Shale Gas - Mod note post#117

easychair · 08-05-2011 8:08am #1

I see Lord Lawson's Global Warming Policy Foundation has produced an interesting report on Shale gas. It seems shale gas could provide us with relatively clean energy ( clean compared to oil and gas anyhow) for centuries ahead, and go some way to helping us overcome the worries some have about peak oil, and to decarbonise the world quickly. Also, the quantity of gas available to be exploited is this way should bring down the price of gas and make fuel more affordable.

The report is here http://www.thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/Shale-Gas_4_May_11.pdf and

Capt'n Midnight · 08-05-2011 10:27pm

cba reading it

can you give a figure for extraction efficiency , as in how much of the fuel is consumed to provide energy to extract the rest and how that affects the CO2 emission ?

easychair · 09-05-2011 8:33am

I'm afraid I am not an authority so have no idea about extraction efficiency. I imagine if it were very inefficient that would deter companies who are extracting gas in this way.

BryanF · 11-05-2011 3:15pm

The GWPF seems to saving that shale gas offers a cheaper alternative too oil, nuclear and renewable's. I doubt that when you consider the environmental and human cost of extraction and the GHG emissions caused by burning shale gas into the future... They also criticise environmental groups and other fossil fuel energy producers. I'd like to know who funded their study?

I would recommend this documentary out http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/gasland/ , there may be some fibs but the pictures speak for themselves

Some commentators are saving there may be as much as 250 years worth of this shale gas, and I can see why its considered a great solution, anythings better than Gasprom having a monopoly..

this gives some background to normal natural gas http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3673 while this http://peakoil.com/production/shale-gas-the-problem-with-eroei/ gives you an idea of the hidden issues

To address the OPs question, there is no fossil fuel 'relatively clean' energy source, IMHO or best options are to start producing massive amounts of wind, solar and wave systems and solve the storage problem, probably easiest with the proposed inter-connectors and some pumped storage reservoirs. Even then Nuclear seems like it will be in the mix, probably bought from the UK as is the case at the moment.

"a modest IEA scenario, by 2035, three-quarters of the world’s oil production from existing fields will need to be replaced" Mr Tanaka (IEA)
http://sustainable-energy-ireland.circulator.com/Content.aspx?ID=23465&SubscriberID=2626341&NewsletterID=23460&SendID=45982&AddEvent=True

May I also recommend these two books, in lieu of Ireland having any decent literature on the subject
http://www.zerocarbonbritain.org/
http://www.withouthotair.com/

Capt'n Midnight · 11-05-2011 11:21pm

http://www.feasta.org/2011/04/21/shale-gas-drilling-to-begin-in-ireland/

The rush has reached Ireland and in February, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources gave Enegi Oil an option over 495-square kilometres in the Clare Basin. an area which covers all of Clare and part of Kerry and Limerick.  The company believes there is shale gas similar to that found in Newfoundland as both areas were joined together hundreds of millions of years ago. Chief executive Alan Minty said they were investing up to €650,000 in the initial exploration. He said they would apply for exploration licences should the work programme identify prospective targets.

BryanF · 11-05-2011 11:34pm

I hope they don't find any! I would like to see more info on how they proposed to extract the stuff

good article by feasta, thanks for that Capt'n

easychair · 20-05-2011 8:46am

BryanF wrote: »

I hope they don't find any! I would like to see more info on how they proposed to extract the stuff

good article by feasta, thanks for that Capt'n

I wonder why you hope Ireland doesn't find any shale gas?

BryanF · 20-05-2011 10:37am

easychair wrote: »

I wonder why you hope Ireland doesn't find any shale gas?

please look at the documentary above, shale gas exploration can be very damaging to the landscape and environment, not to mention GHG emissions. I would rather see us concentrate on developing world class wind and wave technologies.

easychair · 20-05-2011 11:56am

BryanF wrote: »

please look at the documentary above, shale gas exploration can be very damaging to the landscape and environment, not to mention GHG emissions. I would rather see us concentrate on developing world class wind and wave technologies.

I have looked at the documentary, and I am able to see it's been made to suit a certain agenda. I think it foolhardy to refuse to examine if we have a natural resource which might save us billions in importing gas, on the strenght of a documentary made by someone with a specific aganda. Or even by someone without a specific agenda.

