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Dental treatment,Rip off Ireland

  • 23-12-2011 8:23pm
    #1
    shay123
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭


    Just thought I would let you all know I went for a dental check up last week. Had not been for around 2 years due to austerity measures so the result was not good. I am a smoker and the diagnosis was quite bad gum disease, also know as periodontic disease. If I dont get treatment my teeth will fall out. With Periodontic treatment it will arrest the disease and if the teeth are looked after properly all will be ok.

    The local dentist booked me in for treatment with a recommendation in Dublin. So I made enquiries as to cost. As we are one of many who have gone interest only etc on the mortgage and things are very very tight you can imaging my horror to hear 250 euro for the first exam ( no treatment) then a further 1000 euro for the treatment. I decided to get some other quotes which ranged from, wait for it, 1750 euro to 1150 all in.

    On advice I got some numbers in Newry for the same treatment. I phoned the first clinic and was told 38 pound sterling for the first exam and 140 sterling for the treatment. I could'nt believe what I was hearing and quizzed the receptionist and she assured me that it was the proper treatment for my condition.

    To all of you out there, Rip off Ireland is still alive and well, don't stand for this and go up north and get better value until the professional down here wake up and smell the coffee.

    I will let you know how i get on, all the best and happy christmas to all.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    loobylou
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭loobylou


    Went to Newry for dental treatment about 3 yrs ago. Had longstanding dental problems that I had put off for years for financial reasons mainly but also have a bit of a phobia about dentists.
    Anyway, best thing I did. All outstanding problems were sorted out in about 3 visits.
    My wife subsequently went to the same practise. She needed more specialist treatment so was referred on to a specialist, also in Newry. She was happy with the work done (bridges) but had no price comparison with here.
    So then to my daughter. She had an accident as a child in which she lost one of her front teeth. Advice back then was to wait until she was old enough where her jaw stopped growing and then go for a dental implant, ie 19-20 yrs old. Dentists who had treated her all along quoted €4500. The specialist in Newry my wife used is charging £1800. Has had 3 visits so far with 1-2 more scheduled. Trip takes 1.5 hrs drive each way from Wicklow where we live, so effectively a day each time.
    They will sign and stamp your Med2 form so you can claim tax relief on the fees, as you could in the South.
    My experience of travelling north for dental treatment has been wholly positive and I would recommend it to anyone.


  • #3
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    OP, that is a massive difference. I had only heard of differences of maybe €200 on a €2500 braces job. It would cost me €80 petrol for the trip to Newry so it would have to be a decent saving. I will need dental work done at some point but can barely afford a check up at the moment but I would have no qualms about going to Newry.


  • #4
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Op you are a heavy smoker with periodontal disease and are at risk of losing your teeth. The reason the fees are high is because your dentist referred you to a clinician who specialises in the treatment of gum disease, a "Periodontist". You then rang a general dentist in Newry, your own dentist would provide the same standard of treatment at a similar cost as you were quoted but he/she has advised you that this will not suffice.

    If I can use an analogy, your GP advises you that you have a serious heart complaint that may need surgery by a cardiac surgeon, you are unhappy with the cost and are going to another GP for the surgery rather than a specialist heart surgeon, your risk if things do not work out.

    From experience I know there are no Periodontists in Newry, you can look up the UK general dental council register of Periodontists in NI and contact a couple of them for a quote, they will not be cheaper than you were quoted in Dublin.

    Ultimately your gum disease was caused by poor social habits and oral bygiene, you are responsible for the treatment, if it does not work out and you lose teeth in the future, the low price you paid a general dentist will still be a waste of your money.


  • #5
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    I was staggered to find that treatment in the US is cheaper than in Ireland even without a dental plan - example, I was quoted 2500 euro for two crowns in Ireland. My US dentist is doing both, including one in gold (no extra cost!!) for $2600, roughly 2000 euro, before my dental plan which covers about half of it.

    Very happy I waited to get the work done, I'm baffled as to how a dentist can charge 2500 for four to five hours work.


  • #6
    C81
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭C81


    unregulated rip off!!!

    crooks are all they are!


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  • #7
    Reg'stoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭Reg'stoy


    Just to add balance to the discussion, have been getting ongoing dental treatment with three Southern Irish dentists; my normal dentist, an orthodontist and a periodontist.

    The service and value for money have been excellent plus having the peace of mind in knowing I'm 40mins from the furthest.

    The periodontist charged me €50 for an initial exam (taken off any treatment required) luckily I only needed treatment on one section of gum (front upper tooth). The treatment involved a deep clean and antibiotics at the site. I had in total 4 visits the last 2 being checkups to see if the gum disease had cleared up, I went from a 7mm pocket to a 2mm one. I paid €150 in total, the two follow ups cost nothing.

