Kilkenny Football - ??

adrian522 · 01-03-2011 6:56pm

I have been following this thread with interest as I have been involved in Kilkenny GAA down through the years though I now live in Dublin so am not involved with any Kilkenny club at present.

A few points to note about football in Kilkenny.

There is already a full senior football championship in Kilkenny with plenty of clubs entering a team. The Inter county football team get full gym membership and get all their gear provided.

Right now as has been pointed out football is a dominant sport in the majority of counties with 31 counties capable of fielding a team in the championship.

On the flip side if you look at the case of hurling you will find that it is in bad need of promotion outside of the traditional strongholds.

Since 1999 only 3 counties have won the all Ireland. Realistically speaking only Waterford and Galway have a chance of winning one in the next 5 years.

You look at counties such as Armagh, Tyrone, Longford, Donegal, Fermanagh, Cavan, Leitrim etc.

A lot of these counties have 1 or 2 senior hurling clubs and no senior championship, you have 10 or 11 guys showing up for inter county training. You have no floodlit pitches available for training.

Yet all the griping is about Kilkenny's football set-up. If you are advocating fining the Kilkenny county board or sacking them as has been suggested on here surely the above counties should also come in for the same criticism?

It all seems a little hypocritical to me.

The example of Dublin is a great example because you have one of the strongest football counties really doing their best to promote the game of hurling and their is a genuine interest here in the game. My brother recently helped set up a club in south Dublin and in their second year they are already fielding a second team.

The difference in Kilkenny I think is that the interest isn't really there. Lads would rather play junior hurling than senior football. Why that is I have no idea but there is certainly no appetite among the top players at senior clubs to play football even at inter county level.

I am sure that the talent is there within the county and even if Kilkenny picked from intermediate hurling clubs they could produce a competitive division 4 football team. The problem though is that the players have no interest in doing it.

One solution I have heard which seems to make the most sense is to split out the clubs into hurling and football clubs so that you have an entire club structure devoted only to football maybe amalgamate a few clubs together so that you would have less football clubs but they may be more competitive.

What ever the solution is its not as easy as "sack the county board"

Martin567 · 01-03-2011 7:35pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

KK have more All Ireland senior hurling titles than anyone else ( everyone knows that) but the comments made towards kk football are trying to undermine the hurling success? - christ almighty that is some load of nonsense. People are commenting because of the disgrace that is the kk football team and how the kk county board apply themselves towards the development of football in their county.
Also just because an effort is made with the footballers DOES NOT mean a fall from grace for the hurlers !! Why do you believe this? Dublin have put in a huge effort with the development of hurling in their county ( a good win over kk on sunday by the way ) has this lowered the capability of the footballers ( who beat Kerry and the All Ireland Champions Cork in the league already). And please do not spout populations - they made an effort, plain and simple! Therein lies the difference!

Can someone please answer the question I've posed twice and I see Adrian has now also done the same. Why is it that that the Kilkenny football team is a disgrace while the hurling teams of around half the country get very little mention. The neglect of hurling is far more widespread and is surely a bigger disgrace.

I don't believe that a better effort with the footballers would mean a fall from grace for the hurlers. Where did I say that? I do believe, however, that most people getting animated about this topic do so from a position of begrudgery towards Kilkenny hurling rather than a genuine love of football. If these people cared so much about the promotion of both sports, the thread about hurling, if one exists, should be far longer.

ShamoBuc · 01-03-2011 7:49pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Show me the thread stretching into 4 or 5 pages bemoaning the work done in promoting hurling in 10 or more counties.

4 or 5 pages? More like 2 if you are on a bigger setting but whatever.
If you want a thread to bemoan the work done in promoting hurling in 10 or so counties START ONE !!!! This one is on the state of KK football - the hint is in the thread title!!!

ShamoBuc · 01-03-2011 7:50pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Can someone please answer the question I've posed twice and I see Adrian has now also done the same. Why is it that that the Kilkenny football team is a disgrace while the hurling teams of around half the country get very little mention. The neglect of hurling is far more widespread and is surely a bigger disgrace.
.

AS ABOVE.

Professey Chin · 01-03-2011 7:52pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Can someone please answer the question I've posed twice and I see Adrian has now also done the same. Why is it that that the Kilkenny football team is a disgrace while the hurling teams of around half the country get very little mention. The neglect of hurling is far more widespread and is surely a bigger disgrace.

I don't believe that a better effort with the footballers would mean a fall from grace for the hurlers. Where did I say that? I do believe, however, that most people getting animated about this topic do so from a position of begrudgery towards Kilkenny hurling rather than a genuine love of football. If these people cared so much about the promotion of both sports, the thread about hurling, if one exists, should be far longer.

I wouldnt even see a neglect of hurling being widespread.There isnt a single hurling county team that continually gets the absolute sh!te beat out of it by every other team.They may not be all challenging KK or Tipp but in their respective divisions theyre at least competitive and are challenging each other to get better. The only GAA intercounty team that does happen to in hurling or football is the KK football team.
This isnt a witchhunt cause of KKs hurling success but the simple fact is it stands out. If the football team was at least competitive in their games even in the lower division nobody would bat an eyelid but the fact theyre so far down the ladder questions will always be asked as to why? What makes them that far behind on a much less specialised sport then hurling when even the most avid football counties are still as respectively competitive as each other in hurling?

eroo · 01-03-2011 7:54pm

To answer your question.. I started this thread about Kilkenny football to discuss the state of that County's IC team. I'm not looking to discuss the issues with low level counties in hurling, in this thread.

