964 km of motorway in Ireland by 2015.

BluntGuy · 13-09-2008 2:20pm #1

I'm sure I've posted this before, but if anyone's interested, here's a list of every motorway scheme that is sure to be finished by 2015:

Motorway Lengths 2015 (Ireland)
M50 - 45 km (28 mi) (Dublin Ring Road)
M25 - 23 km (14 mi) (Waterford Bypass)
M20 - 90 km (56 mi) (Cork-Limerick)
M17 - 25.5 km (15 mi) (Galway-Tuam)
M11 - 8 km (5 mi) (M50 Extension)
M9 - 116.5 km (73 mi) (Dublin - Waterford - via M7)
M8 - 155 km (96 mi) (Dublin - Cork - via M7)
M7 - 175 km (109 mi) (Dublin - Limerick)
M6 - 144 km (90 mi) (Dublin - Galway - via M4)
M4 - 55 km (34 mi) (Dublin - North West)
M3 - 47 km (29 mi) (Dublin - Kells)
M1 - 80 km (50 mi) (Dublin - Belfast)

964 km (602 mi) of motorway in Ireland by 2015

Note that doesn't take into account a possible 49km (30 mi) M18 motorway, a 13km (8 mi) M25 extension at New Ross, an M10 spur and various other schemes.

So what do you think?

marmurr1916 · 13-09-2008 2:42pm

Is the M20 definitely definite? Or is it maybe definite?

Do you have lengths for dual-carriageways too?

It looks likely that a very high percentage of the national primary network will be either motorway or dual-carriageway (HQDC or 2+2) within the next few years.

What a contrast from even 5 years ago!

BluntGuy · 13-09-2008 3:06pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Is the M20 definitely definite? Or is it maybe definite?

Do you have lengths for dual-carriageways too?

It looks likely that a very high percentage of the national primary network will be either motorway or dual-carriageway (HQDC or 2+2) within the next few years.

What a contrast from even 5 years ago!

I don't have the lengths for dual-carriageways sadly.

I know that large sections of the N4 and N17 are going to be upgraded to 2+2, but I don't have a definate list.

Anyway, for the sake of argument we'll say that there will be 1000 km of motorway in Ireland in 2015. What a difference between that and the few short patches we had a few years back!

Add that to the all the dual-carriageway schemes, and we've really undergone a transformation!

marmurr1916 · 13-09-2008 3:23pm

The total national primary network is about 2750 km in length. My guesstimate is that we'll have about 50% (1375 km) of motorway or dual-carriageway by 2015 if all planned schemes go ahead.

That's pretty damn impressive! I wonder how that will compare to the UK?

T Corolla · 13-09-2008 5:07pm

There will still be more railway in ireland in 2015 than motorway. When the inconnector is built and the merto north these toll bridges wont be as full.
There will be a big shift back to public transport because it will be the other options that hopefully will be efficent. I hope oil prices dont go to 200 dollars a barrell or there wont be many cars on the dualcarriage ways
Dont get me wrong i not against dualcarriage ways they have made life alot easier for the whole country i just feel that more money should be placed into public transport. I feel that there is far to much money spent on them and there should be a shift in focus to public transport like some european countries who in the past have started to spend more on rail infrastructure than motorways. In my heart i feel alot more money should have been put into public transport at the start of the celtic tiger we probably be as far on with a modern rail infracture and ultimely a efficent rail company to run it.When the government has to answer for their carbon emmisions in the future they may shift the focus to the public transport system ran than the cushy PPP system

Sponge Bob · 13-09-2008 5:18pm

T Corolla wrote: »

There will be a big shift back to public transport

Not if cars are much faster than trains . The Galway - Dublin train will be no faster than it was in 1968 or even possibly 1948 ( well over 2 hours) while a car will do it in less than 2 hours outside the rush hour ...by 2010.

The move will more likely be to EXPRESS buses at the expense of rail post 2010 .

The Motorways will simply murder Iarnród Éireann I fear . A fully functioning interconnector is at least 10 years away seeing as Iarnród Éireann only propose to build part of it ( the underground bit in Dublin ) for starters .