We already have quite advance wind technologies and, as we speak, the existing technologies are being improved and worked on. Why you think that should prevent us exploring other natural resources seems unclear. If the result of that exploring is that we decide its going to be too damaging to the environment or landscape, or anything else, simple exploring it now doesn't force us to proceed to exploit it, if thats what we decide. Lets base that on proper evidenc, and not on a youtube documentary, or even a non youtube documentary!

BryanF · 20-05-2011 12:28pm

easychair wrote: »

I have looked at the documentary, and I am able to see it's been made to suit a certain agenda. I think it foolhardy to refuse to examine if we have a natural resource which might save us billions in importing gas, on the strenght of a documentary made by someone with a specific aganda. Or even by someone without a specific agenda.

We already have quite advance wind technologies and, as we speak, the existing technologies are being improved and worked on. Why you think that should prevent us exploring other natural resources seems unclear. If the result of that exploring is that we decide its going to be too damaging to the environment or landscape, or anything else, simple exploring it now doesn't force us to proceed to exploit it, if thats what we decide. Lets base that on proper evidenc, and not on a youtube documentary, or even a non youtube documentary!

Fine, lets wait and see what 'we decide' and the proper evidence, my concerns lie with shale gas extraction. In my above post I recognised the agenda in the documentary, and I then went on to highlight the issues of shale gases EROEI and its production of GHG's, not to mention enviro cost of extraction.
I'll repeat (with the in IMHO preamble) I'm more keen to see budgets spent on renewable technologies than exploration for fossil fuels. I would like to see an attempt to slow down Climate change as much as I'm concious of peak oil and see wind and wave the best resource we have to do that.

easychair · 21-05-2011 12:52pm

BryanF wrote: »

Fine, lets wait and see what 'we decide' and the proper evidence, my concerns lie with shale gas extraction. In my above post I recognised the agenda in the documentary, and I then went on to highlight the issues of shale gases EROEI and its production of GHG's, not to mention enviro cost of extraction.
I'll repeat (with the in IMHO preamble) I'm more keen to see budgets spent on renewable technologies than exploration for fossil fuels. I would like to see an attempt to slow down Climate change as much as I'm concious of peak oil and see wind and wave the best resource we have to do that.

It does come across in your posts that you are not keen on flossil fuels. Personally, I try to keep an open mind and don't really mind where the cuelo comes from just so long as the power keeps on coming. Currently, wind or wave power is not dependable, but gas turbines are dependable so long as there is a supply of gas. That one fact alone rules out us being able to depend on wind or wave power, alas.

djpbarry · 22-05-2011 4:03pm

easychair wrote: »

Currently, wind or wave power is not dependable...

Wave power is still in its infancy. Wind power, on the other hand, certainly is dependable - it is meeting a significant portion of Ireland’s electricity demand and may be depended upon to continue doing so in the future.

BryanF · 22-05-2011 4:25pm

easychair wrote: »

It does come across in your posts that you are not keen on flossil fuels. Personally, I try to keep an open mind and don't really mind where the cuelo comes from just so long as the power keeps on coming. Currently, windor wave poweris not dependable,but gas turbines are dependable so long as there is a supply of gas. That one fact alone rules out us being able to depend on wind or wave power, alas.

:eek:

Mahatma coat · 22-05-2011 7:00pm

Is this that fracking thing again????????

easychair · 23-05-2011 8:39am

BryanF wrote: »

:eek:

Isn't it dreadful when bad things happen to good sentences! My point was simply that we only get wind power when the wind is blowing, and waves when there are waves, and tidal power when the tide is going in or out at the right place. With oil, gas or nuclear, we can get power whenever we need it, with wind, wavew or tide, we can get power only when conditions are right.

dynamick · 23-05-2011 11:31am

easychair wrote: »

Isn't it dreadful when bad things happen to good sentences! My point was simply that we only get wind power when the wind is blowing, and waves when there are waves, and tidal power when the tide is going in or out at the right place. With oil, gas or nuclear, we can get power whenever we need it, with wind, wavew or tide, we can get power only when conditions are right.

So, do you think that Ireland should not encourage renewable energy and should rely 100% on fossil fuel sources?

