since most iDTVs will be MPEG2 rather than MPEG2, it's likely they will offer the Neotion Cam+ Converter free as well or exclusively.

    The Neotion is more than a CAM. It is a MPEG4 decoder and a real time MPEG2 encoder. It's simply not possible to real time convert MPEG4 to MPEG2 without loss in Quality. I've done AB tests also with similar quality MPEG2 & MPEG4 transmissions. I used Outlined Animated Film as Artifacts show up at the edges. Pure natural country landscapes and people are less prone to create artifacts and they are less visble. Contrasty sharp captions also are a good test.



    My argument is two fold:
    1) Not sensible to spend money on a Test, better to wait till Launch and get more choice and cheaper or even free.

    2) Why spend 600 Eur to 3000 Eur and have no decent method of recording (or none at all) and also have a visible reduction in quality even on a 32" LCD due to using Neotion for MPEG4->MPEG2?

    An external set-box for MPEG4 will be about price of a Neotion Conversion-CAM next year and a PVR (hard drive recording by EPG guide like Tivo or Sky+) under €250.


  • Options
    #90
    BowWow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,762 ✭✭✭BowWow


    Deleted User wrote: »
    when it gets up and running in 2019...

    freudian slip? :D


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    STB wrote: »
    So all your trials have been on an LCD without an inbuilt DVB-T tuner !

    There is only one TX output that matters and that is the output from RTENL. By the way I am actually curious as to how you replicated MPEG4 broadcasts and what kind of gear you used?

    Personally I dont endorse products myself but I am open to new technology and I thought it was a fairly nifty invention (as are most cams!)

    Anyway so be it.

    It is a nice idea, which is why I got one with an ethernet port :) I saw it prior to launch in Amsterdam 2 years ago.

    Only using external video (and same for all is a viable test). The similar quality of same content was tested at MPEG4 and MPEG2. No difference on the Lyngbox. Significant difference on the Technisat. The RTE MPEG4 tests were no use as they obviously experimenting and sometimes quality poor on Lyngbox and sometimes OK on Technisat (changes of encoder settings I suspect, not just TX bitrate and FEC).

    With the RTE transmissions it was not possible to do proper controlled testing with program material of same content and similar quality in MPEG2 and MPEG4 and also see effect of bit-rate (RTE will change bit-rate in future). I wanted to test with the kind of content I know re-encodes badly in real time :(

    I used pre-encoded MPEG-2 Transport Stream files with MPEG2 and MPEG4 content. The content was Variable Bit Rate encoded (The Neotion has to do CBR for the MPEG2), at rates from 3Mbps to 6Mbps average (9Mbps peak) on MPEG2 and 800kbps to 2Mbps average and 5Mbps peak on MPEG4.

    Various 2 pass VBR encoders were used and various tools to create MPEG2-TS encapsulation used.

    Then a 2,600 Euro PCI card, a QAM encoder able to drive UHF directly (i.e. built in Up Converter) that can do QAM A, QAM B, DVB-c and DVB-t (5, 6, 7 or 8MHz versions) from a file or ASI input. Symbol rate (depending on bandwidth) can be varied from 1.5M sym/s to 48M sym/s and QAM from QPSK to 256QAM (cable), with 1/8th to 1/32 OFDM guard and FEC from 1/2 to 7/8.

    It may be reasonable to put a Sticky closer to launch. It must clearly state the disadvantage of the CAM-Converter.

    I'm not doing any more DVB-t tests.

    I have a cheap learning remote from Lidl. It's as easy to setup as a Sky Remote for TV. It also works Home Cinema Amp.


Advertisement