State spending €3million on communion rituals

Zamboni · 03-07-2011 12:37pm #1

One in ten families is turning to the State for help in paying for first Holy Communion costs.

Some 60 thousand children make their communion in Ireland every year.

The number of people applying for State aid to buy communion and confirmation clothes has risen from 8-thousand in 2009 to 14 thousand this year - at a cost of over three million euro to the taxpayer.

http://newsfeed.eastcoast.fm/2011/07/holy-communions-cost-taxpayers-over-3.html

I heard this on the radio this morning and I think it is a fairly shocking use of tax payer money during a recession.
That works out at about €214 per person, probably used to buy an outfit that gets worn once and then dumped or resold with no return to the taxpayer.
Unbelievable.

mikemac · 03-07-2011 12:41pm

Wearing the school uniform would solve a lot of this.

I don't know why every school board of management doesn't start that rule.
Maybe some parents are objecting.

gbee · 03-07-2011 1:01pm

mikemac wrote: »

Wearing the school uniform would solve a lot of this..

School should have nothing to do with it. It's a religious service, and IMO Confirmation is already destroyed, wearing those stupid clowns, and there is no sense of occasion in a school uniform.

Zamboni · 03-07-2011 1:35pm

I have made a submission to Minister Howlin.
I would encourage anyone else who thinks this is an unnecessary spend on a luxury item to make a submission too.

http://per.gov.ie/comprehensive-review-of-expenditure/
expenditurereview@per.gov.ie

Ps: Religion is a noticeable omission from the list of areas for saving...

eoin5 · 03-07-2011 3:30pm

Sent

Minister Howlin,

I can understand that parents are finding it difficult to finance a
day that is very important to their child and to them. However, using
taxpayers money to supplement personal spending on a religious outing
when times are tough for everyone is plainly wrong. It is essentially
no different than providing money to a classic car enthusiast because
an exhibition is coming up.

I wont waste our time listing all the ways €3m spent elsewhere would
accomplish. Please review this policy.

Regards,
*me*

Delirium · 03-07-2011 4:42pm

Does anyone have any information as to how exactly the parents claim money to buy communion clothes?

Do they just go to some local council/government office and just ask for money to buy communion clothes? And what reasoning does the government have for giving out the money?

Dades · 03-07-2011 9:49pm

eoin5 wrote:

Minister Howlin,

I can understand that parents are finding it difficult to finance a
day that is very important to their child and to them. However, using
taxpayers money to supplement personal spending on a religious outing
when times are tough for everyone is plainly wrong. It is essentially
no different than providing money to a classic car enthusiast because
an exhibition is coming up.

I wont waste our time listing all the ways €3m spent elsewhere would
accomplish. Please review this policy.

Regards,
*me*

As a classic car enthusiast I wholly endorse this suggestion of yours!

mikemac · 03-07-2011 10:40pm

koth wrote: »

Does anyone have any information as to how exactly the parents claim money to buy communion clothes?

Community Welfare Officer has discretion to give money if you put in a claim for exceptional needs

Here are some examples:

Exceptional Needs Payment

An Exceptional Needs Payment is a single payment to help meet essential, once-off, exceptional expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet out of their weekly income. For example, the payments can be for special clothing for a person who has a serious illness, bedding or cooking utensils for someone setting up a home for the first time, visiting relatives in hospital or prison, or funeral costs.

Those are good causes^^
This communion one, not at all

magicbastarder · 03-07-2011 10:47pm

what if the kid is, through no fault of the parents, in a school where there is no uniform only policy? it's not as if people on this board are not more than aware of the difficulties in finding a school which does not practice communion.
of course it shouldn't happen. but it does. just because you don't agree with it does not mean that it is not a real issue for lots of people.

challengemaster · 03-07-2011 10:51pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

what if the kid is, through no fault of the parents, in a school where there is no uniform only policy? it's not as if people on this board are not more than aware of the difficulties in finding a school which does not practice communion.
of course it shouldn't happen. but it does. just because you don't agree with it does not mean that it is not a real issue for lots of people.

It may be an issue, but there's no reason why the taxpayer should foot the bill for someone elses religious beliefs.

MrPudding · 04-07-2011 9:33am

To be honest I think this is a slightly less evil than some of the other stuff I have heard. A few years a go there was a nun on NewsTalk 106, the George Hook programme I think, who worked in an organisation that provided help and support for prostitutes. Apparently the number of working prostitutes in the state massively increases during the first communion period as women go on the game temporarily to help gathering the money required. Pretty disgusting.

This nun, can’t remember her name, this was years ago, said it was up to the parish priest to decide what was worn. She called for them to declare school uniforms should be worn. For some reason this does not seem to be something that has caught on…

MrP

MrPudding · 04-07-2011 9:34am

challengemaster wrote: »

It may be an issue, but there's no reason why the taxpayer should foot the bill for someone elses religious beliefs.

