Is the Media Too Soft on Declan Kidney and the Irish Management

Thornley doesn't want to risk damaging the relationship with his contacts within the squad. Namely, Kidney.

This forum is too soft on him. The man is an embarrassment, yet people rush to defend him on the basis of his performances 5/6 years ago.

We need to do what lancaster did for england, a lot of articles in the english media are praising him for "cutting out the dead wood", we need to follow suit, too many players coasting on past performances

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Again look back at the AIs in 2010...

At the time Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan were both starting for their provinces. Neither were in the Irish squad at all. At the time the Ireland scrum was a shambles.

We all knew John Hayes was nearly done. We all knew Tony Buckley wasn't nearly capable of playing at international level. But they were the two Tightheads in the squad. And in a game against Samoa when we should have been testing out youth and looking at our options we started John Hayes at tighthead.

Fast forward a year and neither were involved in the team any more after injuries to both forced Kidney to play Mike Ross (who everyone could see was the better player, apart from the Irish management) and he put in the best 6 Nations performance from a tighthead in the professional era. And so yet again an injury forced the right selection onto Kidney and yet again proved the brainless rabble right.

It is just incredibly disappointing to see this Irish team continually persisting with an approach that has repeatedly failed us and a coach who seems completely oblivious to that fact.

The bolded part is just not true. At the time of the '10 AI's Buckley had come of the much fabled heroics against New Zealand and had started the season well for Munster. He had a decent set of internationals. We know now that it was time wasted, but as I'm repeatedly said on here; he looked like he was starting to come good.

That does not excuse Hayes' start against Samoa, but posters are using Buckley's implosion in 2011 to deride his selection in 2010.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

2-3 years ago he was 20 years old... So hardly fair to judge him based on that.

I haven't seen a huge amount from him but I wouldn't write him off yet. I would put Macklin and Hagan ahead of him as prospects but I hope he continues to improve. He was very poor for the Wolfhounds but at least he has looked good for Munster the odd time.

I don't think anyone is too confident with Archer's scrummaging ability, but what I will say is that he has improved immeasurably. It was less than a year ago that he somehow managed to scrummage outside the opposition LH in one scrum like. He is now starting to be able to hold his own in the scrum and hopefully he'll continue his improvement.

desertcircus wrote: »

At this stage I'm not sure how much blame can be placed on Kidney rather than the IRFU themselves. The decisions which have been made regarding the national team have been genuinely mystifying for quite a while now.

Just as an illustration of what we could have done: Ireland and England both went to the World Cup and were knocked out at quarter-final level. England came home, threw a collective knicker-fit, and sacked more or less the entire management team, before handing the keys to an interim coach who dropped half the first fifteen and gave the captaincy to a man with one cap behind him. Ireland came home, changed outhalves, and finished in their second worst position since the addition of Italy to the tournament, being beaten heavily by that same England team.

The English had been beaten off the park in last year's fixture. Their players had all taken beatings at the hands of Irish provinces. Yet they savaged us. And it wasn't even a particularly big shock to see it happening; disappointment and failure come naturally to the national team in a way that they don't to the provincial sides. Something is rotten in the way the national team is run, and until we find it and fix it, we're going to be stuck with the same cycle of being happy with the odd Triple Crown and the same sense of grim resignation when players with Heineken Cup medals around their necks get beaten by players who are lucky to make the knockouts of their domestic leagues.

Its called the moral grand slam; coming back from Paris twice unbeaten this year; sure we stopped France from winning the grand slam; job done; everything is sweet

Sindri wrote: »

I don't think any one has that attitude, least of all the players.

I wasnt having a go at the players; some posters on think that the players just arent good enough; my point here is that I think the players are good enough; people shouldnt be happy with beating Scotland and Italy every year and losing to England, Wales and France. As a team Ireland are better than the moral grand slam.

molloyjh wrote: »

dougieruggie wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

Thornely's article, not even remotely critical of Kidney.

Not only is he refusing to be critical of Kidney but he's also wishing another coach out of a job. That he doesn't want to see Lancaster succeed is, IMO, petty and bitter. The guy deserves a huge amount of credit for what he's done and the RFU could do a hell of a lot worse.

Ah but it makes sense when you realise he's not in bed with Lancaster and can speak his mind in that regard.
If DK is still in charge for the NZ game there's no point in even watching the games tbh. This is a team that gave up against the old enemy, doesn't get much worse then that for a manager and all Thornley can do is make excuses about props.

From this (apologies to sean sherlock copy and paste from LF fans website)

So many blips twixt this (world) cup and lip

One can rarely recall such doom and gloom, or even downright anger, as hangs over the apparent decline of an Ireland side at the moment, writes Gerry Thornley .

Perhaps we in the media, and by extension the public, over-reacted to the wins over South Africa and Australia less than a year ago and the third Triple Crown in four years that followed. Nevertheless, close your eyes and remember, or better still press play on the videos. That was cracking, modern-day, high intensity, highly skilled rugby.

