State spending €3million on communion rituals

magicbastarder · 02-02-2012 4:10pm

i wouldn't have expected that. sinn fein is a declared secular party, isn't it?

Penn · 02-02-2012 4:16pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wouldn't have expected that. sinn fein is a declared secular party, isn't it?

Mary Lou is a declared "I oppose every decision made by everyone" whinger though

Zamboni · 02-02-2012 4:18pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wouldn't have expected that. sinn fein is a declared secular party, isn't it?

Well, I saw her shopping for communion outfits in Debenhams about three weeks ago...no joke.

Liamario · 02-02-2012 6:49pm

I understand that Mary Lou McDonald too a swipe at Eamon Gilmore's non-belief.... anyone know what she said?

keepritephysio · 02-02-2012 7:02pm

MrPudding wrote: »

To be honest I think this is a slightly less evil than some of the other stuff I have heard. A few years a go there was a nun on NewsTalk 106, the George Hook programme I think, who worked in an organisation that provided help and support for prostitutes. Apparently the number of working prostitutes in the state massively increases during the first communion period as women go on the game temporarily to help gathering the money required. Pretty disgusting.

This nun, can’t remember her name, this was years ago, said it was up to the parish priest to decide what was worn. She called for them to declare school uniforms should be worn. For some reason this does not seem to be something that has caught on…

MrP

What a sensible idea! The Church could make a rule tomorrow that only a SIMPLE robe worn over clothes would be acceptable for First Holy Communion. This could be provided by the schools to be used year after year. All the children would look the same and could concentrate on the ceremony rather than their appearance. How could that be wrong?

Liamario · 02-02-2012 7:10pm

Apparently she said something on the lines of- whatever your religious views are, these children deserved to be dressed appropriately...

Now if we were talking about muslim children or a religious fate where children are required to wear diamonds as part of a ceremony; would she feel as strong about it?!?!

(RHETORICAL QUESTION)

gbee · 02-02-2012 7:18pm

keepritephysio wrote: »

How could that be wrong?

It's awful. It is common now with confirmations and as time passes the children are discarding the roles as soon as they are confirmed and the fashion show begins.

It doesn't actually stop anything as the glamour is worn underneath.

Uniforms, you know the child spends enough time in the uniform already. The children are very unhappy for their conformation, and especially when three or more small parishes combine in one church and some are dressed to the nines and others in their school uniform.

Another side of the uniform is it is almost always brand new too ~ so the expense continues, some children disobey the uniform as they can't afford to buy a new one if there are no more sibling to pass it down to.

For a girl especially, the dressing up is a major part, girls love the white dress and mums just adore their boys in jackets and long trousers. It's a special day and while people may need assistance, the extra SW payments should be stopped.

One of my own children was dressed by the school and another IR£70 jacket [1987] was purchased by a God Parent and that went on to dress three more boys in time.

goose2005 · 02-02-2012 8:39pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

what if they're in a school which does not enforce a uniform-only policy during communion? i'd feel a bit heartless telling my kid they're going to be the one in their school uniform when everyone else is in a dress.

How about telling them that they can have a dress if they go to Mass every Sunday the rest of their lives, attend regular confession, study the Bible and Catholic doctrine and obey all Catholic social and moral teaching. That'd sort out the wheat from the chaff (and as our everso kind and merciful god tells us, "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.")

MrPudding wrote: »

To be honest I think this is a slightly less evil than some of the other stuff I have heard. A few years a go there was a nun on NewsTalk 106, the George Hook programme I think, who worked in an organisation that provided help and support for prostitutes. Apparently the number of working prostitutes in the state massively increases during the first communion period as women go on the game temporarily to help gathering the money required. Pretty disgusting.

That sounds like nonsense to me - there'd be no increase in demand in the same period, so I don't see why there would be a huge increase in supply.

Bookworm85 · 02-02-2012 10:31pm

I nearly fell off my chair today when I heard this!

when I was unemployed I volunteered in a charity shop in cork, they regularly got donations of communion dresses and other boys clothes (suits, trousers, waistcoats etc) that would have been suitable for the occasion. They we're all for sale for at least 1/3 of the going rate (well the dresses were anyway) and they hardly ever shifted.

However, just across the street is a well known shop that sells communion wear and people were practically queuing out the door!

Anyway, classing this as an "exceptional need" is beggars belief! An exceptional need is when you can't pay for medicine or put food on the table ffs. Now I know times are tough, and I spent enough time on the dole to know how hard it can be to make ends meet. I managed to go to 3 weddings last year while unemployed, and I did it by managing my money, yes I had cut back (even further) on spending, but I managed. There were 2 other weddings that year that I would have loved to go to, but the money wasn't there so I didn't go!