The stretch of line between Ballyfermot and Inchicore will be a severely bottlenecked twin track with grossly insufficient capacity for peak commuter and intercity rail for a long time to come .

Only when the 3 mile section from Heuston to Cherry Orchard is widened to a full 4 Track and with full separation between Dart and Intercity can we hope to see an expeditious Intercity Rail Service .

That has not even been designed properly and that's why its about 10 years away .

Tipsy Mac · 13-09-2008 5:27pm

Lots more tolls on the way I'd say :mad:

Lennoxschips · 13-09-2008 5:30pm

Why in the name of god do we need a motorway between Galway and Tuam, or a motorway to New Ross?

The insanity.

Sponge Bob · 13-09-2008 6:18pm

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Why in the name of god do we need a motorway between Galway and Tuam, or a motorway to New Ross?

The insanity.

We need a motorway to connect the motorways, its called the Atlantic Road Corridor and will run substantially from New Ross to Cork and then to Sligo and Derry but with smidges of 2+2 on the less trafficked sections or even single lane in Donegal and Leitrim which is largely complete by now .

We will then have the Dublin Outer Orbital which is a northward extension of the M9 to Navan and thence to the M1/M2 at Dunleer I believe or possibly to Balbriggan instead where a new port is proposed .

At the moment the only way to travel on decent roads from Derry to Cork or from Belfast to Waterford is via the bloody Westlink the way things are now designed .

Route Diversity is essential , a la the German Grid as are modern interregional links not via poxy Dublin bottlenecks.

I fear that the Atlantic Corridor is a very hot potato in the dept of Finance at present and may be chopped back to a Cork- Galway Motorway at best with nothing north of Athenry or east of Midleton bar a new stretch between Strabane and Derry .

Tuam and New Ross may even be ignored until Transport 51 is beeing pimped by the politicians .

D.L.R. · 13-09-2008 6:19pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not if cars are much faster than trains . The Galway - Dublin train will be no faster than it was in 1968 or even possibly 1948 ( well over 2 hours) while a car will do it in less than 2 hours outside the rush hour ...by 2010.

The move will more likely be to EXPRESS buses at the expense of rail post 2010 .

The Motorways will simply murder Iarnród Éireann I fear . A fully functioning interconnector is at least 10 years away seeing as Iarnród Éireann only propose to build part of it ( the underground bit in Dublin ) for starters .

The stretch of line between Ballyfermot and Inchicore will be a severely bottlenecked twin track with grossly insufficient capacity for peak commuter and intercity rail for a long time to come .

Only when the 3 mile section from Heuston to Cherry Orchard is widened to a full 4 Track and with full separation between Dart and Intercity can we hope to see an expeditious Intercity Rail Service .

That has not even been designed properly and that's why its about 10 years away .

Hmm I was worried the Kildare Rail Project didn't cover Inchicore-Heuston. It would be a huge blunder if the gap wasn't accounted for, surely not even Irish Rail are that dumb. Its another example of the shortcomings in our planning though. Four-track is still only a vague concept in Dublin, instead of the daily reality it should be. Lots of hemming and hawing will be done before that tunnel opens.

Even putting that to one side, the same Dart line will still have to share track with the Belfast and the northern commuter trains at the other end. And the other Dart line will have to share most of its track too.

I can't see intercity rail remaining a serious travel option in two years time unless all these lines are somehow quadded, or the ticket price drops by half.

Sponge Bob · 13-09-2008 6:52pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Hmm I was worried the Kildare Rail Project didn't cover Inchicore-Heuston. It would be a huge blunder if the gap wasn't accounted for, surely not even Irish Rail are that dumb.

They made a serious tactical mistake . It is too late to undo that now. Not protecting and augmenting the Inter City case in the face of clear and present danger from Motorways was stupid . Cullen even signed a railway order from Heuston to Sallins for them years back .

I can't see intercity rail remaining a serious travel option in two years time unless all these lines are somehow quadded, or the ticket price drops by half.

They should do the interconnector tunnel and the 3 miles of missing quad together as well as provide Dart stations on this quad in both Ballyfermot and in Inchicore . They cannot do that right now or in time for the completion of the major Motorways which parallel their Intercity Network.