Granted, the Springboks and the Wallabies had altogether longer-term priorities. Jake White brought over a largely second string team. John Connolly and his brains trust were trying different combinations with a view to getting the balance of their squad right. They were building toward this World Cup.

Ireland had more short-term objectives, were at the optimum early stage of their season and were in rude health in terms of injuries. Even so, the pace and accuracy of those performances, the clearing out, the offloading, the running lines, the lineout, the maul, the support play and the accuracy were light years away from where the team is now.

The poorness of play, anxiousness and alarming drop in standards from those performances to the recent wins over Namibia and Georgia have to be viewed in the context of three ominously sluggish warm-up games.

One cannot subscribe to the theory that this team has become a bad one overnight, for as O'Sullivan sharply observed when fending a question about "two recent blips", once there's more than one blip it's no longer a blip.

Also taking into account the abortive comeback from a nervy, stalled start against France, one outstanding 80 minutes against England, the eventually thrilling dissection of Italy, their form has gone from patchy to, as O'Sullivan admitted, "stagnant".

We were never amongst the cheerleaders hereabouts, but by the same token, O'Sullivan hasn't become a bad coach, nor have those backing him up. They were in charge on those days at home to the Boks, Wallabies and England as well as Rome. But something appears to have gone horribly wrong in the planning, physical preparation, training, selection and tactics.

Far from playing the modern game as espoused by the Southern Hemisphere sides and, two nights ago, France, Ireland have retreated into their shells and talk of a high-risk game which in fact is becoming more conservative amid fear of mistakes.

Part of the problem is, seemingly, the overt attention on the hitherto 15 Untouchables, two of whom (Peter Stringer and Denis Hickie) have paid the price for the team's stagnancy. Amongst the effects are Eoin Reddan comes in virtually cold despite two years in the system, while, allowing for the awful treatment of Geordan Murphy, Gavin Duffy could be pitched it any moment after six weeks on the sidelines.

The emphasis on "team" appears to have drawn an unhealthy demarcation line within the squad and generated a certain staleness in the "team" and in the direction they're being led. O'Sullivan seems at as much of a loss as anyone. You look at Jake White feverishly bouncing thoughts and observations off newly-hired assistant coach Eddie Jones in the stands during their facile 36-0 win over England and it reminds you of how fresh ideas are often beneficial.

Most coaching shelf-lives tend to be no more than four years, six at a stretch. When Clive Woodward's went beyond that, he had at least won championships, a Grand Slam and a World Cup, but even that went quickly pear-shaped.

You wonder if the stagnancy and staleness is in part the product of the IRFU's grossly premature decision to grant O'Sullivan a four-year extension.

Amid the accolades for the "union's wisdom" in retaining "the best coach in the world", few dared question that decision but for most ex-players, coaches and foreign journalists it defied logic or belief.

The anger now being vented at O'Sullivan may well dissipate should the team spring into action on Friday and in any event should, by rights, be directed at the IRFU decision-makers who rushed to judgment. Seemingly thinking primarily of profits, rather than rugby sense, they are the ones who should be held to account, for even if O'Sullivan did hold a gun to their heads, it could only have been a water pistol.

Regardless of the last two performances the appointments committee of Neilly Jackson, Pat Whelan and Noel Murphy, along with the three men who ratified the decision, director of rugby Eddie Wigglesworth, John Hussey and CEO Philip Browne, made a risibly premature decision. No one else in the union knew about it. There was no need for it.

The World Cup is the one true, four- yearly test on a level playing field. As we said in these pages, it was akin to granting a student an A+ before sitting his finals.

This new, recently more successful generation of Ireland players despise the notion that they can't cope with the pressure of their own and the public's expectations, although there has been compelling evidence thus far that this is so. Their body language at times looks dreadful. The mood is apparently downbeat. Training is not a barrel of laughs. They look like they need a good old-fashioned piss-up. And thinking back to jam-packed hotel foyers in Melbourne four years ago, rather than a corporate lunch with overweight millionaires and union blazers, they'd be better off renewing acquaintances with their fans.

Likewise, they detest the hoary old theory that the Irish mentality is better suited to being underdogs, but maybe there will be something to it, maybe the criticism after so much praise will also sting them into anger.

When asked if France could put four tries on Ireland this Friday, Namibia's Natal Sharks prop and captain Kees Lensing said: "Yea, definitely. I must just say that I think the French are a much better outfit. I think they're a better coached side and if they just stick to their game plan, I personally believe they're just more skilled, more solid and are a better bunch of players than Ireland."

On form, Lensing is justified in his view, but in a curious way, the Ireland players might love hearing that.

And, though they might struggle to believe it at the moment, everybody still loves them and clings to the hope that they can rediscover their true selves.

To this: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

IRELAND HAVE had mostly good days against the auld enemy in latter years, and the way England celebrated only a second Six Nations win since 2003 in the fixture is testimony to a new-found respect. But when it goes bad, my word does it go bad.

Super Saturday? More saturated Saturday, or Scrum Saturday. This 30-9 beating brought to mind the 33-10 defeat here in 2008, which marked the end of the Eddie O’Sullivan reign and, rather more unfathomably, the end of Brian Ashton’s as well.

