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Atheist arrogance

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  • 02-10-2008 12:30pm
    #1
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭


    Hi,
    Ok this is a bit of a weird one. Does anybody feel they can come across a bit arrogant?

    When debating / discussing / arguing I tend to try and work through the logic of the disagreement. Unfortunately, when someone is being irrational, emotional their arguments fall apart in record time. That's embarrasing for anyone and it can often mean that the emotional person thinks the logic person is just arrogant.

    Arrogance is a curse. It doesn't win friends. The Buddhist religion (and in some respects Christianity) teaches humbleness and compassion. This means that humans who follow these traditions get little reminders about important things, even if their religions are ultimately baseless and half their followers fail to practise what they preach.

    But I'm wondering, in what respects could an atheist take action to ensure they do not become immune and apathetic by the onset of unintended arrogance?

    Do we need little reminders?

    Discuss.


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    #2
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Do we need little reminders?
    Sure - for a start don't put "discuss" at the end of an opening post.* :pac:

    It's tough for atheists to avoid the arrogant label by virtue of the subject matter. By it's nature, supporting atheism in a debate is about discrediting other people's beliefs.

    On the other hand a believer with the same enthusiasm is seen to have great 'faith'.


    * Pet hate - and I know I'm not alone


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    #3
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Not arrogant, correct!


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    #4
    F.A.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭F.A.


    Well, I usually tend to avoid the subject at all cost as I simply consider religion unbelievably (excuse the pun) silly. I grew up in a country where atheism was/is the norm, so I find it difficult to take religious folks seriously. But as I said, I try to avoid the subject. That way, they don't feel patronised, and I don't feel like I'm entertaining clowns*. ;)

    Strangely enough, I consider many religious folks to be highly condescending in their disregard for atheists' morale. Talking to them, you'd swear you have to be religious to know the difference between right and wrong, let alone have any deep rooted sense of empathy/sympathy...emotion, really. You can see traces of this even in discussions on this forum! I find that attitude incredibly arrogant, but there you go...

    *No offence. It's just if you're not used to it at all, mass certainly ressembles a circus performance.


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    #5
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Not arrogant, correct!

    HeHe. I remember my late father, who was also a christian, joking: 'I'm not arrogant, I know there a people greater than me...........I just haven't met them yet':)


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    #6
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    F.A. wrote: »
    . I grew up in a country where atheism was/is the norm,


    Where was that, do you mind me asking?


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    #7
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    F.A. wrote: »
    Well, I usually tend to avoid the subject at all cost.

    In Religion and Spirituality Forum, subject finds you!


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    #8
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Dades wrote: »
    It's tough for atheists to avoid the arrogant label by virtue of the subject matter. By it's nature, supporting atheism in a debate is about discrediting other people's beliefs.

    On the other hand a believer with the same enthusiasm is seen to have great 'faith'.

    Pretty much agree with that.


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    #9
    F.A.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭F.A.


    Galvasean wrote: »
    In Religion and Spirituality Forum, subject finds you!

    Which is why you won't see much of me here. ;) I do enjoy reading this forum though. It's encouraging to see that not everybody in this country is bereft of logic and reason and in awe of...fairy tales.


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    #10
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    No but I get told it all the time. In fact atheists are the opposite. We're so unarrogant that we know we don't have it all sorted out and have a lot more science to discover. One new discovery opens up hundreds of unanswered questions.

    Whats arrogant is to believe you know it all. God created the universe and mankind etc etc Religion is as arrogant as you can get....but can arrogance be based on ignorance? I'm not sure. Maybe they're just ignorant :)


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    #11
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    F.A. wrote: »
    It's encouraging to see that not everybody in this country is bereft of logic and reason and in awe of...fairy tales.

    LOL, is that irony on purpose?:)


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    #12
    milod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭milod


    It can be a very thin line between confidence and arrogance, and I think anyone of faith will resent a confident viewpoint backed up by reason and logic.

    The Christian faith is based in unquestioning respect for authority, so those that free themselves from the shackles of false humility will inevitably be perceived as arrogant.

    As an atheist, no matter how delicately I phrase my argument to persons of faith, my essential point is that I don't believe in fairy stories, and they do...

    I see accusations of arrogance as inevitable :rolleyes:


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    #13
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    Arrogant .... moi?

    :D


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    #14
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    20goto10 wrote: »
    In fact atheists are the opposite.

    'Atheists' are the opposite? So there is an official atheist group is there? Which one can group them all together in the same box? I would have thought that there can be arrogant atheists, and humble atheists no?
    We're so unarrogant that we know we don't have it all sorted out and have a lot more science to discover.