It would take 2 years to redesign the interconnector to take this into account and they fear that the government will have no money at all by then .

Therefore they have moved somewhat prematurely to get the funds for the underground interconnector section as fast as they can . Note that the recent PR campaign by Iarnród does not include any works north of Connolly or out towards Maynooth either.

AND the price €50 ret to Galway vs €15 on an express bus to O Connell Bridge :eek:

Lennoxschips · 13-09-2008 6:57pm

So first we build a radial motorway network from from the capital a la France, and then when that's finished, decide to build a German grid system as well? Some planning.

I've been on the N25 from Rosslare to Cork many times. It's extremely quiet. Why anyone would want to turn it into a motorway is beyond me. Alas, the developers must be enriched.

BluntGuy · 13-09-2008 9:40pm

Lennoxschips wrote: »

So first we build a radial motorway network from from the capital a la France, and then when that's finished, decide to build a German grid system as well? Some planning.

I've been on the N25 from Rosslare to Cork many times. It's extremely quiet. Why anyone would want to turn it into a motorway is beyond me. Alas, the developers must be enriched.

Well parts of N25 could definately do with an upgrade. The Wateford and New Ross bypasses are essential.

I know what you mean. The whole route doesn't HAVE to be a motorway, but if they're going to upgrade it, it may as well be a 'once-and-for-all' solution.

We're spending loads now, but it will mean there'll be less to spend on road infrastructure in the future. With a quality motorway/dual-carriageway network in place, road travel will be safer, more efficient and quicker.

By the way, I am not neglecting the importance of public transport. PT is important but at the end of the day, any country still needs good roads to operate efficiently. We can't use the train to go everywhere (that said, I lived in London for a few years and hardly ever had to drive - I always used the tube).

Amtmann · 13-09-2008 10:42pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I fear that the Atlantic Corridor is a very hot potato in the dept of Finance at present and may be chopped back to a Cork- Galway Motorway at best with nothing north of Athenry or east of Midleton bar a new stretch between Strabane and Derry.

Am I right in saying you're sounding a more optimistic note these days, SpongeBob? You were fairly certain a month ago that no roads would be built (bar the interurbans); have you been hearing differently of late?

trellheim · 14-09-2008 11:12am

me thinks the politicians are deciding [ and will be up till mid oct when the Budget and Estimates ]

Zoney · 14-09-2008 11:33am

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Why in the name of god do we need a motorway between Galway and Tuam, or a motorway to New Ross?

The insanity.

The traffic volumes between Galway and Tuam was about 23480 AADT last year. Considering the capacity of at grade dual carriageway is 26500, at the very least, grade separated dual carriageway (with hard shoulders) is required. Once you are building that, there's little difference in cost to make it a motorway, which is a safer and more sensibly restricted type of road.

Such a post as yours, which considers necessary infrastructure to be an insanity just because it is in the West (ah sure no one really lives there), is typical of the mindset that keeps migration to Dublin ongoing and does everything possible to ensure the regions underperform. That costs Dublin more money than sensibly investing now for future payoff (should have been done decades ago and not had half the country moving to Dublin and making the city even more of a mess and the regions less sustainable).

Zoney · 14-09-2008 11:48am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The Motorways will simply murder Iarnród Éireann I fear .

The motorways may affect public transport in general, but they are unlikely to specifically affect Iarnród Éireann more than bus. Why? Because the buses are limited to 50mph/80km/h, and still have to detour into towns to pick up passengers. Sure there will be some "express" bus services, e.g. on Cork-Dublin. But what is the train like on that line? Parts of it up to 90mph/145km/h. Of course, Dublin-Belfast is another busy route suited to express buses - the real serious problem on the rail network is bringing Dublin-Belfast up to scratch.