I am a hurling fan first and foremost myself, and it is obvious the CB's of most counties are focusing on one code. But the point of this thread is to discuss the future of Kilkenny's shocking IC football team. The issues regarding the state of hurling and the division between KK, Tipp, Waterford and Galway against the rest is one I am very worried about. But as I said, not the issue in this thread.

I read in the Examiner yesterday that KK football board held an emergency meeting on Wednesday night. The outcome? They are still commited to fielding a team for NFL, and their solution is to attract more players. No definite plan though.

bruschi · 01-03-2011 8:42pm

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

I wouldnt even see a neglect of hurling being widespread.There isnt a single hurling county team that continually gets the absolute sh!te beat out of it by every other team.They may not be all challenging KK or Tipp but in their respective divisions theyre at least competitive and are challenging each other to get better. The only GAA intercounty team that does happen to in hurling or football is the KK football team.
This isnt a witchhunt cause of KKs hurling success but the simple fact is it stands out. If the football team was at least competitive in their games even in the lower division nobody would bat an eyelid but the fact theyre so far down the ladder questions will always be asked as to why? What makes them that far behind on a much less specialised sport then hurling when even the most avid football counties are still as respectively competitive as each other in hurling?

I get what you are saying, and would agree to an extent, but the difference in quality between div 1 and 4 in football, is not nearly as stark as the difference as div 1 and 4 in hurling. Sure even the difference between div 1 and 2 in the hurling is too much. Down have been getting hammered by Clare/Wexford/Offaly in div 2 for the last 3 years, by as much as the KK footballers, but they are competetive against their own ilk.

Roscommon won the Connaught title and are in Div 4 in football. No team outside Div 1 in the hurling has a remote chance of even competing at top level.

Martin567 · 01-03-2011 8:44pm

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

I wouldnt even see a neglect of hurling being widespread.There isnt a single hurling county team that continually gets the absolute sh!te beat out of it by every other team.They may not be all challenging KK or Tipp but in their respective divisions theyre at least competitive and are challenging each other to get better. The only GAA intercounty team that does happen to in hurling or football is the KK football team.
This isnt a witchhunt cause of KKs hurling success but the simple fact is it stands out. If the football team was at least competitive in their games even in the lower division nobody would bat an eyelid but the fact theyre so far down the ladder questions will always be asked as to why? What makes them that far behind on a much less specialised sport then hurling when even the most avid football counties are still as respectively competitive as each other in hurling?

The above deals with the exact point I've making but still manages to get it completely wrong. You say neglect of hurling is not widespread because no single team continually gets beaten by the margins that the Kilkenny footballers do. That is the whole point!!!!!

Almost half the hurling teams in the country have the same attitude to hurling that Kilkenny have to football. The difference is that they have each other to play against and the deficiencies get overlooked. Kilkenny have no-one to play at their own level. 31 counties put a serious effort into inter-county football, one doesn't. Being generous, about half of the counties put a serious effort into hurling, the other half doesn't. Which is the bigger problem?

peabutler · 01-03-2011 8:52pm

You can waffle all you like about the structure etc but the fact of it is that in KK no one wants to play Gaelic Football, it doesn't appeal to any youngsters who prefer Hurling followed by Soccer etc. Cutting funding serves no purpose as the Hurling will get the same amount and the Football will get nothing. Football is an afterthought in Kilkenny, the underage teams are usually just a few lads there for gear/fitness etc. It's all about Hurling right through the county not just the Board every young lad and grown man want to play Hurling and making them play football won't serve any purpose as they will drop the ball and head off home.

Another issue is the fact that if you look at Kierans they quite regularly make South Leinster finals and further under age without 4 or 5 of the best lads who would either be Hurling or just not bothered.

Martin567 · 01-03-2011 9:07pm

eroo wrote: »

To answer your question.. I started this thread about Kilkenny football to discuss the state of that County's IC team. I'm not looking to discuss the issues with low level counties in hurling, in this thread.

I am a hurling fan first and foremost myself, and it is obvious the CB's of most counties are focusing on one code. But the point of this thread is to discuss the future of Kilkenny's shocking IC football team. The issues regarding the state of hurling and the division between KK, Tipp, Waterford and Galway against the rest is one I am very worried about. But as I said, not the issue in this thread.

I read in the Examiner yesterday that KK football board held an emergency meeting on Wednesday night. The outcome? They are still commited to fielding a team for NFL, and their solution is to attract more players. No definite plan though.

I'm still beating my head off a brick wall here but as the author of the thread would you consider answering the question. Why does the state of the Kilkenny football team generate far more articles than the state of hurling in the country? Please don't give a glib and irrelevant response like ShamoBuc telling me to start my own thread about the state of hurling and then refuse to answer my question.

eroo · 01-03-2011 10:02pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Why does the state of the Kilkenny football team generate far more articles than the state of hurling in the country?

It doesn't. I have actually seen more articles about the lack of development in hurling competitiveness below KK and Tipp than I have about KK football.

But, once again, hurling has nothing to do with this thread. We are discussing the state of affairs with the Kilkenny football team. It's not a general football topic, it is a specifc discussion on the future of KK in inter county football.