    None of my visits have meant taking a days holiday, don't forget to include that in your calculations. I arranged two appointments for half eight in the morning so made them on the way into work.

    Less does not always mean value for money, if people are getting value for money up North well then fair play. There are those of us who are also getting value for money down South.


  • #8
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    davo10 wrote: »
    You then rang a general dentist in Newry, your own dentist would provide the same standard of treatment at a similar cost
    How do you know this?
    Maybe the local dentist has insufficient training/experience or just chooses to stick to routine fillings and extractions. Any dentist can practice periodontal, orthodontic, or endodontic work, depending on their own capabilities.


  • #9
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    C81 wrote: »
    unregulated rip off!!!

    crooks are all they are!

    @C81 - you might want to fill out your post with a bit more detail, rather than making a general, sweeping statement.


  • #10
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    recedite wrote: »
    davo10 wrote: »
    You then rang a general dentist in Newry, your own dentist would provide the same standard of treatment at a similar cost
    How do you know this?
    Maybe the local dentist has insufficient training/experience or just chooses to stick to routine fillings and extractions. Any dentist can practice periodontal, orthodontic, or endodontic work, depending on their own capabilities.

    And most do to an extent, however when a GDP recognises specialist treatment is required to treat/arrest a condition, it would be negligent not to advise the patient of this and refer. It is now noted in OPs chart that he was advised he need treatment by a Periodontist, he chose to have it carried out by a GDP for economic reasons therefore the original dentist will not be at fault if the teeth ate subsequently lost.

    There are approx 6 Periodontists in the North, all in Belfast, none in Newry.

    Most dentists charge €500 - €800 for crowns, I do not know of any who charge €1250 per crown unless they again are specialists called "Prosthodontists" who treat very difficult cases beyond the capabilities of the referring GDP.


  • #11
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    davo10 wrote: »

    Most dentists charge €500 - €800 for crowns, I do not know of any who charge €1250 per crown unless they again are specialists called "Prosthodontists" who treat very difficult cases beyond the capabilities of the referring GDP.

    Will I scan the quote for you?


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  • #12
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    some people might call them crooks but by jasus i would have paid the dentist guy €2,000 just to pull the tooth out.

    was in a bad state for two days without sleep and had to make an emergency appointment for tooth extraction and seriously i would have paid anything to get that throbbing mothertrucker removed so no, i think dentists deserve the pay they get. ahh the memories.


  • #13
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    MadsL wrote: »
    davo10 wrote: »

    Most dentists charge €500 - €800 for crowns, I do not know of any who charge €1250 per crown unless they again are specialists called "Prosthodontists" who treat very difficult cases beyond the capabilities of the referring GDP.

    Will I scan the quote for you?

    You cud PM it to me please, I would be interested as i said, I have not heard of any dentist charging that price for crown work unless they were consultants treating very difficult situations. Thanks


  • #14
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    OP, that is a massive difference. I had only heard of differences of maybe €200 on a €2500 braces job. It would cost me €80 petrol for the trip to Newry so it would have to be a decent saving. I will need dental work done at some point but can barely afford a check up at the moment but I would have no qualms about going to Newry.

    Not on the Bus. It would only cost you approx 30 EUR for a return ticket to Newry from Kilkenny. Bus Eireann would be able to provide a more accurate quote if you contact them directly since they do not advertize these type of fares to the 6 counties online.


  • #15
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    davo10 wrote: »
    Op you are a heavy smoker with periodontal disease and are at risk of losing your teeth. The reason the fees are high is because your dentist referred you to a clinician who specialises in the treatment of gum disease, a "Periodontist". You then rang a general dentist in Newry, your own dentist would provide the same standard of treatment at a similar cost as you were quoted but he/she has advised you that this will not suffice.

    If I can use an analogy, your GP advises you that you have a serious heart complaint that may need surgery by a cardiac surgeon, you are unhappy with the cost and are going to another GP for the surgery rather than a specialist heart surgeon, your risk if things do not work out.

    From experience I know there are no Periodontists in Newry, you can look up the UK general dental council register of Periodontists in NI and contact a couple of them for a quote, they will not be cheaper than you were quoted in Dublin.

    Ultimately your gum disease was caused by poor social habits and oral bygiene, you are responsible for the treatment, if it does not work out and you lose teeth in the future, the low price you paid a general dentist will still be a waste of your money.

    That is misleading. I got my dental treatment done in Hungary recently but to put a long story short, the Irish Dentists were greedy and tried to make excuses to justify their extortion.

    So stop scaremongering. If anything, Irish Dentists now cut corners because they are trying to slot-in more appointments to compensate for people going up north.


  • #16
    funkey_monkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,406 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Skopzz wrote: »
    Not on the Bus. It would only cost you approx 30 EUR for a return ticket to Newry from Kilkenny. Bus Eireann would be able to provide a more accurate quote if you contact them directly since they do not advertize these type of fares to the 6 counties online.