Capt'n Midnight · 23-05-2011 8:22pm

easychair wrote: »

Isn't it dreadful when bad things happen to good sentences! My point was simply that we only get wind power when the wind is blowing, and waves when there are waves, and tidal power when the tide is going in or out at the right place. With oil, gas or nuclear, we can get power whenever we need it, with wind, wavew or tide, we can get power only when conditions are right.

Pumped storage
Base line Tidal power is predictable years in advance

The big problem with renewables is that the cheapest way to store energy is fossil fuel. Only problem is that energy was stored hundreds of millions of years ago and there is a finite supply.

Energy generation comes from a variety of sources, each of which have good and bad points. (OK Hydro is mostly good except all the low hanging fruit has been taken)

Oh yeah 50MW biomass plant up in Sligo Mayo to be buiild soon.

BryanF · 23-05-2011 8:51pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Oh yeah 50MW biomass plant up in Sligo to be buiild soon.

Whats the fuel, local I presume, is it coillte thinnings, coppice or miscanthus

dynamick · 24-05-2011 1:11am

There is a 50MW biomass facility planned for Mayo. It is to run on willow.

BryanF · 24-05-2011 10:53am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/23/mps-reject-moratorium-shale-gas?intcmp=122

It seems the UK gov are having a similar debate

dynamick · 24-05-2011 12:21pm

France bans shale gas drilling
http://www.channel4.com/news/france-votes-to-ban-shale-gas-drilling

Capt'n Midnight · 24-05-2011 1:28pm

dynamick wrote: »

There is a 50MW biomass facility planned for Mayo. It is to run on willow.

http://www.mayotoday.ie/index.php/browse-mayo-news-by-category/going-green/item/2629-first-willow-crop-shows-bright-future-for-bioenergy-in-mayo.html?tmpl=component&print=1

Brendan Killion and Christian Jenne of the Mayo Energy Agency opened the event with an overview of Energy Key Drivers outlining that Ireland imports approximately 90% of its fuel for energy and that we needed to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels and reduce our carbon emissions.
...

Dave Shaffer Project Manager for Mayo Power and Joyanne Manning of Arup Consulting gave an introduction to the 50MW Biomass Power Station at the old Asahi Site in Killala, Co Mayo that is currently in planning with Mayo Co Council.

The €100 million project will create over 200 jobs during construction, 26 jobs to operate the power plant and 75 indirect job.

Dave Shaffer also explained: “There is huge potential for job creation in agriculture to supply local biomass to the plant. Approximately 40,000 hectares of biomass within the region will be required equating to an annual fuel supply of €20m that can be produced locally”.

Mayo Power will offer 10 year Contracts to farmers, giving a guaranteed market for their Biomass crops. Farmers will be given advice on crop management and a supply of Ash from the facility to fertilize the crops.

40,000 hectares ?

the amount of arable land in 1968 was 1,400,000 hectares
now it's 1,100,000 hectares

so we could get 375MW from the difference before we consider using forests or currently used arable land or seaweed (it used to be burnt for the minerals)
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/arable-land-hectares-wb-data.html

Arable land (hectares) in Ireland

This page includes a chart with historical data for Arable land (hectares) in Ireland. Arable land (in hectares) includes land defined by the FAO as land under temporary crops (double-cropped areas are counted once), temporary meadows for mowing or for pasture, land under market or kitchen gardens, and land temporarily fallow. Land abandoned as a result of shifting cultivation is excluded.

easychair · 03-06-2011 8:25am

dynamick wrote: »

So, do you think that Ireland should not encourage renewable energy and should rely 100% on fossil fuel sources?

Thats what is called a false premise, as Ireland currently relies on fossil fuels. as the renewables Ireland uses are not capable of a continuous and reliable supply.

While I think, for example, wind power is interesting and in many ways wonderful, one thing which can't be claimed for it is that it is reliable.

djpbarry · 03-06-2011 8:35am

easychair wrote: »

While I think, for example, wind power is interesting and in many ways wonderful, one thing which can't be claimed for it is that it is reliable.

Define "reliable".

dynamick · 03-06-2011 10:20am

easychair wrote: »

While I think, for example, wind power is interesting and in many ways wonderful, one thing which can't be claimed for it is that it is reliable.