We already do...

MrP

Rev Hellfire · 04-07-2011 9:41am

MrPudding wrote: »

For some reason this does not seem to be something that has caught on…

And miss a chance to show off your borrowed wealth, not going to happen.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2011 10:03am

challengemaster wrote: »

It may be an issue, but there's no reason why the taxpayer should foot the bill for someone elses religious beliefs.

the taxpayer foots the bill for grants to sports clubs. well, probably not so much anymore.
why should my money go to a sport i have no interest in?

plenty of your tax money goes to things you have not interest in.

Penn · 04-07-2011 10:21am

magicbastarder wrote: »

the taxpayer foots the bill for grants to sports clubs. well, probably not so much anymore.
why should my money go to a sport i have no interest in?

plenty of your tax money goes to things you have not interest in.

Because that is money set aside for grants for sports clubs. This is Exceptional Needs Payment

An Exceptional Needs Payment is a single payment to help meet essential, once-off, exceptional expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet out of their weekly income. For example, the payments can be for special clothing for a person who has a serious illness, bedding or cooking utensils for someone setting up a home for the first time, visiting relatives in hospital or prison, or funeral costs.

This money which is set aside for essential things is being used for non-essential things.

I've also emailed a letter to expenditurereview@per.gov.ie. Looking forward to a response, if any.

Dades · 04-07-2011 10:30am

magicbastarder wrote: »

the taxpayer foots the bill for grants to sports clubs. well, probably not so much anymore.
why should my money go to a sport i have no interest in?

plenty of your tax money goes to things you have not interest in.

Are you talking community sports clubs? Sport is a benefit to any child or any community. Better the kids be out exercising and developing a team spirit than hanging around outside a Spar.

The only people who benefit from this travesty are the dressmakers.

travnett · 04-07-2011 10:40am

mikemac wrote: »

Community Welfare Officer has discretion to give money if you put in a claim for exceptional needs

Here are some examples:

Exceptional Needs Payment

An Exceptional Needs Payment is a single payment to help meet essential, once-off, exceptional expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet out of their weekly income. For example, the payments can be for special clothing for a person who has a serious illness, bedding or cooking utensils for someone setting up a home for the first time, visiting relatives in hospital or prison, or funeral costs.

Those are good causes^^
This communion one, not at all

I'm sorry but i don't think this is an "exceptional or essential need" If someone can't even afford to buy these things essentials then maybe they shouldn't be setting up home. Maybe they wouldn't be able to meet their repayments on rent or mortgage if cash is so tight that they can't buy these things.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that they would give money away for things like that. If I found out that my friends got money from the council for stuff like this I'd be pretty angry with them.

I'm sorry if I feel like a heartless bastard but it's policies like this that make a mockery of the government. I am also in agreement that they shouldn't be giving money for communions especially for communion dresses. If parents are that hard off then maybe the county councils should set up a second hand communion dress pool where they can rent them out to the parents for free.

Religion should have nothing to do with how a country is run or how our policies are formed. Ireland after all is a multi culture which a huge diverse of religions. As it has being said in other threads if parents want their kids to make their communion and/or confirmation then this should be done and prepared for outside the school time. As this time is effecting the kids who are not going to make their communion by taking the learning time away from them.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2011 11:02am

travnett wrote: »

If someone can't even afford to buy these things essentials then maybe they shouldn't be setting up home. Maybe they wouldn't be able to meet their repayments on rent or mortgage if cash is so tight that they can't buy these things.

begs the question about what they're meant to do for accomodation so.

ShooterSF · 04-07-2011 12:51pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

begs the question about what they're meant to do for accomodation so.

Rent? There's plenty of fully furnished places out there.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2011 1:41pm

he excludes rent too.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2011 1:45pm

anyway, my point is that when the state funds primary schools and does not provide anything approaching an adequate alternative to the catholic-run option, the state should deal with the consequences of the extra expenses inherent when they are funding schools which really don't have an opt-out option for parents.
most parents have no choice but to send their kids to a school where communion is handled as a part of the BAU of the school day.
this is merely a consequence of a much greater issue.

Rev Hellfire · 04-07-2011 2:18pm

Lets be honest here, people getting themselves into debt or coming to the state with begging bowl in hand over the cost of the communion is not really the churches fault in this particular case.

If you can't afford something, don't buy it.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2011 2:34pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

the communion is not really the churches fault in this particular case.

if the school patron is the church, the church is in a good position to change the school policy regarding dress during communion. my niece is in a private girls school and they have a uniform only policy - and this is in an area where being able to afford communion dresses would not generally be a problem.