Another example where rail should be OK despite motorway/DC is on the N18. The reopened Ennis-Athenry part of WRC should allow train services that while not speedy (at first anyway), will compare with the bus. For buses, there is no avoiding time-wasting detours into Shannon Airport and Ennis, nevermind usually stopping at Bunratty and Gort. The buses will either be stuck with the old road out of Gort, or make the detour to Athenry on the new one at 80km/h unlike other traffic which at 120km/h will have a time saving despite the detour. All of this doesn't even begin to address the mess that getting into/out of Limerick or Galway is at the wrong time of day (only going to get worse).

Lennoxschips · 14-09-2008 11:55am

Zoney wrote: »

The traffic volumes between Galway and Tuam was about 23480 AADT last year. Considering the capacity of at grade dual carriageway is 26500, at the very least, grade separated dual carriageway (with hard shoulders) is required. Once you are building that, there's little difference in cost to make it a motorway, which is a safer and more sensibly restricted type of road.

Such a post as yours, which considers necessary infrastructure to be an insanity just because it is in the West (ah sure no one really lives there), is typical of the mindset that keeps migration to Dublin ongoing and does everything possible to ensure the regions underperform. That costs Dublin more money than sensibly investing now for future payoff (should have been done decades ago and not had half the country moving to Dublin and making the city even more of a mess and the regions less sustainable).

Yeah, I'm not from Dublin.

The reason there are so many cars on the road between Galway and Tuam is because there is no proper planning in Ireland. Sprawling housing estates with no facilities are erected on greenfield sites well outside the city, on lands owned by the friends of politicians. Then a motorway is built to said estates with no facilities, so people have to drive back and forth to get things done. And why? There was plenty of land in and around Galway city. The commutes aren't necessary. But then land owners in Tuam wouldn't be happy now would they... It's a big joke.

Bad planning is happening all over Ireland, including Galway and including Dublin.

fricatus · 14-09-2008 11:57am

Lennoxschips wrote: »

So first we build a radial motorway network from from the capital a la France, and then when that's finished, decide to build a German grid system as well? Some planning.

I've been on the N25 from Rosslare to Cork many times. It's extremely quiet. Why anyone would want to turn it into a motorway is beyond me. Alas, the developers must be enriched.

You've obviously never seen the queue coming into New Ross from the Waterford side on a wet Tuesday evening in November. It's one of the worst bottlenecks in the country.

The trouble is that all the journalists in the Indo and Times will give out about Moate and Abbeyleix when they travel down the country, but none of them work in Waterford and live in SW Wexford.

Whatever about the commuters; they know how long it takes. How many people bound for the ferry to France miss it because they underestimate the sort of bottleneck that exists at a small town of 5,000 people?

Lennoxschips · 14-09-2008 12:01pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well parts of N25 could definately do with an upgrade. The Wateford and New Ross bypasses are essential.

I know what you mean. The whole route doesn't HAVE to be a motorway, but if they're going to upgrade it, it may as well be a 'once-and-for-all' solution.

We're spending loads now, but it will mean there'll be less to spend on road infrastructure in the future. With a quality motorway/dual-carriageway network in place, road travel will be safer, more efficient and quicker.

I must have driven the N25 between Rosslare and Cork about 10 times. Not once have I encountered a traffic jam on it. Or even a remote amount of traffic at all. Only through Waterford city itself, but that's due to being in the city itself.

Many bits of it have already been upgraded, at great cost (Youghal bypass for example), to very good quality single carriageway road. 100 km/hr is now possible along most of the route.

To now go and turn that into motorway would be insanity.

murphaph · 14-09-2008 12:30pm

Zoney wrote: »

The traffic volumes between Galway and Tuam was about 23480 AADT last year. Considering the capacity of at grade dual carriageway is 26500, at the very least, grade separated dual carriageway (with hard shoulders) is required. Once you are building that, there's little difference in cost to make it a motorway, which is a safer and more sensibly restricted type of road.

Such a post as yours, which considers necessary infrastructure to be an insanity just because it is in the West (ah sure no one really lives there), is typical of the mindset that keeps migration to Dublin ongoing and does everything possible to ensure the regions underperform. That costs Dublin more money than sensibly investing now for future payoff (should have been done decades ago and not had half the country moving to Dublin and making the city even more of a mess and the regions less sustainable).