If you used a windmill to provide electricity to your house instead of a diesel generator then the fridge wouldn't work when the the wind dropped. And if you used solar to power your house then you couldn't switch on the lights at night because the sun doesn't shine at night.

Is this your insight?

easychair · 03-06-2011 12:08pm

dynamick wrote: »

If you used a windmill to provide electricity to your house instead of a diesel generator then the fridge wouldn't work when the the wind dropped. And if you used solar to power your house then you couldn't switch on the lights at night because the sun doesn't shine at night.

Is this your insight?

More or less, but without the sarcasm.

If one then looks beyond those two obvious facts, one then has to realise that we have to have installed capacity, currently powered by fossil fuels.

And then when one thinks some more, you realise that a domestic situation, such as you suggest, is different from a national situation. While it's fine at home to have the lights all go out when the wind drops, and then you can fumble about for a bit to get your diesel generator fired up, this is not acceptable in a national or commercial situation, so the installed capacity has to be kept going to ensure continuous supply when the wind drops. Otherwise we'd have the power going on and off while the wind drops and the installed capacity is geared up.

then one thinks again, and one realsies that a large power station takes time to, literally, build up steam, so if they are not kept going we might experience reasonable lengthy power cuts when the wind drops.

However, I am not against new and innovative forms of generating power. Quite the opposite and I think its a fascinating, valuable and necessary development for our future. What i am against is fashionable ideas which, when examined, are not very good as solutions.

nedzer2011 · 03-06-2011 12:16pm

For anyone put off by the (somewhat ridiculous) Gasland documentary see this article:
http://www.energyindepth.org/2010/06/debunking-gasland/

djpbarry · 03-06-2011 12:33pm

easychair wrote: »

And then when one thinks some more, you realise that a domestic situation, such as you suggest, is different from a national situation. While it's fine at home to have the lights all go out when the wind drops, and then you can fumble about for a bit to get your diesel generator fired up, this is not acceptable in a national or commercial situation, so the installed capacity has to be kept going to ensure continuous supply when the wind drops. Otherwise we'd have the power going on and off while the wind drops and the installed capacity is geared up.

Why do you keep arguing against a point that nobody has made? No-one is suggesting that Ireland (or any other country) should aim to be 100% dependent on renewables, yet you keep pointing out that this would not be a practical situation. Not because renewables are “unreliable” or “unpredictable”, but because they tend to be intermittent.

djpbarry · 03-06-2011 12:33pm

nedzer2011 wrote: »

For anyone put off by the (somewhat ridiculous) Gasland documentary...

I don’t believe anyone has mentioned such a documentary.

nedzer2011 · 03-06-2011 12:45pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t believe anyone has mentioned such a documentary.

See post by Brian F, close to start of thread (11/05/11 @ 15:15). Gives a very lob sided view of an industry which could be a great alternative fuel source into the future.

djpbarry · 03-06-2011 2:20pm

nedzer2011 wrote: »

See post by Brian F, close to start of thread (11/05/11 @ 15:15).

Ah, fair enough. Sorry, I missed that.

Oldtree · 12-06-2011 12:29pm

An article in the Irish Times yesterday says that 2 onshore petroleum licences were granted in February for the Lough Allen area:

http://m.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0611/1224298716471.html?via=mostread

I am yet to be convinced that fracking is not a serious environmental problem.

But more along the lines of what I think should be happening in Ireland the biomass plant in mayo just recently got the go ahead from the council (but will probably be appealed shortly):

http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mcc4/PlanningViewer/displayafile.asp?filenum=10997&la=1

Oldtree · 12-06-2011 12:44pm

ps: a map in the times indicated parts of Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Fermanagh,Roscommon and Cavan are included in the Lough Allen basin

nedzer2011 · 13-06-2011 9:23am

Oldtree wrote: »

An article in the Irish Times yesterday says that 2 onshore petroleum licences were granted in February for the Lough Allen area:

http://m.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0611/1224298716471.html?via=mostread

I am yet to be convinced that fracking is not a serious environmental problem.