With another season on his contract, there’s no doubt about Declan Kidney’s position right now, even if the pressure on him has just been ratcheted up another couple of notches in advance of next June’s daunting three-Test tour to New Zealand.

However, in another oddity, its Stuart Lancaster who will have to re-apply for his job as English coach. Hopefully the RFU won’t give it to him, as he appears to be doing a very capable job.

With all bar three of England’s points emanating from an embarrassingly superior scrum, it also brought to mind Dean Richards’ debut game in 1986 at the same venue, when Paul Kennedy was called up for his one and only cap in place of the dropped Phil Orr and, on an icy skating rink, the number eight scored two tries off howitzer English scrums with referee Clive Norling also awarding a penalty try in a 25-20 win.

But on the day that was in it, with an expat-enlarged Green Army reviving memories of the World Cup, this was even more chastening and, potentially, more damaging. “Not good enough,” ventured Seán O’Brien, assuredly reflecting the views of all.

“Look, today hurt,” admitted Declan Kidney. “It hurt a lot and if it didn’t hurt, we shouldn’t be here. Everybody will walk away from the last 20 minutes of the game and that’s the bit that will really hurt us. But we have to take a look at the first 60 where we turned over the ball so often that if we got a few scores then all of a sudden it changes things around. Now that would have been difficult today because you have to have a platform and we didn’t have it obviously at scrummaging time.”

Taking the core of the team to the well one more time (six of the pack and six of the backs started the last four in a row) above all else, this defeat graphically demonstrated the shallowness of Ireland’s playing pool and in particular the dependency on Mike Ross staying fully fit, ideally for the entire 80 minutes every time.

This may, wrongly, be interpreted within the IRFU as further cause to press ahead with their misguided proposals regarding foreign players. But the years of investment in Tony Buckley didn’t bear any fruition and it’s not the presence of BJ Botha and John Afoa which is preventing the development of tightheads.

The schools, academies and provinces have been failing in this regard for years – even John Hayes and Ross were effectively products of the Irish and English club games.

“I’d imagine that was the thinking behind it,” said Kidney in reference to the union’s proposals before listing the other options at tighthead – Ronan Loughney, Jamie Hagan and Stephen Archer – before admitting: “It’s not something you can fast track and have a solution tomorrow but I think it’s something that’s blatantly obvious that needs to be sorted.”

The cricked neck which Ross picked up shouldn’t endanger his well-being for Leinster in their upcoming, season-defining games. There were no other scars – physical at any rate – from the game, save for the usual and, of course, the bite marks on Stephen Ferris’ right hand. Nor were there any citings of last night, although the match-citing officer has until 48 hours after the game to take action.

This sour aftertaste will linger until June. With a world ranking of eighth in the year of a World Cup draw, that three-Test assignment against the All Blacks – returning to the Eden Park scene of their coronation for their first Test since the World Cup final, followed by a first, highly-emotional first Test in Christchurch since the earthquake there – doesn’t offer much evidence of succour.

The circumstances would appear to narrow Kidney’s scope for making further change, though then again Saturday’s defeat arguably makes that more of a viable consideration.

“That’s something we could do. Obviously the thing to do now is to see how the guys perform in the coming weeks. You’re going to weigh that up with the fact that our first match was on August 4th and we have a tour to go over to New Zealand.

“So you can either run from that or you can accept the challenge full on and that’s what we need to do. We’ll pick our best players because it’s important that we represent ourselves the best we can. But, are there challenges ahead? Absolutely. Are we up for it? Without a shadow of a doubt.”

Gert Smal’s health appears to be more of a concern than was initially conveyed, but Kidney remained confident that his forwards coach would be back in situ come the New Zealand tour.

“He was ill for a while but he’s starting to recover now. I was talking to him the other day and he’s starting to get back on his feet now again. So I’ll give him another week or two before we sit down and see how he is faring. He’ll have been working with his doctors just to sort things out but there’s every sign that he will be good for June.”

He goes through Eddie but has not an iota of attacking spin for Deccie; its hear warming knowing you have friends in high places like the media.

lologram wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

Ah but it makes sense when you realise he's not in bed with Lancaster and can speak his mind in that regard.
If DK is still in charge for the NZ game there's no point in even watching the games tbh. This is a team that gave up against the old enemy, doesn't get much worse then that for a manager and all Thornley can do is make excuses about props.

...and star signs and chicken entrails and comets and...

Thornley has become the King of Excuses. In the words of Dr. Cox: "When you hear hoofsteps, you should think horses not zebras."

When Ireland play badly for years, with the wrong squad and wrong tactics and implode against England you should think Kidney, not Tom Court or magic or ghosts or whatever other nonsense Thornley's going on about

Exactly and now poor Tom Court is getting a hiding in the press and we're all of a sudden in dire straights on the prop front. It's old news at this stage but Court aint no TH, decent LH as his performances this season have shown. Thornley should be ashamed of himself putting such drivel down on paper and he's not alone either. Jaysus even steady Eddie had the decency to go when he knew the game was up but it looks like DK will hang on to the very last.