Hotblack Desiato · 02-02-2012 11:41pm

It's a terrible decision that they reviewed this, and decided to keep it even in a restricted form. Typical political fudge though.

The State should under no circumstances whatsoever subsidise religious practise. End of.

If this is 'austerity' I have no idea what people would call the society my parents grew up in. Or even the one I grew up in, come to think of it...

lynski · 03-02-2012 12:00am

I am in shock that this payment exists in this day and age.
There is no way this money should be given out for this.
My communion dress was made by an aunt, i wore it for as long as i could afterwards at mass each week. My sister got a new dress as she was tiny and one could not be borrowed and the other sister wore a borrowed dress, there was no money for anything else.
As an atheist I am appalled by communion in schools anyway, but paying for the stupid dresses? crazy country.

magicbastarder · 03-02-2012 12:45am

ninja900 wrote: »

The State should under no circumstances whatsoever subsidise religious practise. End of.

this is my beef. they still do. 90% of the national schools they fund are under catholic patronage, so they are by default supporting a system where people have to send their kids to schools where attending communion is a default choice. and first communion is not a zero cost event, especially for schools which do not insist on a uniform-only policy (which are plenty).

i don't disagree with the reduction in the payment, but as far as i am concerned, the government's first duty is to end their implicit support of first communion, and then they can justify reducing the hardship payments.

Daftendirekt · 03-02-2012 3:04am

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is my beef. they still do. 90% of the national schools they fund are under catholic patronage, so they are by default supporting a system where people have to send their kids to schools where attending communion is a default choice. and first communion is not a zero cost event, especially for schools which do not insist on a uniform-only policy (which are plenty).

i don't disagree with the reduction in the payment, but as far as i am concerned, the government's first duty is to end their implicit support of first communion, and then they can justify reducing the hardship payments.

I don't see why it has to be a choice between spending a bomb on communion-wear and a school uniform. You can find plenty of sharp clothing in Penny's or Dunne's on a budget. And in post Celtic Tiger Ireland, with the retail sector struggling, even some of the more upmarket clothing shops are regularly selling stuff at discount prices.

And if you're really struggling to stick to a reasonable budget, isn't this kind of thing exactly what Credit Unions are for?

magicbastarder · 03-02-2012 11:59am

it's still going to cost at minimum maybe €50 or €100 quid for the day. and some people simply don't have that handy.

eyescreamcone · 03-02-2012 12:15pm

Dress your child up in lederhosen if you like.
However, the state should provide zero towards this mullarky.
Next they'll be looking for a contribution towards their wedding dress.
Crazy carry on!!!

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 12:17pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's still going to cost at minimum maybe €50 or €100 quid for the day. and some people simply don't have that handy.

And? I don't have the money to go to the cinema, so I won't go.

If you can't save 50-100 quid in 7 years then there's no hope for you.

magicbastarder · 03-02-2012 12:28pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

And? I don't have the money to go to the cinema, so I won't go.

is the state placing you in a position where it's expected that you will go, and opting out will potentially cause tension between you and your children's school, and making your kid feel left out? thought not.

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 12:37pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

is the state placing you in a position where it's expected that you will go, and opting out will potentially cause tension between you and your children's school, and making your kid feel left out? thought not.

I didn't realise the taxpayer is responsible for making sure other people's children don't feel left out.

Why isn't the parent responsible for this charge? How are they unable to afford it when they know years in advance that they will need it? Should the taxpayer also subsidize new Nike runners so the poor kid doesn't feel inadequate next to his other classmates who's parents can afford such luxuries? I remember when I was a kid I had a pair of ''Nicks'' runners, oh the embarrassment!! For football I had to wear my brother's boots, he's 5 years older than me, imagine my embarrassment as a goalie when I can barely kick a ball because I'm wearing boots that are way too big? Should the tax payer pay for these as well?

Zamboni · 03-02-2012 12:44pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's still going to cost at minimum maybe €50 or €100 quid for the day. and some people simply don't have that handy.

They can still apply for that kind of money as an ENP from the CWO.

magicbastarder · 03-02-2012 12:45pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Should the taxpayer also subsidize new Nike runners so the poor kid doesn't feel inadequate next to his other classmates who's parents can afford such luxuries?

i'll explain it again; the state are not responsible for upholding a system where nike runners are the default choice for kids. that's the crux.
if first communion was not a core activity in the national school system, it would be ludicrous to suggest that the government should have any responsibility in financial matters arising from it.
but it is a core activity - and that in itself is ludicrous - so the government has to take ownership of a problem they are perpetuating.

i do appreciate that there are moves afoot to deal with this.