But more along the lines of what I think should be happening in Ireland the biomass plant in mayo just recently got the go ahead from the council (but will probably be appealed shortly):

http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mcc4/PlanningViewer/displayafile.asp?filenum=10997&la=1

I've done a lot of reading up on the subject of shale gas exploration and I still believe that in our current energy and economic situation it is by far the best solution, both environmentally and economically. The following should be taken into account:
- Aquifer pollution is extremely unlikely. Firstly because hydraulic fracturing is carried out at a depth of 1 mile (approx) below the aquifer, secondly because any harmful materials are used in minute quantities.
Put in perspective, water contamination from agricultural runoff poses a massively greater risk to water quality and human health.

- Although it may seem that Biomass is a good, reliable energy source for this country it has some severe drawbacks. Firstly, it has been the cause of increasing food prices worldwide as it reduces the amount of land available for food crop production. Secondly, it is simply not viable without subsidy.
In the current economic climate, is it really the best idea to fund an inefficient source of energy while our health and education system are cash-strapped!?

And before you ask... I am in no way affiliated with the shale gas industry!!

getz · 13-06-2011 9:39am

is it good or bad,i do not know,but what i can tell you is that they had to stop drilling just off the coast near me because it was believed to be the cause of two local earthquakes last month.

Oldtree · 15-06-2011 6:05pm

In my limited study i think that one of the problems is that the fracking fluid comes back up the bore hole thus polluting the aquifer. I would prefer if the timber in this country was sent to a biomass plant than to a mdf factory in cork. I too dont think that importing the fuel will give us a sustainable future. I would also prefer if subsidies were sent in the wood direction to get the business started properly rather than towards tidal or wind.

nedzer2011 · 16-06-2011 9:40am

Oldtree wrote: »

In my limited study i think that one of the problems is that the fracking fluid comes back up the bore hole thus polluting the aquifer.

It has been a problem in the earlier less regulated days of fracking that leakage of the fluid may have occurred (although not to a harmful level) but modern practices are designed towards minimising and eliminating this risk. Say fracking does take place on these shores, the regulation and monitoring regime would be as intense as we have seen.... the EPA would be all over it!!

At the end of the day, if it were found that some pollution had occurred I would be all for closing down drilling operations but becuase of regulation and scrutiny, I really don't think it's going to be an issue!

Oldtree · 16-06-2011 2:33pm

Regulation and scrutiny, when it comes to the environment, is in my experience sorely lacking in Ireland. The quarry issue is a big one, water being another.

Most recently the review into a number of councils and their planning issues ordered by ex minister gormley has been downgraded to an internal review by the new minister hogan. see this interesting article from the villager:

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2011/06/826/

Serious EU fines are waiting in the wings for us. Why do we even need to be told by the eu courts that we need to clean up our act, beggers belief really.

So much for progress......

nedzer2011 · 17-06-2011 12:36pm

Oldtree wrote: »

Regulation and scrutiny, when it comes to the environment, is in my experience sorely lacking in Ireland. The quarry issue is a big one, water being another.

Most recently the review into a number of councils and their planning issues ordered by ex minister gormley has been downgraded to an internal review by the new minister hogan. see this interesting article from the villager:

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2011/06/826/

Serious EU fines are waiting in the wings for us. Why do we even need to be told by the eu courts that we need to clean up our act, beggers belief really.

So much for progress......

Are you not veering a small bit off topic?

I can't say that I am overly experienced with regulation practices for conventional projects in Ireland but is it not reasonable to say that the media/public scrutiny that will be brought about by any SG drilling will basically force the regulator into action??

Oldtree · 18-06-2011 2:31pm

You brought up regulation and scrutiny!
"Force the regulator" how lovely - the innocence of it. We have many fines coming down the tracks from the EU due to lack of reglatory oversight and input, quarries, water, bogs, etc. I have no faith that we can rely on a regulator here, (way off topic now) look at the banks..............:D

There has been much media scrutiny of the above to no avail.

Best to get it all sorted out at the planning stage and ensure no more enviromental calamaties.

nedzer2011 · 20-06-2011 10:55am

Oldtree wrote: »

You brought up regulation and scrutiny!
"Force the regulator" how lovely - the innocence of it. We have many fines coming down the tracks from the EU due to lack of reglatory oversight and input, quarries, water, bogs, etc. I have no faith that we can rely on a regulator here, (way off topic now) look at the banks..............:D

There has been much media scrutiny of the above to no avail.

Best to get it all sorted out at the planning stage and ensure no more enviromental calamaties.