    Bus Eireann & Ulsterbus do a route share from Belfast to Dublin Airport. It costs £17.50GBP from Belfast for a return. The bus stops in Newry Ulsterbus station (across the canal from the Canal Court Hotel).

    Would be cheaper still for a Newry-Dublin return I'd imagine.


  • #17
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Skopzz wrote: »

    That is misleading. I got my dental treatment done in Hungary recently but to put a long story short, the Irish Dentists were greedy and tried to make excuses to justify their extortion.

    So stop scaremongering. If anything, Irish Dentists now cut corners because they are trying to slot-in more appointments to compensate for people going up north.

    Ironic. The OP's "greedy" Irish dentist referred to a specialist thus passing up the opportunity to treat the patient and taking his money as payment. The dentist in Newry, without examining him or viewing x-rays and most importantly, without knowing what the problem is, quoted him for treatment.

    Skopzz you are full of it, on a other thread you posted that you had treatment done in Newry, then a few minutes swopped "Budapest" for "Newry", you are trolling. Tell us all again how Ulster businesses are sectarian "as evidenced by the co.uk" on their websites.

    If you want to be taken seriously, post evidence how what I have posted is scaremongering and more importantly evidence if dentists cutting corners.


  • #18
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    funkey_monkey wrote: »
    Bus Eireann & Ulsterbus do a route share from Belfast to Dublin Airport. It costs £17.50GBP from Belfast for a return. The bus stops in Newry Ulsterbus station (across the canal from the Canal Court Hotel).

    Would be cheaper still for a Newry-Dublin return I'd imagine.

    Thanks for the input. If I were going up to Newry for another filling, I would make sure to get the bus/train (whichever is the cheapest). I don't mean to slag some of the dentists here but these guys need to lower their prices otherwise they are toast. Seriously, when people are going up north to get a filling, theres something wrong with our competitiveness here. Costs can easily be managed by a simple means of not paying your staff 15 EUR an hour or expecting a lump of gold for a job that only takes 5 mins...


  • #19
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    davo10 wrote: »
    You cud PM it to me please, I would be interested as i said, I have not heard of any dentist charging that price for crown work unless they were consultants treating very difficult situations. Thanks

    Just had a look at the quote again, memory playing tricks. The quote comes in at a total of 1590 for the two crowns, however the dentist did warn as one is below the gum line that it could go 500 higher than that.

    I'm still better off (and have gold crown at no extra cost) under a dental plan in the US than in Ireland. VHI only cover the first 1500.

    Dentist also uses a really cool injection machine that only numbs the tooth being worked on - and instantly is able to work on the tooth.


  • #20
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    MadsL wrote: »
    davo10 wrote: »
    You cud PM it to me please, I would be interested as i said, I have not heard of any dentist charging that price for crown work unless they were consultants treating very difficult situations. Thanks

    Just had a look at the quote again, memory playing tricks. The quote comes in at a total of 1590 for the two crowns, however the dentist did warn as one is below the gum line that it could go 500 higher than that.

    I'm still better off (and have gold crown at no extra cost) under a dental plan in the US than in Ireland. VHI only cover the first 1500.

    Dentist also uses a really cool injection machine that only numbs the tooth being worked on - and instantly is able to work on the tooth.

    Thanks Mads for coming back on this, I suspect the extra €500 was a provision in case root canal and a cast post & core was needed. €795 per crown sounds a lot better than €1250.

    The insurance part of your post is a separate issue, the VHI company here is Decare and it is a crap insurance for dental treatment.

    Some of us also use the infiltration anaesthetics you describe, they work very quickly and ware off quickly so you can get on with your day without that numb effect.


  • #21
    shay123
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭shay123


    As the original poster thank you all for the lively comments. In conclusion, I would surmise that davo has a vested interest in all this and although all comments are appreciated, what is not appreciated is the arrogance of comparing this problem to having heart surgery done by a GP. What you need to realize, I suspect you are in a very different place, is the pressure some of us are under at the moment and when asked what I wanted for Christmas by my partner my reply was dental treatment please.

    Whilst specialist's deserve a good living my whole point is that you just know when something is just a bit too expensive and whilst we all could overlook the feeling in the past we cannot do so now.

    This is something that is not going away and without anyone speaking out we will continue to be told, now there's a good lad, just pay up and go on your way.


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  • #22
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    shay123 wrote: »
    As the original poster thank you all for the lively comments. In conclusion, I would surmise that davo has a vested interest in all this and although all comments are appreciated, what is not appreciated is the arrogance of comparing this problem to having heart surgery done by a GP. What you need to realize, I suspect you are in a very different place, is the pressure some of us are under at the moment and when asked what I wanted for Christmas by my partner my reply was dental treatment please.