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 1:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'll explain it again; the state are not responsible for upholding a system where nike runners are the default choice for kids. that's the crux.
if first communion was not a core activity in the national school system, it would be ludicrous to suggest that the government should have any responsibility in financial matters arising from it.
but it is a core activity - and that in itself is ludicrous - so the government has to take ownership of a problem they are perpetuating.

i do appreciate that there are moves afoot to deal with this.

It's a core activity that doesn't actually cost the parents any money, what does cost money are the optional extras such as pretty little dresses and suits. No one is forcing parents to buy these and the government should not be subsidizing optional extras just so some kids won't feel a little embarrassed.

Again, why aren't the parents able to save 50-100 in the 7 years leading up to the communion?

MrPudding · 03-02-2012 1:35pm

gbee wrote: »

Another side of the uniform is it is almost always brand new too ~ so the expense continues, some children disobey the uniform as they can't afford to buy a new one if there are no more sibling to pass it down to.

This arguement is fairly crap. Yes, the unifrom may be bought new, but it has a purpose other than communion and will be used more than once.

The expense doe snot continue, it is an expense that has already been taken into acocunt. Aside form that, I am pretty sure there is help for families that cannot afford to pay for uniforms, and that is something I would support.

goose2005 wrote: »

That sounds like nonsense to me - there'd be no increase in demand in the same period, so I don't see why there would be a huge increase in supply.

I am sure that fact that it sounds like nonsense to you is a great consolation to the women who have had to go on the game. if I could remember the name of the nun I would contact her and tell her you reckon she is lying. I am sure she would be really upset.

I would have to presume there is a lot of latent demand in the sex industry to allow for this kind of behaviour.

Anyway, here is an interesting article about prostitution in Ireland. Short excerpt:

Article wrote:

Some make a choice to do it. It is something women enter and leave all the time depending on whether they have a First Communion coming up or another financial pressure.

Read more: http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/love-sex/college-girl-niamh-why-i-became-a-220-per-hour-escort-2982125.html#ixzz1lJwtCXmE

Whilst I have not taken the time to look, as I heard the origional radio segment and happened to beleive what was being said, I am sure if you had a look at the websites of the organisations that support prostitutes you might find some more information.

MrP

kylith · 03-02-2012 2:07pm

MrPudding wrote: »

m sure that fact that it sounds like nonsense to you is a great consolation to the women who have had to go on the game. if I could remember the name of the nun I would contact her and tell her you reckon she is lying. I am sure she would be really upset.

I would have to presume there is a lot of latent demand in the sex industry to allow for this kind of behaviour.

MrP

i do hope I'm misinterpreting, but are you actually claiming that women become prostitutes to pay for Communion dresses? Even though there are plenty online for €20? Seriously?

Zamboni · 03-02-2012 2:14pm

kylith wrote: »

i do hope I'm misinterpreting, but are you actually claiming that women become prostitutes to pay for Communion dresses? Even though there are plenty online for €20? Seriously?

Prostitutes or communion dresses?

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 2:15pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Prostitutes or communion dresses?

Prostitutes in communion dresses.

Solair · 03-02-2012 2:18pm

I don't understand why the state is paying for communions. Are churches incapable of raising their own funds to pay for their own events? *THE CATHOLIC CHURCH* is placing this enormous burden on parents by encouraging the hype around communions and confirmations. They do absolutely nothing to keep the costs down or to avoid the insane peer pressure that goes on.

If they wanted to deal with the problem of over-spends, they could deal with it in 10 minutes by just asking kids to turn up in boring looking robes, as is the case in France. (These can be hired and go over anything, much like a graduation robe)

Also, if the state's keen on paying for this, I would like them to pay for at least one of my children's landmark birthdays! Seems only fair!

Perhaps an MTV-style Sweet 16 party or a huge 18th bash ?

Or maybe insist they pay for the debs/grads ball? I mean, it's a secular / humanist coming of age / rite of passage. I don't really see why it shouldn't be covered on the basis that the communion / confirmation is.

MrPudding · 03-02-2012 2:24pm

kylith wrote: »

i do hope I'm misinterpreting, but are you actually claiming that women become prostitutes to pay for Communion dresses? Even though there are plenty online for €20? Seriously?

Yes. my original post mentioned a segement I heard on Newstalk years ago. it was a nun that worked in a support group for prostitutes. She said that huge numbers of women go on the game each year to pay for communion. She was calling for priest to make school uniform compusory for first communion.