Last time I looked New Ross was in the Southeast! I agree with your views on the M17/M18/M20 corridor in that they are a reasonable investment and not insanity-however you do yourself a disservice when you assume the guy is 'anti-west' (whatever that is)-it looks very parochial. He simply believes traffic figures don't warrant motorway links and we disagree, no more no less.

murphaph · 14-09-2008 12:35pm

Lennoxschips wrote: »

I must have driven the N25 between Rosslare and Cork about 10 times. Not once have I encountered a traffic jam on it. Or even a remote amount of traffic at all. Only through Waterford city itself, but that's due to being in the city itself.

Many bits of it have already been upgraded, at great cost (Youghal bypass for example), to very good quality single carriageway road. 100 km/hr is now possible along most of the route.

To now go and turn that into motorway would be insanity.

You are correct that if a road has been improved in recent years and is functioning well within design specs, it should be left alone and resources used wlsewhere. The likes of the N20/N18/N17 however have had no bypasses built along the proposed stretches of motorway. In these areas I think we should skip the inbetween stage and build it to modern motorway standard (narrow median for much reduced land take, that is).

Certainly the improved stretches of N25 should be low on the priority list when such deathtrap roads as the N20 are alive and kicking.

bk · 14-09-2008 12:51pm

Zoney wrote: »

The motorways may affect public transport in general, but they are unlikely to specifically affect Iarnród Éireann more than bus. Why? Because the buses are limited to 50mph/80km/h, and still have to detour into towns to pick up passengers. Sure there will be some "express" bus services, e.g. on Cork-Dublin. But what is the train like on that line? Parts of it up to 90mph/145km/h. Of course, Dublin-Belfast is another busy route suited to express buses - the real serious problem on the rail network is bringing Dublin-Belfast up to scratch.

The average speed of the train on the Cork to Dublin route is less then 60mph (160 miles in 2 hours 45 minutes), so a bus service can definitely give it a run for its money (note few intercity buses keep to the 50mph limit).

Irish Rail is in big trouble with all the new motorways, you can already see it on the M1. Belfast is now just a 2 hour trip up the M1. The train takes between 2:07 and 2:16 hours. I've many friends from Belfast and they wouldn't dream of taking the train, the car is so much more convenient.

The same is now starting to happen on the Cork to Dublin route and many others. In order for train to be successful it needs to be significantly faster then by car, not equal to or just slightly faster.

BluntGuy · 14-09-2008 1:54pm

Lennoxschips wrote: »

I must have driven the N25 between Rosslare and Cork about 10 times. Not once have I encountered a traffic jam on it. Or even a remote amount of traffic at all. Only through Waterford city itself, but that's due to being in the city itself.

Many bits of it have already been upgraded, at great cost (Youghal bypass for example), to very good quality single carriageway road. 100 km/hr is now possible along most of the route.

To now go and turn that into motorway would be insanity.

Well I've experienced PAINFUL levels of congestion on that route. Waterford City and New Ross are both choked at times. Bypass routes must be provided there.

There are of course other routes across Ireland that need upgrade works such as the N20, parts of the N17 and so on, but at the end of the day, Cork and Waterford are two of Ireland's largest cities and should have a high-capacity transport link between them.

Besides, the N25, N17, N18, N20 and N15 are all being dealt with as the 'Atlantic Corridor' route anyway. This debate is only about which sections should get built first.

Lennoxschips · 14-09-2008 4:48pm

like i said, there's traffic in waterford city itself, it could do with a bypass

but recently upgraded bits of the n25 in between towns themselves are fine the way they are. there's no need to build a motorway there.

Cork and Waterford are two of Ireland's largest cities and should have a high-capacity transport link between them.

the capacity of the existing link is already well above what is needed. yes, while the quality of some bits needs to be improved for reasons of safety, the capacity is not an issue. there is not a shortage of road capacity between cork and waterford.

marmurr1916 · 14-09-2008 7:01pm

Zoney wrote: »

The motorways may affect public transport in general, but they are unlikely to specifically affect Iarnród Éireann more than bus. Why? Because the buses are limited to 50mph/80km/h, and still have to detour into towns to pick up passengers. Sure there will be some "express" bus services, e.g. on Cork-Dublin. But what is the train like on that line? Parts of it up to 90mph/145km/h. Of course, Dublin-Belfast is another busy route suited to express buses - the real serious problem on the rail network is bringing Dublin-Belfast up to scratch.