Pride Fighter · 01-03-2011 11:42pm

If Kilkenny do not field a football team they should have half of their block grant taken away from them. The organisation is called the GAA and has 2 sports, and not 1.

adrian522 · 01-03-2011 11:49pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

If Kilkenny do not field a football team they should have half of their block grant taken away from them. The organisation is called the GAA and has 2 sports, and not 1.

Actually it has at least 4, but don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

Kilkenny do field a team, this entire thread is about them getting beaten every week.

Personally I think they would be better off withdrawing until they can get their house in order as it doesn't do them or their opponents any good to receive 30 point hammerings every week. But if funding was going to be taken away I guess they should send out a team of no hopers every week to prevent that from happening.

I'm hearing a lot of recrimination on this thread and not a whole lot of potential solutions.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve the situation other than fining the County board or bringing in Micko?

Pride Fighter · 01-03-2011 11:57pm

adrian522 wrote: »

Actually it has at least 4, but don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

Kilkenny do field a team, this entire thread is about them getting beaten every week.

Personally I think they would be better off withdrawing until they can get their house in order as it doesn't do them or their opponents any good to receive 30 point hammerings every week. But if funding was going to be taken away I guess they should send out a team of no hopers every week to prevent that from happening.

I'm hearing a lot of recrimination on this thread and not a whole lot of potential solutions.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve the situation other than fining the County board or bringing in Micko?

KK do not field a football team in the Liam McCarthy cup so I do not consider them to have a football team even though they have a team in the league. Plenty of solutions have been presented. Sanction is the best solution cause KK spend a disproportionate amount of money on hurling and as a result are the most successful team of the past decade. It is actually amazing Tipp have done so well in hurling considering they have a handy football team and split their money more evenly between the 2 codes.

ShamoBuc · 01-03-2011 11:58pm

Martin567 wrote: »

I'm still beating my head off a brick wall here but as the author of the thread would you consider answering the question. Why does the state of the Kilkenny football team generate far more articles than the state of hurling in the country? Please don't give a glib and irrelevant response like ShamoBuc telling me to start my own thread about the state of hurling and then refuse to answer my question.

I refer you to my earlier 'glib and irrelevant':rolleyes: response and of that of eroo's above, it really is pretty simple to understand! If you still cannot understand, read those posts again and then read the thread title again.

adrian522 · 02-03-2011 12:03am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

KK do not field a football team in the Liam McCarthy cup so I do not consider them to have a football team even though they have a team in the league. Plenty of solutions have been presented. Sanction is the best solution cause KK spend a disproportionate amount of money on hurling and as a result are the most successful team of the past decade. It is actually amazing Tipp have done so well in hurling considering they have a handy football team and split their money more evenly between the 2 codes.

If I may be a pendant , nobody fields a football team in the Liam McCarthy Cup.

Secondly, I honestly don't believe it will do anybody any good for Kilkenny to field a team in the senior Leinster championship.

Sanction is not really a solution to the problem.

Also that is not the reason Kilkenny have been successful over the last decade any more than it is for Tyrone the other way around (who I notice you are not advocating fining).

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 12:03am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

KK do not field a football team in the Liam McCarthy cup so I do not consider them to have a football team even though they have a team in the league. Plenty of solutions have been presented. Sanction is the best solution cause KK spend a disproportionate amount of money on hurling and as a result are the most successful team of the past decade. It is actually amazing Tipp have done so well in hurling considering they have a handy football team and split their money more evenly between the 2 codes.

And Cork are All Ireland Football Champions and we do a bit of hurling aswell, how is this possible

Vorenus · 02-03-2011 12:06am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

KK do not field a football team in the Liam McCarthy cup so I do not consider them to have a football team even though they have a team in the league. Plenty of solutions have been presented. Sanction is the best solution cause KK spend a disproportionate amount of money on hurling and as a result are the most successful team of the past decade. It is actually amazing Tipp have done so well in hurling considering they have a handy football team and split their money more evenly between the 2 codes.

1. No one fields a football team in the Liam McCarthy Cup.

2. It has taken more than money to turn KK into one of the best teams of the last decade.

Bowlardo · 02-03-2011 12:08am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

If Kilkenny do not field a football team they should have half of their block grant taken away from them. The organisation is called the GAA and has 2 sports, and not 1.

Handball is another code of the GAA and we are always top players in the respect!

Martin567 · 02-03-2011 12:12am

eroo wrote: »

It doesn't. I have actually seen more articles about the lack of development in hurling competitiveness below KK and Tipp than I have about KK football.

But, once again, hurling has nothing to do with this thread. We are discussing the state of affairs with the Kilkenny football team. It's not a general football topic, it is a specifc discussion on the future of KK in inter county football.

In terms of articles, I meant comparing the lowest levels in each code, not just below the very top. I certainly haven't seen any county described as disgusting or disgraceful for their neglect of hurling like some of the comments from posters on this thread.

Several people on this thread, including a moderator, stated that Kilkenny should be penalised in some way for not promoting both sports equally. I can't see where you pointed out to them to leave hurling out of the discussion. Yet when anyone mentions half the country neglecting hurling, they are changing the subject. You actually "thanked" Ultimate Chin for his completely inaccurate views on the state of hurling. This would indicate to me that your thinking is somewhat skewed. Can you not acknowledge that Kilkenny are no different to nearly half the 32 counties in terms of their commitment to both hurling and football at inter-county level?