The article I linked to just above also mentions communion as driver for putting women into prostitution. Clearly they don't want the €20 dresses.

MrP

magicbastarder · 03-02-2012 2:44pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Again, why aren't the parents able to save 50-100 in the 7 years leading up to the communion?

because they're poor?

joseph brand · 03-02-2012 2:57pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

is the state placing you in a position where it's expected that you will go, and opting out will potentially cause tension between you and your children's school, and making your kid feel left out? thought not.

Religion. Causing trouble in children's education. Making children feel left out. Can you feel the love? I know I can. :rolleyes:

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 3:05pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

because they're poor?

Is that actually a serious answer?

MrPudding · 03-02-2012 3:37pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is that actually a serious answer?

I think it can be. Some people are, quite simply, dirt poor. Give them as many years as you want and they still won't be able to save €100.

It can be very easy to lose sight of this when we all have our fancy jobs, but if you don't have enough money to feed and cloth yourself and you kids on a day to day basis where does the money to save come from?

I come form a fairly poor background, but I remember people at school with way less money than we had and they would have struggled to save pence per week.

When the choice is feed the kids or put a bit of money away for something in x years time food wins.

MrP

magicbastarder · 03-02-2012 4:03pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is that actually a serious answer?

the fact that you had to ask that actually caused me to die a little inside.

there are plenty of people who would not have the luxury (or ability) to save €50 two years before their child's communion and not have to worry about something happening in those two years which they would *need* to use the money for.

i know a few people who volunteer for the SVP. i've heard stories about people who simply have no furniture beyond a bed - with no bedlinen - in their houses, amongst others.

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 4:07pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know a few people who volunteer for the SVP. i've heard stories about people who simply have no furniture beyond a bed - with no bedlinen - in their houses, amongst others.

And you think we should give these people €50-€100 money for a communion dress?

Priorities eh? Who needs 'em.

kylith · 03-02-2012 4:43pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

And you think we should give these people €50-€100 money for a communion dress?

Priorities eh? Who needs 'em.

Precisely. If people are so destitute that they have no furniture or bedclothes then they need furniture and bedclothes, not handouts for a poxy dress that will only be worn once. Are these people's priorities really so screwed that they can't say 'I can't afford to spend €100 on a dress, so I'm going to go to Oxfam and see if they have any for a fraction of that price", or that they can't tell the schools to go shove their demands for money? If you can't afford food then fancy clothing should be well down the list of priorities.

We didn't have a lot of money when I was growing up, although we weren't exactly destitute it's a struggle to feed and clothe 8 people on one salary, and my parents never had any qualms about telling us that they couldn't afford to buy us new bikes, or clothes, and we'd have to have second hand ones. My communion dress went to a cousin, who passed it on to someone else.

Dades · 03-02-2012 5:14pm

I was in TK Maxx at lunchtime (always have great girls clothes) and they have communion dresses all over the place starting at €26.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 5:27pm

a shrewd investment of 3 million by the state. they are right to be supporting this custom of our tribe.

3 million out....kids collect way more than 3 million in their little white dresses which is like a license for state /church approved begging from adults....money goes either into a bank account (helping to recapitalise the country) or goes into the economy as they hit the shops.

whats the return on this 3 million outlay?

whats the average collect on communions now? how much tax comes back by way of vat when then little ones hit the shops with their bounty?

i reckon the countries finances make a profit on this state benefit.

c.a.b. couldnt touch this communion lark for retrieving untaxed money. kids have no financial sense...that money will be straight back into the economy....and the vat mans pocket ...as soon as mammy brings em into town.

Sarky · 03-02-2012 5:42pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

3 million out....kids collect way more than 3 million in their little white dresses which is like a license for state /church approved begging from adults....money goes either into a bank account (helping to recapitalise the country) or goes into the economy as they hit the shops.

Because 8 year olds are such shrewd investors.

magicbastarder · 03-02-2012 5:53pm

the fact that this is a religious ceremony is a red herring, in a sense. it's an extra expense on top of the usual school demands, like schoolbooks and the like, so should not be viewed as a purely religious exercise, but as a not-quite extracurricular activity.

maybe a bit like a school tour which would incur a cost for the parent.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 5:54pm

no sarky. it goes into the bank account because mammy is a spoilsport.

most mammies will let them hit the shops...boomtime for the highstreet.

in fact ...i think athiests may be subverting the economy by not getting their kids in on this lark.

beerbuddy · 03-02-2012 6:45pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

no sarky. it goes into the bank account because mammy is a spoilsport.

most mammies will let them hit the shops...boomtime for the highstreet.

in fact ...i think athiests may be subverting the economy by not getting their kids in on this lark.

well lets cancel ST Patricks day parade they then and take down all the christmas lights.Funny how most middle class twentysomethings i am guessing find this shocking. Are you outraged because the people are poor or because of the religious aspect.