    Whilst specialist's deserve a good living my whole point is that you just know when something is just a bit too expensive and whilst we all could overlook the feeling in the past we cannot do so now.

    This is something that is not going away and without anyone speaking out we will continue to be told, now there's a good lad, just pay up and go on your way.

    OP I think you read my post again, you will see the word "analogy" not the word "compare" they have two very different meanings, an analogy is used to illustrate a point, if you prefer, I can edit post and change it to a big toe problem and big toe surgeon.

    There is a difference also between something which is unaffordable to an individual at a particular time and a rip off. I may be offered an item at below cost but still not be able to afford it.

    My main point was that you were referred to a specialist, got a quote, rang another GP dentist, got a lower quote as would be expected then screamed "rip off". It makes no difference to me where you go so I have no vested interest, but in the interest of fairness I think you should give post an accurate description of the situation. I suspect you knew well that one was a specialist because the referring dentist would have told you as much, and one was a general dentist in Newry.

    If you want a balanced price comparison, contact one of the Periodontists in Belfast, ask your GDP to send a copy of the referral which will have a description of your condition and ask for a quotation for treatment, you might be surprised at how little the price varies for this type of time consuming treatment.

    As with all specialist treatments, it is your right to weigh up the cost/benefits and decide to proceed or not as the case may be, no one can force you to have it.

    Lastly, just to put some perspective on this, you probably spent tens of thousands of punts and euro on cigerettes getting your teeth into their present condition and will spend more money on dentures if the problem is not attended to. Have you considered going to your GDP, explaining the situation, asking him/her to carry out treatment to keep things stable until some time in the future when you can have more comprehensive treatment?


  • #23
    trixie_belle12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭trixie_belle12


    Sorry to hijack this thread however I have a query on the massive discrepancies being charged in the republic.

    I went to the dentist today as have been having some pain in a tooth that has not yet been root treated. There is very little of the tooth left and the tooth on one side has already been removed so although I would prefer to keep the tooth it seems that it's pretty much a lost cause and removal has been advised.

    Prior to this occurring I have been given a course of antibiotics to clear the infection. My dentist then referred me to another dentist in Cork that does implant work. She had them call me directly. The clinic in question seemed extremely expensive so I researched online and found a dentist in Limerick that seems much more reasonable. For instance a crown in the Cork clinic is listed as costing EUR 1,000 - 1,250 and the Limerick clinic EUR 500.

    Is this just more rip-off back scratching tactics??


  • #24
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    trixie_belle12 wrote: »

    For instance a crown in the Cork clinic is listed as costing EUR 1,000 - 1,250 and the Limerick clinic EUR 500.

    Is this just more rip-off back scratching tactics??


    One is an implant retained crown and will include the abutment (connects crown to implant, these are milled titanium or cad-cam designed zirconium), the other is a standard crown placed on a tooth. Two very different prosthesis, in this case "crown" is a generic term such as "car" but the processes for impressions, fabrication and fit are completely different, the skills required and lab expertise and costs are also different.

    Again, like the OP you are comparing the cost of treatment charged by the specialist you were referred to in Cork with a dentist in Limerick. I had a look at a number of websites in the North where qualified specialists were placing +/- restoring implants, none were less that £2100/€2600 for an examination, X-ray, implant and crown.


  • #25
    trixie_belle12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭trixie_belle12


    davo10 wrote: »
    One is an implant retained crown and will include the abutment (connects crown to implant, these are milled titanium or cad-cam designed zirconium), the other is a standard crown placed on a tooth. Two very different prosthesis, in this case "crown" is a generic term such as "car" but the processes for impressions, fabrication and fit are completely different, the skills required and lab expertise and costs are also different.

    Again, like the OP you are comparing the cost of treatment charged by the specialist you were referred to in Cork with a dentist in Limerick. I had a look at a number of websites in the North where qualified specialists were placing +/- restoring implants, none were less that £2100/€2600 for an examination, X-ray, implant and crown.

    Incorrect.

    As the prices for implants are variable on both websites I compared the price of a normal crown to reflect the discrepancy.

    See below price variables for implants:
    Cork: Single Implant Not Restored with crown - EUR 1,195;
    Single Implant Restored with crown - EUR 2,950 - 3,950

    Limerick: Implants (BioHorizon) EUR 1,500

    Cork: Veneers - ERU 950 - 1,150
    Limerick: Veneers - 500

    There are massive price differences between the two clinics imo.


  • #26
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Trixie could you pm me links to the two clinics so I can see the clinics myself before I post again, to me the one in Cork is on the high side and the one in Limerick on the low, is the one in Limerick a general or specialist clinic?, you have established that the one in Cork is a specialist.