Another example where rail should be OK despite motorway/DC is on the N18. The reopened Ennis-Athenry part of WRC should allow train services that while not speedy (at first anyway), will compare with the bus. For buses, there is no avoiding time-wasting detours into Shannon Airport and Ennis, nevermind usually stopping at Bunratty and Gort. The buses will either be stuck with the old road out of Gort, or make the detour to Athenry on the new one at 80km/h unlike other traffic which at 120km/h will have a time saving despite the detour. All of this doesn't even begin to address the mess that getting into/out of Limerick or Galway is at the wrong time of day (only going to get worse).

I travelled from Cork-Dublin by bus last week. The bus went non-stop except for a 10 minute stopover at Urlingford. It took only 3 hours 25 minutes from the centre of Cork to the centre of Dublin (O'Connell Bridge). That compares with a train time of 2 hours 50 minutes from Cork Kent Station (10 minutes walk even without heavy luggage from Cork city centre) to Dublin Heuston (15 minutes by bus or Luas to near O'Connell St).

When the motorways are complete, and genuine non-stop services, using coaches with on-board toilets, are introduced, then Irish Rail could be in serious trouble. The bus journeys will take approximately the same time but will be significantly cheaper. I've used buses a lot and there's definitely a demand for several non-stop services per day between Dublin and most of the main towns/cities.

There'll also probably be demand for a Cork-Limerick-Galway service, possibly with a stop outside Limerick with a shuttle bus to/from the city centre, especially when the M20 and N18 are complete.

Sponge Bob · 14-09-2008 7:30pm

A poster on the Platform 11 site made this point very well 2 years ago

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=6993&postcount=17

There is a relationship between passenger numbers and journey times, for every 1% reduction in journey time you get a proportional increase in passenger numbers

BUT

There is a long standing rule of thumb you need to average 75 mph end to end, for the modern world and the 120 kph motorway limit its more like 90 mph end to end now.

And that is the problem with the trains , that and the cost

bk · 14-09-2008 8:42pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I travelled from Cork-Dublin by bus last week. The bus went non-stop except for a 10 minute stopover at Urlingford. It took only 3 hours 25 minutes from the centre of Cork to the centre of Dublin (O'Connell Bridge). That compares with a train time of 2 hours 50 minutes from Cork Kent Station (10 minutes walk even without heavy luggage from Cork city centre) to Dublin Heuston (15 minutes by bus or Luas to near O'Connell St).

Very true, once the motorway is complete and you have non stop buses, it will likely equal the train.

I can see the intercity train services enter an era of stagnation over the next 20 years as buses on the motorways equal the trains but lots cheaper and other people decide to drive themselves (even fast then train).

During the next 20 years funding will be focused on commuter rail, not intercity rail. Only when all the major commuter rail projects are finished (Metro North, Dart Underground, Luas and future projects like Metro South, etc.) will focus return to the intercity rail routes and they might get the necessary investment to increase speeds and compete with the road network.

marmurr1916 · 14-09-2008 9:05pm

I hope you're wrong about that. We need to improve the railway infrastructure so that inter-city train journey times are reduced considerably (by at least 33%) and to allow for more frequent services on busier routes.

Sponge Bob · 14-09-2008 9:09pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

(by at least 33%) and to allow for more frequent services on busier routes.

That means separation by quad tracking. No such projects are planned bar Cherry Orchard-Sallins which could even be ready in 2009.

But it is not enough .

G_R · 14-09-2008 9:14pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I hope you're wrong about that. We need to improve the railway infrastructure so that inter-city train journey times are reduced considerably (by at least 33%) and to allow for more frequent services on busier routes.

if this does happen it will probably push up prices even more and then nobody will be able to use them anyway. IrishRail needs to regulated in someway because their prices are way to expensive

964 km of motorway in Ireland by 2015.

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