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 12:18am

adrian522 wrote: »

If I may be a pendant , nobody fields a football team in the Liam McCarthy Cup.

Secondly, I honestly don't believe it will do anybody any good for Kilkenny to field a team in the senior Leinster championship.

Sanction is not really a solution to the problem.

Also that is not the reason Kilkenny have been successful over the last decade any more than it is for Tyrone the other way around (who I notice you are not advocating fining).

Why would you want to be a pendant? - sorry just being pedantic;)

While I am not advocating sanction it's hard to say it's not the solution to the problem as it hasn't been tried there!

Why would anyone advocate fining Tyrone in this thread?

There is so much the kk county board could do but don't.
Do they have a football development plan? A strategy in place to develop the skills of the game in primary and secondary schools in the county? Have they developed the underage structure at club level?
Have they sought out the possibility of combining clubs, where needed, (maybe on a divisional basis) where each division is made up of 3 or 4 clubs within a region? - even at u-12, u14 etc?
Have they sought the advice and expertise of Croke Park or the Leinster Council towards development of the game?
Have they contacted the universities and colleges that run sport courses that may have students there from kk, that can do some of their 'hands on' course work in the clubs/schools?

As far as I am concerned they have done fúck all, hence my opinion as stated in previous posts.

Martin567 · 02-03-2011 12:22am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I refer you to my earlier 'glib and irrelevant':rolleyes: response and of that of eroo's above, it really is pretty simple to understand! If you still cannot understand, read those posts again and then read the thread title again.

Thanks for that. I took your advice and referred to your earlier thread. You're correct, it is simple to understand and I understood it fully the first time. It remains, however, glib and completely irrelevant to the point I was making. I note you have still refused to answer my initial question. I will just have to assume that you are equally frustrated at the disgusting and disgraceful failure of Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal, etc, to promote hurling and football equally.

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 12:22am

Bowlardo wrote: »

Handball is another code of the GAA and we are always top players in the respect!

It certainly is - and is Mikey ' Duxie ' Walsh the name of the kk fella who won shít loads of senior titles - a credit to be sure and in fact I'd say he could still make the kk football intercounty team !!!

30txsbzmcu2k9w · 02-03-2011 12:29am

I know little or nothing and i can tell you as a KK man the vast vast majority couldn't give a flying fúck about Gaelic football here.
It's always been that way, whether it has it's roots in the popularity of cricket in the early 20th century as a previous poster mentioned or something else I don't know.
It'll always be a minority sport here, no matter how much money you throw at it.

adrian522 · 02-03-2011 12:29am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Why would you want to be a pendant? - sorry just being pedantic;)

While I am not advocating sanction it's hard to say it's not the solution to the problem as it hasn't been tried there!

Why would anyone advocate fining Tyrone in this thread?

There is so much the kk county board could do but don't.
Do they have a football development plan? A strategy in place to develop the skills of the game in primary and secondary schools in the county? Have they developed the underage structure at club level?
Have they sought out the possibility of combining clubs, where needed, (maybe on a divisional basis) where each division is made up of 3 or 4 clubs within a region? - even at u-12, u14 etc?
Have they sought the advice and expertise of Croke Park or the Leinster Council towards development of the game?
Have they contacted the universities and colleges that run sport courses that may have students there from kk, that can do some of their 'hands on' course work in the clubs/schools?

As far as I am concerned they have done fúck all, hence my opinion as stated in previous posts.

OK, What would a withdrawal of funding actually achieve? Seriously?

The main problem as I see it is there is no interest in the sport of Gaelic football from within the county, not even among players who have no chance of making the hurling team.

I only brought up the Tyrone example as another poster said that Kilkenny's success over the last decade was due to focusing on one sport, which is nonsense in fairness.

Answer me this if you will, why is it so important to you to force Gaelic football on Kilkenny? what difference would it make in the grand scheme of things if Kilkenny don't participate in the senior championship?

After all there are only 13 teams in the senior Hurling championship.

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 12:30am

Martin567 wrote: »

Thanks for that. I took your advice and referred to your earlier thread ( response). You're correct, it is simple to understand and I understood it fully the first time. It remains, however, glib and completely irrelevant to the point I was making. I note you have still refused to answer my initial question. I will just have to assume that you are equally frustrated at the disgusting and disgraceful failure of Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal, etc, to promote hurling and football equally.

your point is completely irrelevant to the state of kk football i.e. This Thread!

Did I say kk should promote hurling and football EQUALLY????
Now that would be comletely impossible, given they don't promote football at all - which is the problem if you hadn't noticed!;)

KingFling · 02-03-2011 12:32am

Kilkenny have dominated in two of the four GAA codes in the past 10-20 years. Kilkenny is also a small county with a much lower no. of clubs than Cork and Tipp etc......

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 12:39am

adrian522 wrote: »

OK, What would a withdrawal of funding actually achieve? Seriously?

The main problem as I see it is there is no interest in the sport of Gaelic football from within the county, not even among players who have no chance of making the hurling team.

I only brought up the Tyrone example as another poster said that Kilkenny's success over the last decade was due to focusing on one sport, which is nonsense in fairness.

Answer me this if you will, why is it so important to you to force Gaelic football on Kilkenny? what difference would it make in the grand scheme of things if Kilkenny don't participate in the senior championship?