    If one is a specialist and one is a general practice than your posts are about as accurate or misleading as the OP's, also are the veneers porcelain, Lava, e-max, procera etc?, there is a huge difference in quality and cost between them, you can be sure a specialist will not be putting on a bog standard veneer.

    Biohorizons are on the cheaper end of the implant cost scale.


  • #27
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    I flew to the French riveria late last year and paid cash for 4 fillings, a root canal, a crown and a scale and polish. Price was approx 30% of what I was quoted in Ireland.


  • #28
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    I flew to the French riveria late last year and paid cash for 4 fillings, a root canal, a crown and a scale and polish. Price was approx 30% of what I was quoted in Ireland.

    Hmmm, so let me see, a patient from another country walks in to a clinic asks for 4 fillings, a root canal, a crown, scale and polish, offers to pay cash and the dentists knows he/she will not hear from them again. I'm surprised it was only 30% cheaper.


  • #29
    trixie_belle12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭trixie_belle12


    davo10 wrote: »
    Trixie could you pm me links to the two clinics so I can see the clinics myself before I post again, to me the one in Cork is on the high side and the one in Limerick on the low, is the one in Limerick a general or specialist clinic?, you have established that the one in Cork is a specialist.

    If one is a specialist and one is a general practice than your posts are about as accurate or misleading as the OP's, also are the veneers porcelain, Lava, e-max, procera etc?, there is a huge difference in quality and cost between them, you can be sure a specialist will not be putting on a bog standard veneer.

    Biohorizons are on the cheaper end of the implant cost scale.

    I could send you the links but I'd rather get more impartial advice elsewhere.


  • #30
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    trixie_belle12 wrote: »
    I could send you the links but I'd rather get more impartial advice elsewhere.

    That doesn't make sense, the only one that is going to be able to explain the difference between the two is a dental professional, if you want to compare prices, compare specialist clinics with specialist clinics and general with general, not specialist with general. Also different types and quality of veneers and crowns cost different prices be it here of in the North or anywhere in the World. My guess is you looked up the websites and spotted the difference in qualifications and types of treatments offered otherwise there should not be an issue with backing up your post.

    i'm not saying dentists should charge megaprices for treatments, just that when you post price comparisons that they should be for the same items by the same types of clinicians.


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  • #31
    trixie_belle12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭trixie_belle12


    davo10 wrote: »
    That doesn't make sense, the only one that is going to be able to explain the difference between the two is a dental professional, if you want to compare prices, compare specialist clinics with specialist clinics and general with general, not specialist with general. Also different types and quality of veneers and crowns cost different prices be it here of in the North or anywhere in the World. My guess is you looked up the websites and spotted the difference in qualifications and types of treatments offered otherwise there should not be an issue with backing up your post.

    i'm not saying dentists should charge megaprices for treatments, just that when you post price comparisons that they should be for the same items by the same types of clinicians.

    It's not difficult to back up my post and you do make some valid points however I don't find myself wishing to further this conversation as I find your tone quite aggressive to be honest.


  • #32
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    Hmmm, so let me see, a patient from another country walks in to a clinic asks for 4 fillings, a root canal, a crown, scale and polish, offers to pay cash and the dentists knows he/she will not hear from them again. I'm surprised it was only 30% cheaper.

    It was 70% cheaper


  • #33
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    It was 70% cheaper

    Sorry Ciaran, misread the post, great saving but it would be a long and costly way to go specifically for dental treatment, great holiday though.


  • #34
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    Sorry Ciaran, misread the post, great saving but it would be a long and costly way to go specifically for dental treatment, great holiday though.
    Its a 2 hour flight with Ryanair to Nice, cost me 60 quid return.

    Why pay extortionate rates to the Irish dentist cartel when you can get a free luxury holiday into the bargain and still save hundreds and hundreds of euro?


  • #35
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Its a 2 hour flight with Ryanair to Nice, cost me 60 quid return.

    Why pay extortionate rates to the Irish dentist cartel when you can get a free luxury holiday into the bargain and still save hundreds and hundreds of euro?

    If it was a cartel all prices would be the same yet Trixie posted about the "massive discrepancy in prices". Can you show me two clinics with exactly the same prices (not from the same chain like Smiles obviously) to back up your cartel claim?.

    Ciaran how much was the treatment here, how much in France?, was the treatment here expensive and could you have got it cheaper?, was the treatment there very cheap?, did you stay in a hotel?, did you eat?, what will you do if you have problems with the root canal or crown in a couple of years time?, will you get another flight back to have it checked?, will that be €60?


  • #36
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    If it was a cartel all prices would be the same yet Trixie posted about the "massive discrepancy in prices". Can you show me two clinics with exactly the same prices (not from the same chain like Smiles obviously) to back up your cartel claim?.