ShooterSF · 04-07-2011 2:37pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

he excludes rent too.

What do you mean? I meant that if you can afford to move into a house there are plenty you can rent that come furnished and don't need you buying your own. If you can't even afford rent then that's a different issue. One that imo is less black and white and I can understand society trying to help people not become homeless. If for no other reason than self protection as desperate people will resort to desperate actions.
I just don't see why the state should have to buy appliances for people as the only ones I can see needing it are those that seem to think you need to own your own place.

Rev Hellfire · 04-07-2011 2:38pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

if the school patron is the church, the church is in a good position to change the school policy regarding dress during communion. my niece is in a private girls school and they have a uniform only policy - and this is in an area where being able to afford communion dresses would not generally be a problem.

That would be preferable, but it in the end of the day if people who can't afford it insist on placing themselves in debt because they insist on having expensive dresses or what not they've only themselves to blame. Its not like its sprung on them out of the blue.

If I was in charge of that fund, I'd tell them to feck off and start saving for next year like everyone else has to.

recedite · 04-07-2011 6:02pm

These people would probably buy the dress anyway, even if it meant going without food or heating. But I would let them do that, then give them a special grant afterwards for the food/ fuel just to make the point that a communion outfit is not a "necessary expense." Plus, going hungry for a few days concentrates the mind.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2011 7:43pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If I was in charge of that fund, I'd tell them to feck off and start saving for next year like everyone else has to.

not everyone has the luxury of saving. not everyone has the luxury of sending their kids to an educate together school. not everyone has the luxury of being able to swallow their pride and not give their kid a day out when the kid thinks it's a big day.

the issue of religion is clouding the fact that this is a big deal in irish society, and it does place people under financial hardship. don't forget there are christmas 'bonuses' handed out to a *hell* of a lot more people than qualify for this payment, and i've yet to hear anyone begrudging that.

gbee · 04-07-2011 8:19pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

the issue of religion is clouding the fact that this is a big deal in irish society, and it does place people under financial hardship. .

OK, definitive answer, in Cork, Mannix should give cheaper communion cloths.

Back in 1985 we were given a present of a jacket; it was £70 [Irish Punt] the salesman said it was great value and my son looked great.

My son did look great, but it was far from 'value' I paid £25 for a full suit for myself and £40 for my wife's wedding outfit six years earlier which she was wearing to the Communion, with a new blouse and other bits for £6 from Penny's.

I told the salesman in no uncertain terms that it was FAR from value for money and if it had not been a present I would certainly NOT be paying his 'hi-way robbery' for a jacket for a five year old.

Rev Hellfire · 04-07-2011 9:46pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

not everyone has the luxury of saving. not everyone has the luxury of sending their kids to an educate together school. not everyone has the luxury of being able to swallow their pride and not give their kid a day out when the kid thinks it's a big day.

the issue of religion is clouding the fact that this is a big deal in irish society, and it does place people under financial hardship. don't forget there are christmas 'bonuses' handed out to a *hell* of a lot more people than qualify for this payment, and i've yet to hear anyone begrudging that.

So we should pay for their pride, sorry I don't buy that. As for the Christmas bonus I'm happy to see that scam ended. Beggars can't be choosers.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2011 10:17pm

so they shouldn't get an extra bit during the most financially stressful period of the year?

robindch · 04-07-2011 10:44pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

so they shouldn't get an extra bit during the most financially stressful period of the year?

At 5.8%, that's fine with me.

Rev Hellfire · 05-07-2011 5:57am

magicbastarder wrote: »

so they shouldn't get an extra bit during the most financially stressful period of the year?

No, they should either learn to budget or do without the luxuries.

ShooterSF · 05-07-2011 9:29am

magicbastarder wrote: »

don't forget there are christmas 'bonuses' handed out to a *hell* of a lot more people than qualify for this payment, and i've yet to hear anyone begrudging that.

You know that has stopped. And rightfully so. I'm not the type to suggest we go AH style food stamps on people but one has to sometime learn that your situation does not allow for some things.

Anyway should this not be more in the territory of the likes of SVP than the state? Surely old communion outfits get donated to charity.

magicbastarder · 05-07-2011 10:36am

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

No, they should either learn to budget or do without the luxuries.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-about-being-poor/
written from an american perspective, but a lot of it applies here.

Rev Hellfire · 05-07-2011 10:45am

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-about-being-poor/
written from an american perspective, but a lot of it applies here.

If things are that bad for them I suggest they do without communion dresses and other luxuries.

gbee · 05-07-2011 10:55am

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

No, they should either learn to budget or do without the luxuries.

The system makes it impossible for people one low income to budget.