After all there are only 13 teams in the senior Hurling championship.

Seriously???? I'll say it again as reading was not promoted either! I am not advocating withdrawal of funding! Thet need to start putting SOME of the money they receive TOWARDS promoting football in the county, it really is that simple.

There are footballers in kk - fact. There are hundreds and hundreds of kids and juveniles that an interest in football CAN be fostered if a development strategy is put in place, i.e. if football is promoted!
Kids can play hurling AND football - they are not mutually exclusive - especially if Promoted Properly! I played hurling, football, soccer and badminton every week when I was growing up. That included training and matches. It is not one or the other!
Teach them and they will come!

Martin567 · 02-03-2011 12:41am

adrian522 wrote: »

Answer me this if you will, why is it so important to you to force Gaelic football on Kilkenny? what difference would it make in the grand scheme of things if Kilkenny don't participate in the senior championship?

After all there are only 13 teams in the senior Hurling championship.

He's unlikely to answer that one as it is apparently not relevant to the original title of the thread. Any divergence at all is strictly prohibited. Except where the result is a better "cut" at Kilkenny of course!

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 12:43am

adrian522 wrote: »

Answer me this if you will, why is it so important to you to force Gaelic football on Kilkenny? what difference would it make in the grand scheme of things if Kilkenny don't participate in the senior championship?

Also, I wasn't aware that they compete in the championship? If they get hockeyed by 25 to 30 points in each game for years, can you imagine them againt Dublin in the championship? - that would do absoultely nothing to develop football in kk - a bit like their county board to be honest!
Slán.

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 12:44am

Martin567 wrote: »

He's unlikely to answer that one as it is apparently not relevant to the original title of the thread. Any divergence at all is strictly prohibited. Except where the result is a better "cut" at Kilkenny of course!

^^^ :rolleyes:

adrian522 · 02-03-2011 12:57am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Seriously???? I'll say it again as reading was not promoted either! I am not advocating withdrawal of funding! Thet need to start putting SOME of the money they receive TOWARDS promoting football in the county, it really is that simple.

There are footballers in kk - fact. There are hundreds and hundreds of kids and juveniles that an interest in football CAN be fostered if a development strategy is put in place, i.e. if football is promoted!
Kids can play hurling AND football - they are not mutually exclusive - especially if Promoted Properly! I played hurling, football, soccer and badminton every week when I was growing up. That included training and matches. It is not one or the other!
Teach them and they will come!

Well when you said

" it's hard to say it's not the solution to the problem as it hasn't been tried there!"

I thought you were advocating it. But anyway, you make some good points but I believe my point is still valid, there is no appetite for the sport in Kilkenny.

I understand they are not mutually exclusive I played both when I was in school. In Kilkenny.

The game does get played it's just that people prefer to play hurling. Why that is I can only guess but its not going to change by forcing Kilkenny to get slaughtered in the championship every year.

I'd love to see a competitive Kilkenny football team but it is not going to happen in the short term as unfortunately there is no quick fix.

As I said before the GAA should be focused on trying to promote hurling in the 16 or 17 counties where it is weak rather than promoting football in the 1 county where it is weak.

adrian522 · 02-03-2011 1:03am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Also, I wasn't aware that they compete in the championship? If they get hockeyed by 25 to 30 points in each game for years, can you imagine them againt Dublin in the championship? - that would do absoultely nothing to develop football in kk - a bit like their county board to be honest!
Slán.

Thats my point exactly but this whole thread seems to about forcing Kilkenny into the championship when it will serve no purpose whatsoever.

It's funny that there is no one from Kilkenny arguing for the sport to be promoted more within the county and there in lies the problem as far as I can see.

flahavaj · 02-03-2011 1:30am

Martin567 wrote: »

The above deals with the exact point I've making but still manages to get it completely wrong. You say neglect of hurling is not widespread because no single team continually gets beaten by the margins that the Kilkenny footballers do. That is the whole point!!!!!

Almost half the hurling teams in the country have the same attitude to hurling that Kilkenny have to football. The difference is that they have each other to play against and the deficiencies get overlooked. Kilkenny have no-one to play at their own level. 31 counties put a serious effort into inter-county football, one doesn't. Being generous, about half of the counties put a serious effort into hurling, the other half doesn't. Which is the bigger problem?

The question isn't so much which is the bigger problem. Hurling is a more specialised sport. The fact that KK are the only county that doesn't bother with a game that really only requires a bit of organisation and hard work in which to be competitive is laughable.

riffmongous · 02-03-2011 1:35am

adrian522 wrote: »

It's funny that there is no one from Kilkenny arguing for the sport to be promoted more within the county and there in lies the problem as far as I can see.

I think more people would be in favour of scrapping the senior county team and letting the players and top clubs play for Carlow or Laois instead.

And in that case you would have to scrap the funding too, fair is fair. Whats is the funding like actually? I read in the Indo a few weeks back that Tipp spent 1.2million this year and Kk spent 0.6mill, does anyone here have a link to that either, I can't find it.

eroo · 02-03-2011 1:59am

Martin567 wrote: »

In terms of articles, I meant comparing the lowest levels in each code, not just below the very top. I certainly haven't seen any county described as disgusting or disgraceful for their neglect of hurling like some of the comments from posters on this thread.