    Ciaran how much was the treatment here, how much in France?, was the treatment here expensive and could you have got it cheaper?, was the treatment there very cheap?, did you stay in a hotel?, did you eat?, what will you do if you have problems with the root canal or crown in a couple of years time?, will you get another flight back to have it checked?, will that be €60?
    You sound pretty desperate.

    A filling in France costs 19 euro. It costs 70 here. Thats the bottom line. People should not be expected to pay such giant premiums for the 'priviledge' of getting the treatment done in some suburban dentist in Ireland.

    Im in a position to take my scheduled dentist visits in France, so I will from now on. And the dentists, like the one my mother works for, will continue to watch their patient levels go through the floor and teeter on the brink of going bust.


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  • #37
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    You sound pretty desperate.

    A filling in France costs 19 euro. It costs 70 here. Thats the bottom line. People should not be expected to pay such giant premiums for the 'priviledge' of getting the treatment done in some suburban dentist in Ireland.

    Im in a position to take my scheduled dentist visits in France, so I will from now on. And the dentists, like the one my mother works for, will continue to watch their patient levels go through the floor and teeter on the brink of going bust.

    I'm not desperate at all, they are after all your teeth you're posting about. As I suspected the clinic in France was cheap, €19 for a filling? I have never seen a website offering that price, not even in Hungary or Bulgaria.

    This is a pretty good study, it was carried out is 2005 but showed the mean cost of an amalgam filling in France was €45.47 I suspect it has increased since.
    http://www.contrangolo.it/documenti/articolo%20su%20odontoiatria%20europea.pdf

    You can get fillings done very cheaply in the UK but they are subsidized by the NHS and you have to be resident in the UK. Here you used to be able to get fillings free on the med card and I do not think there is any better value than free anywhere in the world. if the clinic your mum works for could make a profit on a €19 filling I am sure they would but in this country and most others that would be impossible so it looks like your mum will unfortunately be joining the ranks of the unemployed shortly, maybe she can get a job in the Riviera but the wage there will be lower lost likely.

    Give us the breakdown on the rest of the treatment and the quotation you were given here seen as you have made a big deal of it, also I'd appreciate a look at their website price list you could PM it to me.

    Still no evidence on the cartel.


  • #38
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    trixie_belle12 wrote: »
    I find your tone quite aggressive to be honest.
    Reading "tone" into someone else's internet post is not usually a good idea :)


  • #39
    trixie_belle12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭trixie_belle12


    recedite wrote: »
    Reading "tone" into someone else's internet post is not usually a good idea :)

    Not a good idea for who? I think it's pretty evident in this case actually!:)


  • #40
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    This is a pretty good study, it was carried out is 2005 but showed the mean cost of an amalgam filling in France was €45.47 I suspect it has increased since.
    http://www.contrangolo.it/documenti/articolo%20su%20odontoiatria%20europea.pdf
    It would seem that the 19 quid I paid was for 'basic tooth decay treatment' not sure what the difference is there.

    Your report shows four private independent dentists. A filling from a dentist within the French health insurance system (most of them) costs within a range of fixed prices between 30-60 quid, depending on the tooth/type I guess. You can claim 70% of that back if you qualify for a French medical card (or possibly via an EHIC card if its urgent treatment). You pay the whole lot yourself if not.

    A consultation is fixed at 21 euro. A scale is 23. An extraction is 34. (Im pretty sure my root canal was 80 - dont quote me on that one).

    Crowns/brodges and the like are not subject to fixed prices.


  • #41
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    It would seem that the 19 quid I paid was for 'basic tooth decay treatment' not sure what the difference is there.

    Your report shows four private independent dentists. A filling from a dentist within the French health insurance system (most of them) costs within a range of fixed prices between 30-60 quid, depending on the tooth/type I guess. You can claim 70% of that back if you qualify for a French medical card (or possibly via an EHIC card if its urgent treatment). You pay the whole lot yourself if not.

    A consultation is fixed at 21 euro. A scale is 23. An extraction is 34. (Im pretty sure my root canal was 80 - dont quote me on that one).

    Crowns/brodges and the like are not subject to fixed prices.

    Ah, so in common with the OP and trixie, the comparison you made when you used phrases like "extortionate", "cartel", "bust" etc are not quite as accurate as you led us to believe.


    "basic tooth decay treatment" as distinct from a filling (which you quoted as a separate price) refers to either a filling in a basic/primary/deciduous/baby tooth or simple removal of pit and fissure caries in an adult tooth, this is then usually filled with a white resin filling, we call these fissure sealants and they usually cost around €20 per tooth, whether you pay cash or card.