For a start the gas and electricity bills are bimonthly whilst the individuals get paid weekly. Then we have the schools, these are the biggest offended against the family of all time.

Typically one will get a list of books required so off they go and make arrangements for a short term loan or other social welfare special payment [whatever] ~ grands so far.

But as soon as the children arrive at school they are given demand notices for cleaning products the first week, paper and disposables the next week. Invariably they want a journal, another book, a different ruler, brown shoes, gym cloths, bus and tours hire, and the school expect this money immediately ~ it's an unbelievable strain TBH and they just keep throwing new items at you all year long ~

It's too simplistic to expect low paid/social welfare to be able to budget, in fairness like.

magicbastarder · 05-07-2011 10:57am

what if they're in a school which does not enforce a uniform-only policy during communion? i'd feel a bit heartless telling my kid they're going to be the one in their school uniform when everyone else is in a dress.

like i said, the solution to this problem is the schools addressing that issue. until they do, i'm not going to begrudge someone being given €150 or whatever to let their kid dress up and bring them out for a meal.

Rev Hellfire · 05-07-2011 11:01am

magicbastarder wrote: »

what if they're in a school which does not enforce a uniform-only policy during communion? i'd feel a bit heartless telling my kid they're going to be the one in their school uniform when everyone else is in a dress.

The solution there is they save up over the course a year and get something which can be worn more than once or else they get one second hand or they borrow one. Failing that they do without until such time as they can afford it.

like i said, the solution to this problem is the schools addressing that issue. until they do, i'm not going to begrudge someone being given €150 or whatever to let their kid dress up and bring them out for a meal.

fs. a meal are you serious !

magicbastarder · 05-07-2011 11:02am

ShooterSF wrote: »

You know that has stopped. And rightfully so. I'm not the type to suggest we go AH style food stamps on people but one has to sometime learn that your situation does not allow for some things.

'some things' including giving your kids presents on christmas day?
have i unwittingly walked into a young fine gael meeting?

Rev Hellfire · 05-07-2011 11:09am

magicbastarder wrote: »

'some things' including giving your kids presents on christmas day?
have i unwittingly walked into a young fine gael meeting?

Live within your means, hardly revolutionary now is it.

Then again perhaps rather than the state paying they could hit charities, I've no objects to that.

magicbastarder · 05-07-2011 11:09am

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

fs. a meal are you serious !

yes, i'm serious.

i was beginning to wonder the same about other posters in this thread, the ones denying that there may be a seasonal variation in financial demands on low income families.

i know people who have been made redundant, in houses which are now not worth what they paid for them, which means they can't remove themselves from that particular situation. these people would be quite financially sensible, and are not only not able to save, but are eating into their savings.
these would be people who would be more financially canny than a lot of people on low incomes.

Zamboni · 05-07-2011 1:02pm

They don't need financial aid.
They need cop on.

http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/q_communion+dress/sortby_price-asc

ShooterSF · 05-07-2011 3:58pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

'some things' including giving your kids presents on christmas day?

Of course not. But 2 euro a week put aside (out of the chidrens allowance for example) can buy a €100 present. My family were never well to do but I never went without a present even if I found out after that they had to borrow from their own family at times. I may not always have got what I was after but again that's life.
You have to live within your means. I wish it wasn't true trust me but it is.

Zamboni · 02-02-2012 11:58am

Folks,

I would like to thank you all who wrote to Brendan Howlin and Joan Burton on this topic.
This is a sucessful outcome regardless of whether of not our correspondence was considered.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/struggling-families-communion-payment-slashed-182303.html

Dades · 02-02-2012 1:20pm

This really is exceptional news.

And I say this as a taxpayer, more so than an atheist.

Galvasean · 02-02-2012 1:31pm

Dades wrote: »

This really is exceptional news.

And I say this as a taxpayer, more so than an atheist.

I say that exclusively as a taxpayer. Hopefully the remaining funding will go to people who actually need it.

MagicMarker · 02-02-2012 1:39pm

Only seeing the thread for the first time now. Good to see the payments have been reduced but I still think it's a bit much considering many of these children will more than likely be receiving cards on their ''big day'' stuffed with cash.

gbee · 02-02-2012 2:04pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

will more than likely be receiving cards on their ''big day'' stuffed with cash.

Yes, an traditionally, that money was to go towards the dresses, suits etc,

robindch · 02-02-2012 3:10pm

gbee wrote: »

Yes, an traditionally, that money was to go towards the dresses, suits etc,

Not so far as I experienced it, or recall it - straight into the pocket, at the speed of sound!

sephir0th · 02-02-2012 3:24pm

Do people of other religions qualify for these grants too?

Zamboni · 02-02-2012 4:04pm

The icing on the cake is that Mary Lou is disgusted with it

State spending €3million on communion rituals

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