Several people on this thread, including a moderator, stated that Kilkenny should be penalised in some way for not promoting both sports equally. I can't see where you pointed out to them to leave hurling out of the discussion. Yet when anyone mentions half the country neglecting hurling, they are changing the subject. You actually "thanked" Ultimate Chin for his completely inaccurate views on the state of hurling. This would indicate to me that your thinking is somewhat skewed. Can you not acknowledge that Kilkenny are no different to nearly half the 32 counties in terms of their commitment to both hurling and football at inter-county level?

Why are your posts so repitively off topic? It was not me who brought hurling into this thread. You are seeking to complicate things here, needlessly. Yes, the likes of my own county's board, Cavan, Meath, Louth, Tipp etc all have questions to answer in regards to promotion of 1 code over another. No one is doubting that. What we are attempting to discuss here is the current situation in KK IC football. We are not saying the CB in KK are the only board in the country who are selective with funding. The complete opposite is fact.

Hurling has it's own problems. We are not discussing that here. This is solely devoted to the crisis that is the Kilkenny football team.

I started this thread because I find it ridiculous that any IC football team can be sent out and be beaten to such an extent where their biggest goal would be to actually win or draw a match for the first time in 3 years!

adrian522 wrote: »

Thats my point exactly but this whole thread seems to about forcing Kilkenny into the championship when it will serve no purpose whatsoever.

It's funny that there is no one from Kilkenny arguing for the sport to be promoted more within the county and there in lies the problem as far as I can see.

Where did anybody say KK should be forced to play in the Championship? That would not address the situation.

KK's football situation is so dire, imo, because they have never seen success. Kids don't play it because they don't see a future in it i.e. playing football in Croke Park in September. As a result they play sports where they can emulate their heroes i.e. hurling, rugby, soccer.. to the detriment of football. It doesn't matter if a County is historically a hurling or football dominated County, in the modern games the County Boards should be promoting them equally.

A solution for KK's footballers might be to do something very similiar to ourselves: parentage rule. If that brought wins for the KK football team in a few years time, it would place the panel on a good footing to develop.

timogen · 02-03-2011 3:00am

Just to give my two cents as a kilkenny man.When i played underage for piltown we could play both codes if we wanted,i wanted to play hurling and i have a few medals at home in the press and two of them all-ireland ones,that's about twenty years ago now.
But what people are coming out with on this thread is silly.If i was good but couldn't make it onto intercounty hurling panel,I should play football
Why should i, i don't like to play the game.
The people giving out about the kilkenny county board,Have you actually seen the accounts and the way funds are distributed or have ye proof that they were misused.
The man that is over the kilkenny football,was a rent man in my area for the co.co. up to a few years back but i speak to him regularly and i have never heard him say that football in kilkenny was underfunded.

Hammer Archer · 02-03-2011 3:44am

Aren't Cavan considering disbanding their hurling team? Where's the thread about that? Also Cavan hurlers and Kilkenny footballers have lost their games in the league by an almost identical amount. I know that they are two completely different sports but I would rate the quality of opponents in Divison 4 in football as far greater than in the same division in hurling.

So many more counties put the same effort into promoting hurling in their county as Kilkenny does with football. The only reason Kilkenny footballer's stand out so much is they do not have an opponent they can possibly match in Ireland whereas all the poor hurling teams have their own league/championship where every team has a chance to win a few games. And you'll need a hell of a lot more than money to garner interest in football amongst Kilkenny people to be honest.

bruschi · 02-03-2011 9:54am

If Kilkenny were crap at hurling, this thread would not exist. To try say this thread is only about KK footballers and has nothing to do with hurling is wrong.

as others have pointed out, I dont get why people get so flustered at Kilkenny not making an effort at football, but seemingly it doesnt matter that there are 15 counties who dont make an effort at hurling.

Kilkenny arent interested in football, so what? football will not die, there are plenty of other counties to keep it alive.

More counties have no interest in hurling. That is a far worse predicament, because hurling as a whole will suffer.

Martin567 · 02-03-2011 10:58am

bruschi wrote: »

If Kilkenny were crap at hurling, this thread would not exist. To try say this thread is only about KK footballers and has nothing to do with hurling is wrong.

as others have pointed out, I dont get why people get so flustered at Kilkenny not making an effort at football, but seemingly it doesnt matter that there are 15 counties who dont make an effort at hurling.

Kilkenny arent interested in football, so what? football will not die, there are plenty of other counties to keep it alive.

More counties have no interest in hurling. That is a far worse predicament, because hurling as a whole will suffer.

The above is clearly true and only a few disingenuous posters continue to claim that this thread has nothing to do with hurling. Eroo says he didn't bring hurling into the discussion. Perhaps, but he didn't contradict those who suggested sanctions against Kilkenny and who said Kilkenny's hurling success was due to their ignoring of football. In fact, he agreed with another poster who said Div 3 & Div 4 hurling teams have not neglected hurling to the same extent as Kilkenny have neglected football.

I will accept his exceptionally rigid view of what this topic is really about when he tells other posters to leave Kilkenny hurling out the discussion.

eroo · 02-03-2011 3:48pm

I'm not a mod, so I wont be telling people to stay on topic. Not my job!

eroo · 02-03-2011 3:58pm

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Aren't Cavan considering disbanding their hurling team? Where's the thread about that? Also Cavan hurlers and Kilkenny footballers have lost their games in the league by an almost identical amount. I know that they are two completely different sports but I would rate the quality of opponents in Divison 4 in football as far greater than in the same division in hurling.