In fairness, I can't argue (yet) about the state of regulation in Ireland as I have little experience of working with them.

The best point I can settle on is that it should be realised by people that aquifer pollution caused in the past has been the exception rather than the rule and has been caused by shoddy working practices and lack of knowledge of the regulator.

As with all types of work, experience has inevitably brought improvement both in standard of work and in regulation. Therefore isn't it fair to say that referring to occurrences during the earlier drilling operations does not necessarily make a valid argument?

Oldtree · 20-06-2011 1:29pm

I would not agree that pollution is the exception rather than the rule in the past, and fairness does not come into it with a commercial operation. I can give you many specific examples of how the planning authorities and the developers have circumvented inadequate laws.

Currently the planning laws are still under review, so I await the new laws with baited breath.

I don't think that you can rely on espoused future laws to go ahead with potentially detrimental developments now, (well unproven not to be detrimental).

nedzer2011 · 20-06-2011 3:16pm

Oldtree wrote: »

..... fairness does not come into it with a commercial operation....

Just a turn of phrase!!!

But really, how can you confidently say that fracking operations cause aquifer pollution without exception when several unbiased reports suggest otherwise?

A question....
Say in an ideal world, there was a thorough regulation process in place and say that we could be certain that if any discrepancies were to occur there would be severe consequences for the private oil&gas companies, would you accept shale gas exploration taking place on these shores?

Sorry if I'm making this seem personal, just curious to see what attitudes would be like given this hypothetical situation.

Oldtree · 21-06-2011 5:06pm

Several unbiast reports say they do, so I would err on the side of caution based on past experience and await to be convinced.

In an ideal world I would not have such a jaundiced view of how these companies hold our environment in such contempt, along with the authorities.

Who will benifit from these developments? If like the corrib field not us!

I firmly believe in the right development in the right place, with serious consideration given to finite resources such as our landscape and green and clean appeal. I am not against any development persay but I am of the firm belief that tourism has gone undervalued over the last number of years due to our successful economy. but now we are going to have to rely on it for the future as one of our recovery projects. There are many hundreds of thousands of existing jobs in this industry and many more to come.

nedzer2011 · 22-06-2011 9:58am

Oldtree wrote: »

I firmly believe in the right development in the right place, with serious consideration given to finite resources such as our landscape and green and clean appeal. I am not against any development persay but I am of the firm belief that tourism has gone undervalued over the last number of years due to our successful economy. but now we are going to have to rely on it for the future as one of our recovery projects. There are many hundreds of thousands of existing jobs in this industry and many more to come.

Great point and sorry to jump down your throat.

I suppose the only thing that has got me a bit annoyed is that people automatically assume the very worst when they hear the term 'shale gas' and rely on hearsay as well as this 'Gasland' film (which I still maintain is 50-60% rubbish) when coming to their conclusion on the issue.

Hopefully future debates will be balanced and based on real evidence with decisions made which best benefit the country environmentally, economically and socially.

Oldtree · 22-06-2011 5:38pm

No sorry needed in a lively debate. I have learned something from you. The full facts are always difficult to find out in any issue, the best we can hope for is to continue to educate ourselves as best we can to inform our opinions to protect ourselves. There is no right or wrong.

easychair · 22-06-2011 7:41pm

There may be no right or wrong, but we Ireland has to make a decision, on the basis of the facts, and not on the basis of emotive biased television documentaries. Also, we must remember, that Ireland as a bankrupt and broke country, has little room to snub its nose at a project to bring wealth to Ireland, and to try to help ensure its access to cheap and reliable power, and to shore up its energy security.

tuppence · 23-06-2011 10:38am

Great debate. There are multiple reasons why I would hesitate bringing in the procedure of fracking. One of them is that I am living in the epicentre of it in Leitrim. :eek:
Seriously tho I dont think we are in the right place to make a call on an unproven procedure that could be devastating to our health and farming. We shouldnt be forced to make a choice because of a recesson that many would say is not of our making. Theres minimal long term jobs and there would be more sustainable ones in our food industry, renewal energy, not to mention our forgotton tourist industry. Each of these as 'products' could be damaged potentially irreparably to our international markets if this procedure were to go wrong . I wonder is anyone doing a cost benefit risk analysis on this. All of these I am sure reckon in our 'recovery plan'

Do we trust regulators? Even if the so called Irish Ones are better than American, thats really no comparison because the American system has been non existent sadly for alot of Americas.