    The scheme whereby prices are set by the French Health/Social Ministry is a subsidized scheme similar to what our PRSI and medical schemes were, except you paid less here than in France both for treatment and in employee contributions. If you were qualified under the PRSI scheme, pre December 31st 2009, an examination was FREE, a scaling was FREE, a filling averaged €40 - €60, an extraction was €25. Under the med card scheme it was even better, everything was free except cosmetic treatments and molar root canals. These schemes were effectively withdrawn by the previous Government so if you want to compare prices under a French Health Insurance scheme, compare with the PRSI/Med card schemes.

    Also, french dentists receive an additional fee per item from the scheme which "tops up" the amount they get paid from the patient. Like in the UK, many french dentists are opting out of this scheme and in some parts on the country it can be difficult to find a participating dentist.

    While the French health system is the envy of many, they also pay a high levi on their income for this.

    Lastly, Ciaran, on average a crown here costs between €500 and €800, did you really get yours for €150 - € 240 ?, again even the cheapest clinics in Eastern Europe do not provide treatment as cheap as this. Lastly, I googled 7 private clinics in Nice, none provide treatment at anywhere near the prices you posted above, and after all, dentists in ireland are private clinicians.


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  • #42
    Northern Monkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Northern Monkey


    How much do you charge for the above treatments Davo? And how does it compare to the average?

    Let's compare apples with apples instead of this if you had a medical card, before December 2009 talk.

    How much would a filling cost from a regular dentist in your practice versus one from a dentist in the north?


  • #43
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Northern Monkey wrote: »
    How much do you charge for the above treatments Davo? And how does it compare to the average?

    Let's compare apples with apples instead of this if you had a medical card, before December 2009 talk.

    How much would a filling cost from a regular dentist in your practice versus one from a dentist in the north?

    I am delighted to answer this question, we have 4 large signs in our clinic with price comparisons for treatments between our clinic and three other clinics in the North offering specialist and general dental services. I can pm you the three northern clInics if you wish.

    Exam €30,
    Scale and polish with Hygienist €50, but reduced to €40 if done at same time as exam.
    Fillings €40 - €70 for amalgam.
    White filling €70 - €90 (back teeth)
    Implant assessment €100
    Implant including, exam, x-rays, premium implant, zirconium/ titanium abutment and bonded or procera crown €2400.

    All three northern clinics where a qualified specialist carries out treatment charge the same or more.


  • #44
    Northern Monkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Northern Monkey


    davo10 wrote: »
    I am delighted to answer this question, we have 4 large signs in our clinic with price comparisons for treatments between our clinic and three other clinics in the North offering specialist and general dental services. I can pm you the three northern clInics if you wish.

    Exam €30,
    Scale and polish with Hygienist €50, but reduced to €40 if done at same time as exam.
    Fillings €40 - €70 for amalgam.
    White filling €70 - €90 (back teeth)
    Implant assessment €100
    Implant including, exam, x-rays, premium implant, zirconium/ titanium abutment and bonded or procera crown €2400.

    All three northern clinics where a qualified specialist carries out treatment charge the same or more.

    I wouldn't have a clue about the price of implants, but to me the rest of those prices seem reasonable enough. Certainly wouldn't be a big enough void to make me go up north.


  • #45
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    Just thought I would input here a little, Davo10 has covered most of the issues but I would like to point out that there is also a quality variable in this. For instance somebody mentioned a Bio Horizon implant. This is the cheapest system out there for the dentist to buy and it has surface characteristics and manufacturing tolerances to match its low price. The more expensive implant may be better value for the quality.

    As for crowns, I can get a crown from a lab for 40 euro or a better one for 10 times that. It may infact be the cheaper crown that is the rip off as the dentist pockets more of your money. High quality crowns look better and fit better, last longer etc. (BTW a gold crown is cheaper than a ceramic or metal ceramic crown)

    Root canals are totally dependant on who does them, a cheap root canal done quickly would be far more likely to fail than a more expensive one that took time and effort to do.

    Items of dental work are not directly comparable because at the end of the day its not a item that you are paying for but a service. A specialist periodontist will charge more to threat the OP as the OP's problems are beyond what his regular dentist can do successfully. If the OP wishes to bring his dental problems down to euros and cents then he is not accepting the scale of his problems, and wasting money in NI on treatment that is unlikely to work is the rip off.

    Cost and Value are not the same thing.


  • #46
    Zardoz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭Zardoz


    Isaias Uneven Superstar wrote: »

    Root canals are totally dependant on who does them, a cheap root canal done quickly would be far more likely to fail than a more expensive one that took time and effort to do.
    I need to get a root canal and have been shopping around locally.
    I've found almost no difference in the price from the Irish endontists.
    800 euro for less than 2 hours work in my eyes is extortion.
    I've found a few foreign dentists in Cork that will do the procedure for less than 300 euro,the length of the procedure is the same.
    I know these endontists are specialists and have extra qualifications but 400 euro would be more than enough considering there are almost no raw materials .