So many more counties put the same effort into promoting hurling in their county as Kilkenny does with football. The only reason Kilkenny footballer's stand out so much is they do not have an opponent they can possibly match in Ireland whereas all the poor hurling teams have their own league/championship where every team has a chance to win a few games. And you'll need a hell of a lot more than money to garner interest in football amongst Kilkenny people to be honest.

Therein lies the problem! I did not suggest sanctions against KK board, as the blame does not lay entirely at their door. From what some people on here have said, the individual footballers attitude is also a problem.

What I highlighted in your post is THE problem.

bruschi wrote: »

If Kilkenny were crap at hurling, this thread would not exist. To try say this thread is only about KK footballers and has nothing to do with hurling is wrong.

as others have pointed out, I dont get why people get so flustered at Kilkenny not making an effort at football, but seemingly it doesnt matter that there are 15 counties who dont make an effort at hurling.

Kilkenny arent interested in football, so what? football will not die, there are plenty of other counties to keep it alive.

More counties have no interest in hurling. That is a far worse predicament, because hurling as a whole will suffer.

How many more times do I have to say this?? Really? I know their is a serious problem in hurling with regards to the gaps between teams in each Division, but that is for another threadi.e. a Cavan Hurling thread! I'm not here to discuss the state of hurling or football as a game either..

I wanted to discuss with you why it is that an IC football team can be sent out to play, and then be humiliated by some of the worst scores in GAA history? What can be done to stop this? Complete withdrawl? Import talent and coaching experience?

Martin567 · 02-03-2011 4:03pm

eroo wrote: »

I'm not a mod, so I wont be telling people to stay on topic. Not my job!

Pretty ironic, don't you think, given your comments to me on earlier replies. I've clearly explained why everything I've said on this thread is central to the whole discussion.

blackbelt · 02-03-2011 4:08pm

Great at hurling or bad at hurling,it is still not good enough to have an intercounty team getting hammered to death week in,week out.Even if the KCB never pumped another cent into funding hurling,there still has to be a mindset that there are footballers in the county and fans that want to see Kilkenny be at least competitive.

Being a Dublin fan,I grew up watching the likes of Barney Rock,Brian Stynes,Tommy Carr,Dermot O Leary,Paul Curran,Vinny Murphy,Charlie Redmond and Jason Sherlock put up heroic performances.I can still safely say that if Dublin were in the doldrums all those years and without those players that other footballers would have still encouraged me to pick up the game.Players like Anthony Rainbow,Mickey Linden,Manus Boyle,Maurice FitzGerald and Colm O Rourke who played the game with passion,the way it should be played would have encouraged players to pick up the game.

The real issue,ignoring the skill of hurling in Kilkenny,is the contempt that is shown towards gaelic football.

Martin567 · 02-03-2011 4:43pm

blackbelt wrote: »

The real issue,ignoring the skill of hurling in Kilkenny,is the contempt that is shown towards gaelic football.

Of course it is. We know that. There simply is not a sufficient number of people in Kilkenny who care about Gaelic Football. This encompasses adminstrators, players, clubs and the general public. Not enough people care about the current plight of the team or whether there even is a team.

Why is that? The biggest reason is a simple peculiarity of geography. I would imagine that Kilkenny is the only county in Ireland where there is not a single parish where football is the main sport. All the counties bordering Kilkenny have football areas within their borders. However, the areas bordering Kilkenny are almost exclusively hurling areas within those counties.

If you accept that 99.9% of people in Kilkenny care little about Gaelic Football, where do we go from there? This could simply be the end of the discussion and we just do nothing. People in other counties don't want to accept this however. We are told that we will have to be made to like and develop it properly. How do you make sufficient numbers of people care about something they simply don't? Also, why is it so important that Kilkenny improve their level of football? There are already 31 counties playing it to a decent level, why is it so important that Kilkenny do likewise? 31 counties compete for Sam Maguire, 13 for Liam McCarthy. Only 12 compete for both. Why is it that the other 19 never get the same level of criticism aimed at Kilkenny?

This always leads on, as on this thread, to talk about threats and sanctions if Kilkenny don't put a proper effort into football. How is it possible to address this issue without discussing the many counties who only put a token effort into hurling? I am being told to stick to the topic when this is clearly central to the whole issue. Hurling is treated with similar contempt in at least half the country with only a fraction of the comment. Cavan hurlers are losing by bigger margins than the Kilkenny footballers against opposition which, relatively speaking, are far weaker than those the Kilkenny footballers are playing against. Does anyone care? Not as far as I can see.

If anyone chooses to respond to the above, I would appreciate it if you could respond to the substantive issue and not just selectively quote individual lines to avoid the main issue.

eroo · 02-03-2011 5:04pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Of course it is. We know that. There simply is not a sufficient number of people in Kilkenny who care about Gaelic Football. This encompasses adminstrators, players, clubs and the general public. Not enough people care about the current plight of the team or whether there even is a team.

Why is that? The biggest reason is a simple peculiarity of geography. I would imagine that Kilkenny is the only county in Ireland where there is not a single parish where football is the main sport. All the counties bordering Kilkenny have football areas within their borders. However, the areas bordering Kilkenny are almost exclusively hurling areas within those counties.