Would Irish regulators do the job --finincial regulators were there only in name and swayed by politicians. And please can anyone enlighten me but is the Environemental Protection Agency immune to the Freedom of Information Act? If they are that would be disconcerting too. Expecting Irish regulators to be up to speed with such new technology is going to be challenging...And if they get it wrong is it not closing the door after the horse has bolted?

No, I would call for a suspension of any exploration until a government review is put in place. Theres stats steadily been built up with the places that it already is. And I believe the EPA in America have an independent study, results due in 2012/2013.
I would'nt be overly bothered bout reviewing the film which as become a bit of a public relations football. I would have thought tbh that these exploration firms would naturally be scared as hell of it not surprisingly as it as been a great vehicle to undermine what appears to be a flawed procedure and brought this evidence to a large international audience. (including the Irish Dail) Its in the private companies interests to discredit the film, and film is an art form so its always going to have its own kind of licence. Btw it appears that every challenge that the companies have produced about the film has been rebuffed. But I am sure that it will go on and on. I see the film as a springboard to go on to learn more about the issue.
I do however still feel that if France and states of Amerca have banned it and theres a halt becuse of a earthquake in Blackpool linked to the procedure that its time the government stood up to the plate and halted it and called for a review.

In the same vein apparently Mr John perry (TD) promised to be at the film tonight in Ballymote as its doing a tour in the region. Ive been to it (not connected to distributing it or anything!) and woudl recommend even for the debate afterwards which I thought was worthwhile as very informative.

Oldtree · 23-06-2011 11:36am

easychair wrote: »

There may be no right or wrong, but we Ireland has to make a decision, on the basis of the facts, and not on the basis of emotive biased television documentaries. Also, we must remember, that Ireland as a bankrupt and broke country, has little room to snub its nose at a project to bring wealth to Ireland, and to try to help ensure its access to cheap and reliable power, and to shore up its energy security.

The facts available are both positive and negative at the moment, so is it not prudent to wait for more information before we head headlong down another avenue?

Bring wealth to this impoverished country like the corrib field will, more likely line the pockets of shareholders somewhere else!

I'm all for cheap and reliable and sustainable power, but we seem to go usually too late for the wrong ones on a continuous basis driven by a corporate subsidised adgenda.

nedzer2011 · 23-06-2011 5:11pm

Oldtree wrote: »

Bring wealth to this impoverished country like the corrib field will, more likely line the pockets of shareholders somewhere else!

True to a certain extent but you miss an important point. This type of power generation does not require government subsidy in order to be feasible so while direct revenue generation may not be huge, it may reduce a financial burden on the country.

And again, while the country's finances are undoubtedly important, energy security should be the greatest motivation for choosing a source of energy.

Oldtree wrote: »

I'm all for cheap and reliable and sustainable power, but we seem to go usually too late for the wrong ones on a continuous basis driven by a corporate subsidised adgenda.

What do you see as the 'wrong ones' and what would you suggest as the alternatives?

Our modern renewable energy sources, such as wind, biomass, tidal etc. show promise but are still a long way off from being financially feasible. Instead of ploughing our money into subsidising them, why not instead invest heavily (with the savings gained from SG production) in research to improve, develop and optimise them. It may take a few years but wouldn't it be great to have energy which is both environmentally and economically sound?
Just a thought.

Oldtree · 24-06-2011 2:25pm

In an ideal world it would be great, but we do not live there. However if I was convinced of the environmental impacts and would be all for it, provided that it was not another giveaway or white elephant.

An example of the wrong ones is onshore wind generated power, once I discovered that it was subsidised and the types of backup systems it requires, such as pumped hydro storage.

Energy security is important, but we are a tiny island in the scheme of things. The UK is going to build 8 more nuclear plants, we have/will have interconnectors, and the big push behind the windymills at the moment is to export renewable supply to the UK and further afield. We do not even have an appropiate infastructure to deal with the thousands of windmills necessary to deliver this new corporate dream, let alone the concept of the long term damage to our landscape. Do you think tourists want to come and see a landscape full of huge turbines?

Shale Gas - Mod note post#117

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