    If you think the above, then you have sorted it out. No Gods etc exist. We are here by some cosmic accident, but we just don't know the exact details 'yet'. I don't think that you thinking the above makes you arrogant though. Thinking that the above makes you intellectually greater than someone who believes in God however, then we are crossing a line.


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    #15
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    It's unavoidable when your central argument is that those who embrace science and reason will reject superstition and the supernatural.


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    #16
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Arrogance is only a problem if you're out to win friends. As opposed to trying to perform the intellectual equivalent of beating someone to death with a pipe.


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    #17
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Thinking that the above makes you intellectually greater than someone who believes in God however, then we are crossing a line.
    That's more or less it really.


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    #18
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Arrogance is something that's inferred, not implied, so I don't have a problem if religious people think I'm arrogant.


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    #19
    c0rk3r
    Registered Users Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭c0rk3r


    I have yet to meet someone who lives their life through science, logic and reason. Its just not who we are.

    Science has it boundaries and cant yield the questions we seek in our lives. As much as science can determine which colour to paint your room or is the death penalty right or wrong.

    Arrogance and atheist. Well just dont talk or preach to people who are unconcerned. Ive yet to have a conversation about religion in any social circle ive been in. Sure i know whos an atheist and whos not, thats fine. Its a personal choice and should remain so. Im not going to debate or argue it. I wont change his/her mind.


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    #20
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    I hate coming off as arrogant when I'm talking to people (not so much an issue when on the internet though), but I wonder: Does one come off as arrogant if you are trying hard not to be?

    In the rare real-life religious debates I enter, I restrain myself as much as possible without folding the argument, but the very fact I have to restrain myself tells other people volumes about what I think of their beliefs.

    But yes, anyone who thinks they're right can be arrogant. People who know they are right are just stupid though, not matter which side they're on.

    Yes, I am very arrogant...But I don't see it as an intrinsically bad thing. I try to restrain myself.


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    #21
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Depends on what one means by arrogant

    On the Christian forum an atheist is "arrogant" if he thinks he has a good reason why God doesn't exist.

    It gets very tiresome being told that I am arrogant because I assume to know the nature of God (and thus why he can't exist) or judge God (and thus why if he does he is immoral) by someone who claims to have personal communications with him all the time.


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    #22
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,153 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Well I find it hard to give most religious views any respect or even to not ridicule most of it. Don't think I've ever come across the situation much in real life, not unless I'm directly asked about something. Its hard not to when I equate accepting most theist positions as that of a 40 year old still believing in Santa. No likely this is/or comes across as arrogance.


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    #23
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Indeed, It seems that many theists equate the general lack of respect for their beliefs among atheists, which is so ingrained in society, as arrogance.


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    #24
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Usually atheists come across as an intellectually superior lot.

    Im for freedom of belief for everyone and religious tolerance.

    If you argue on line with an atheist there is a smugness you dont get elsewhere - you cant just post "I dont understand what you mean" .

    I know its a contentious issue -but on one abortion thread if I didnt understand something I could post that and invariably someone would offer a very helpful explanation to a concept or scientific issue beyond my grasp. Not so with atheists.


    You are also expected to understand their in-jokes and SOH- say on the thread about the Italian comedienne and the pope - many atheist posters dont want to accept that others dont find it funny and view their humour as highly offensive and ugly..

    I find most atheists as arrogant as any dogmatic religious zealot and on-line are best left in their own little world.


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    #25
    Mena
    Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    Well, to quote someone else... When you're arguing with adults who believe in fairy tales, it's pretty difficult to not be smug and superior.


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    #26
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mena wrote: »
    Well, to quote someone else... When you're arguing with adults who believe in fairy tales, it's pretty difficult to not be smug and superior.
    when you argue with Neo-Darwinists its difficult to believe they are not apes.


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    #27
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    CDfm wrote: »
    You are also expected to understand their in-jokes and SOH- say on the thread about the Italian comedienne and the pope - many atheist posters dont want to accept that others dont find it funny and view their humour as highly offensive and ugly..

    Most small and active online communities are going to have their own in-jokes, its not really fair to level that specifically at atheists.


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    #28
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Zillah wrote: »
    Most small and active online communities are going to have their own in-jokes, its not really fair to level that specifically at atheists.
    its fair in the context of the ones ive come across


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    #29
    Mena
    Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    CDfm wrote: »
    when you argue with Neo-Darwinists its difficult to believe they are not apes.

    Uhm, we are essentially just apes, more or less :p


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    #30
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    ...with guns, unfortunately.


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    #31
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mena wrote: »
    Uhm, we are essentially just apes, more or less :p

    that hairy -huh - you could be German:p


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