    I have spent longer in college than most of them ,and have lots of qualifications in the tech industry and work in a state of the art lab with equipment worth millions of euro yet the company only charge clients 900 euro a day for my services.(I get paid a fraction of that btw)
    These guys are charging that for 2 hours ,no justification for that.Rip off .


  • #47
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    An endodontist has spent about 10 years in college (5 undergrad, 3-5 postgrad), and the extra your paying for is their attention to detail and experience. Also they have demonstrated the innate ability to do this job which is not something that can be taught to just anyone. They will have been in the top 1% of leaving certs, then in the top 10% of their graduating class in dentistry, so were talking about some seriously talented people.

    Your making the classic error of mistaking what they charge you and the amount they earn. The expenses (staff, insurance, indemnity, materials, equipment, utilities etc. etc.) they have will run to about 60% of income, so on that 800 euro gross the net is 320 euro for three hours (there is time you not there in set up, record keeping, letter writing, disinfection of your instruments etc so more like 3 hours), after tax that's around 160 euro, that 54 euro an hour. A good wage but somebody in a highly technical, highly skilled speciality drilling holes in your teeth and taking out nerves, who is PERSONALLY liable for their mistakes needs to be paid well for the effort. Running a business and employing people also carries risk and cost, how much does the owner of your lab get paid? Would you consider going out on your own and taking the risk of the loans and lease? How much would you want to be paid for taking on that responsibility?

    If you don't want to pay that much go elsewhere, there is plenty of choice. However your are going to get what you pay for. Its not the endodontist fault they are good and can work quickly...would you prefer it took them longer? Oh and dont thing they spend 8 hours a day earning that much, if the endodontist is earning for 4 hours that's good going.

    If there is one thing endodontist love its people getting bad root canals, cause if somebody else has ballsed it up you will have to go to them cause only they can fix the mess. Buy cheap and buy twice. Cost and value are not the same thing.

    Havent we have been through all this before? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68173223, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63212821.


  • #48
    sandin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    Zardoz wrote: »
    I need to get a root canal and have been shopping around locally.
    I've found almost no difference in the price from the Irish endontists.
    800 euro for less than 2 hours work in my eyes is extortion.
    I've found a few foreign dentists in Cork that will do the procedure for less than 300 euro,the length of the procedure is the same.
    I know these endontists are specialists and have extra qualifications but 400 euro would be more than enough considering there are almost no raw materials .

    I have spent longer in college than most of them ,and have lots of qualifications in the tech industry and work in a state of the art lab with equipment worth millions of euro yet the company only charge clients 900 euro a day for my services.(I get paid a fraction of that btw)
    These guys are charging that for 2 hours ,no justification for that.Rip off .

    If you require an Endontist, then you are probably talking about a root canal of the wisdom tooth - don't even attempt to go to anybody other than an endontist for this job.

    If its a normal root canal, then you don't need the expertise of an endontist in the same way you don't need a heart surgeon for a broken wrist.


  • #49
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    I'm so glad I previously contacted the EU/IMF to request they force the Irish Gov't into regulating Dental prices here. What goes around comes around.


  • #50
    Zardoz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭Zardoz


    sandin wrote: »
    If you require an Endontist, then you are probably talking about a root canal of the wisdom tooth - don't even attempt to go to anybody other than an endontist for this job.

    If its a normal root canal, then you don't need the expertise of an endontist in the same way you don't need a heart surgeon for a broken wrist.
    Are you sure of that as my dentist referred me to an Endontist ?
    I previously went to an Endontist for a root canal,lower molar,third tooth from back.
    The current problem tooth is the same tooth ,just on the right hand side as opposed to the left.

    With regard to dental costs ,fitzgeme,I dont have an issue with general dental costs;fillings,extraction,exam, etc.
    I happily pay them as my dentist is extremely thorough,and has my best interests in mind.
    Health is wealth.

    Its the specialists whose costs I believe are inflated.
    800 euro is alot of money for 3 hours work and I do not believe that 60% of that cost is expenses.
    Perhaps on a smaller cheaper procedure the cost base % is higher but I cannot fathom how it can be so high for a root canal.
    Whilst I do have dental cover on my health policy which covers me for 50% back up to a max of 300 euro per year ,I still think 800 euro is too much .


  • #51
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    Zardoz wrote: »
    800 euro is alot of money for 3 hours work and I do not believe that 60% of that cost is expenses.
    Perhaps on a smaller cheaper procedure the cost base % is higher but I cannot fathom how it can be so high for a root canal.

    Why not?, smaller jobs are a lot quicker. A general dentist could do 12 fillings at 80 each in 3 hours and make more money. Again not wanting to pay and a rip off are two different things. I know endodontists who charge nearly double what you have been quoted. They can do this because they are the best, and some people are willing to pay for the best.


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