How many of you complained at the expense of the Paddys days parade or chrimbo lights.

Mark Hamill · 03-02-2012 7:01pm

beerbuddy wrote: »

Are you outraged because the people are poor or because of the religious aspect.

I am annoyed that a significant amount of people are spending money they dont have on things they dont need.

beerbuddy wrote: »

How many of you complained at the expense of the Paddys days parade or chrimbo lights.

There is a stronger argument for these, in that they can offer a return in terms of increased tourism and public spending. That said, I've never been enamoured or protective of either and if either one can be shown to cost more money than they make then by all means, get rid of them.

gbee · 03-02-2012 7:05pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

whats the average collect on communions now?

€700. the minimum expected is the €50 note. Two years ago it was more or less capped at that as the recession was biting bigtime.

I've only seen two €500 notes in my Euro lifetime and one of then fell out of a communion child's card.

Ellis Dee · 03-02-2012 7:12pm

These grants are actually unconstitutional. Bunreacht na HEireann contains an express prohibition on the State endowing any religion, but these grants are an indirect subsidy to the kiddy-fiddler church.:mad:

They are also discriminatory, because only one denomination benefits. Just imagine the squealing we'd hear if the SW started paying grants to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or whatever - or indeed to atheists - to help pay the costs of some or other rite of passage for their sprogs. Or for initiation ceremonies as a Jedi knight, or to me to buy some spliffs if I decide to join the Rastafarians.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You couldn't make this stuff up!:)

Yahew · 03-02-2012 7:17pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

I didn't realise the taxpayer is responsible for making sure other people's children don't feel left out.

Why isn't the parent responsible for this charge? How are they unable to afford it when they know years in advance that they will need it? Should the taxpayer also subsidize new Nike runners so the poor kid doesn't feel inadequate next to his other classmates who's parents can afford such luxuries? I remember when I was a kid I had a pair of ''Nicks'' runners, oh the embarrassment!! For football I had to wear my brother's boots, he's 5 years older than me, imagine my embarrassment as a goalie when I can barely kick a ball because I'm wearing boots that are way too big? Should the tax payer pay for these as well?

This "atheist" rant sounds like Thatcherism at it's worst. If the poor are too feckless to save, let them starve.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 7:18pm

700 yo yos:eek:. we need to double our support for this ritual...not cut back.

Yahew · 03-02-2012 7:19pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

These grants are actually unconstitutional. Bunreacht na HEireann contains an express prohibition on the State endowing any religion, but these grants are an indirect subsidy to the kiddy-fiddler church.:mad:

They are also discriminatory, because only one denomination benefits. Just imagine the squealing we'd hear if the SW started paying grants to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or whatever - or indeed to atheists - to help pay the costs of some or other rite of passage for their sprogs. Or for initiation ceremonies as a Jedi knight, or to me to buy some spliffs if I decide to join the Rastafarians.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You couldn't make this stuff up!:)

Pretty sure the State would pay a hard ship fund for a bar mitzvah, were one needed. Thats what the prohibition in the constitution would mean - if the hard ship payments were for one religion, then it must be for all. Which isn't the same as an atheist, or secular solution of banning anything religious at all.

03-02-2012 7:20pm

Yahew wrote: »

This "atheist" rant sounds like Thatcherism at it's worst. If the poor are too feckless to save, let them starve.

they don't eat the dresses

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 7:24pm

bluewolf wrote: »

they don't eat the dresses

Or..... or do they!? :eek:

Yahew · 03-02-2012 7:25pm

In general, though I am not a New Atheist hating all things religious and I dont care about this issue; I do hate first communion in general. Dressing little girls up in pseudo-wedding dresses is appalling nonsense.

03-02-2012 7:28pm

Yahew wrote: »

Pretty sure the State would pay a hard ship fund for a bar mitzvah, were one needed. Thats what the prohibition in the constitution would mean - if the hard ship payments were for one religion, then it must be for all. Which isn't the same as an atheist, or secular solution of banning anything religious at all.

Nobody wants to ban it
we want to ban funding for it - especially at a time when SNAs are being cut and the country is broke
the state should not be funding religious rituals like this

State spending €3million on communion rituals

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