If you accept that 99.9% of people in Kilkenny care little about Gaelic Football, where do we go from there? This could simply be the end of the discussion and we just do nothing. People in other counties don't want to accept this however. We are told that we will have to be made to like and develop it properly. How do you make sufficient numbers of people care about something they simply don't? Also, why is it so important that Kilkenny improve their level of football? There are already 31 counties playing it to a decent level, why is it so important that Kilkenny do likewise? 31 counties compete for Sam Maguire, 13 for Liam McCarthy. Only 12 compete for both. Why is it that the other 19 never get the same level of criticism aimed at Kilkenny?

This always leads on, as on this thread, to talk about threats and sanctions if Kilkenny don't put a proper effort into football. How is it possible to address this issue without discussing the many counties who only put a token effort into hurling? I am being told to stick to the topic when this is clearly central to the whole issue. Hurling is treated with similar contempt in at least half the country with only a fraction of the comment. Cavan hurlers are losing by bigger margins than the Kilkenny footballers against opposition which, relatively speaking, are far weaker than those the Kilkenny footballers are playing against. Does anyone care? Not as far as I can see.

If anyone chooses to respond to the above, I would appreciate it if you could respond to the substantive issue and not just selectively quote individual lines to avoid the main issue.

What evidence have you to suggest that 99.9% of people don't care? I bet there is a sizeable number of people who care, and would show up to matches if they could expect a performance. I wouldn't pay €75 for KK football season ticket, where your only hope would be too see the team not lose by more than 10 points. Nobody here is saying people should be forced into football. That is ridiculous, and your simply putting words into our mouths. We are saying the people who care about football in KK should be treated with respect, as opposed to being given a team that can't register a single point against Leitrim. Yes it is the same with the Cavan hurlers, but this discussion is not about them. Their football team is struggling badly too, so it is a development, coaching and training problem in the county imo.

The reason those counties don't get the same level of criticism, is because they are struggling in both codes at the best of times. KK have already shown they have a recipe for success at hurling i.e. development squads, coaching structure etc Why not apply that same structure to football?

Martin567 · 02-03-2011 5:50pm

eroo wrote: »

What evidence have you to suggest that 99.9% of people don't care? I bet there is a sizeable number of people who care, and would show up to matches if they could expect a performance. I wouldn't pay €75 for KK football season ticket, where your only hope would be too see the team not lose by more than 10 points. Nobody here is saying people should be forced into football. That is ridiculous, and your simply putting words into our mouths. We are saying the people who care about football in KK should be treated with respect, as opposed to being given a team that can't register a single point against Leitrim. Yes it is the same with the Cavan hurlers, but this discussion is not about them. Their football team is struggling badly too, so it is a development, coaching and training problem in the county imo.

The reason those counties don't get the same level of criticism, is because they are struggling in both codes at the best of times. KK have already shown they have a recipe for success at hurling i.e. development squads, coaching structure etc Why not apply that same structure to football?

I live in Kilkenny so I think I know it a lot better than you. It may not be 99.9% but it genuinely would not be far short. You may find that hard to believe but there's not much I can do about that.

Look at the few truly dual counties. They all have areas which are predominantly hurling and predominantly football. Even counties like Laois & Offaly (smaller than Kilkenny) have completely separate areas within the county where one sport dominates. There are very few truly dual clubs in the country outside the larger towns and cities of the few dual counties. Kilkenny simply does not have this. Every parish in the county has a hurling team with aspirations of success at whatever level they play at. Football simply doesn't figure. Maybe that's wrong, maybe it isn't but that's just how it is.

Sure Kilkenny could probably make a better effort but the problem is they simply don't have enough players to draw from who really care. Like it or not, that is a fact.

If I said that Kilkenny should simply withdraw and forget about football, would you leave it at that and say end of discussion? Maybe but I'm sure there would be lots of others who wouldn't and would simply jump in talking about sanctions, etc. That's why I have to bring the neglect of hurling in half the country into the discussion. It is quite simply wrong to say that is a separate issue. Whatever you may think, many of the comments here are tantamount to suggesting that several areas in Kilkenny should be forced to concentrate on football rather than hurling. That being the case, the 19 counties who do not contest the Liam McCarthy are integral to this issue.

ShamoBuc · 02-03-2011 6:41pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Whatever you may think, many of the comments here are tantamount to suggesting that several areas in Kilkenny should be forced to concentrate on football rather than hurling.

Source?

timogen · 02-03-2011 11:56pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Source?

Maybe not forced but in the very second post on this thread which eroo also thanked i might add,had in if if some of the talented hurlers that dont make it on to the senior panel be asked to players for the footballers.How do you people know they weren't asked and turned it down.
Also why should the players who want to play football for there county be denied?
They might be out of there depth but they want to play the game and that's the level they have to play.

ShamoBuc · 03-03-2011 12:55am

timogen wrote: »

Maybe not forced but in the very second post on this thread which eroo also thanked i might add,had in if if some of the talented hurlers that dont make it on to the senior panel be asked to players for the footballers.How do you people know they weren't asked and turned it down.
Also why should the players who want to play football for there county be denied?
They might be out of there depth but they want to play the game and that's the level they have to play.

Wow - that's an irrefutable source alright;)

There is some sense in the rest of your post...... somewhere.

Kilkenny Football - ??

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