Swords Club League suspended

Vizzy · 30-06-2012 2:17pm

Lads there are legal procedures/regulations to be followed to close roads
If you bear with me I will try to outline the legal provisions that are used(BTW I am not a solicitor but I have some involvement in the field).I will use the National Championships last weekend as my example cos all the vagaries of the law are/were used.

To formally close the road,Notice is required in a local paper to state that you intend to close the road(s).You need to give time for objections etc ,then publish another notice to say that you have decided to close the road.
This whole process is done by the local authority and takes about a month to complete.This was what was done to close the roads for the TT and the closing of centre of the town of Clonmel for the Nat Champs.

The "rolling closure" that was used for the rest of the Nat Champs(i.e outside the centre of Clonmel) is tecnically an emergency road closure which is done under the auspices of an Garda Siochana.
This is the procedure that we are all familiar with for club races etc.
Now to the matter at hand;
From reading the thread and Beasty's initial post it would appear that a marshall was out of line and acting as if he had power to close the road-he/she has no such legal power but under most circumstances the Gardai "allow" you to excercise a sort of power to ask motorists to obey your request to stop at a junction etc.
Bottom line here lads is we are relying on the good will of the Gardai to "allow" us to marshall races.Key to it all is to make sure the Gardai are in the loop at all times
Maybe the marshall was acting the pr**k or maybe he just met an over zealous Garda but strictly speaking the Garda was correct in that unless the correct procedures were followed,then the racing is illegal.

Lumen · 30-06-2012 2:26pm

@Vizzy, which law says that racing bicycles on open roads is illegal?

Hungrycol · 30-06-2012 3:01pm

If the Garda is correct in his version of events, as we assume he is, then the Marshall was incorrect to say the road was closed. The road is never closed in a league race. Never was. So road closure protocol does not apply.

Actual Paramedic · 30-06-2012 3:12pm

RobFowl wrote: »

The commmittee are an experienced and intelligent group. They are acting in the best interests of the club and cycling and I for one support them 100%.

We elected the committee and let them act in our interests as they always have. Discussing the finer aspects of the case here may not be right, a general discussion on club leagues on public roads is grand. You never know who is watching this.

Beasty · 30-06-2012 3:15pm

Lumen wrote: »

I absolutely do not accept this. You seem to be taking the allegations stated in the complaint as truth, whereas it's just one person's account.

We only have the guard's version of events. I don't know who the marshall in question was (and have no particular desire to know), but I would accept the guard's version of events in the absence of any contrary information/evidence. I would prefer to focus on what the law allows/requires if his version is accurate rather than ponder what may or may not have happened further

Lusk Doyle · 30-06-2012 3:19pm

Actual Paramedic wrote: »

You never know who is watching this.

Oh no!!! We had better be careful so!!!

Vizzy · 30-06-2012 3:23pm

Lumen,
If rhe correct procedures are not followed under section 74 of the Roads Act 1993,then permission cannot be given to hold a road race and by implication the race is illegal.
Again tecnically,the Gardai should/could arrive at the race and immediately prohibit it.
It doesn't happen though unless there are particular problems being caused.

Lumen · 30-06-2012 3:23pm

Beasty wrote: »

We only have the guard's version of events

Not on this thread we don't. We only have your interpretation of that version.

Beasty wrote: »

I would accept the guard's version of events in the absence of any contrary information/evidence

Of course you would.

Inquitus · 30-06-2012 3:26pm

It seems like perhaps some overzealous marshalling has been coupled with some overzealous policing.

Although marshalling is obviously fairly simple in concept, I had never marshalled prior to this season, I was just given a flag and a Hi-Vis jacket and sent to a corner. I think it would be a good idea to circulate an email with the do's and dont's of marshalling to all members prior to the race season so people know the limits etc. and we can avoid this sort of occurance.

Lumen · 30-06-2012 3:28pm

Vizzy wrote: »

Lumen,
If rhe correct procedures are not followed under section 74 of the Roads Act 1993,then permission cannot be given to hold a road race and by implication the race is illegal.
Again tecnically,the Gardai should/could arrive at the race and immediately prohibit it.
It doesn't happen though unless there are particular problems being caused.

Thanks. Here is that section:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/print.html#sec74

"In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals."

Lumen · 30-06-2012 3:37pm

1993 act (link above).

"(2) A person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race shall give at least one month's notice (or such other period of notice as may be prescribed by the Minister) in writing to the road authority and to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána within whose district the road race is to be held."

2012 Cycling Ireland regs

"The organiser will notify the police of the race at least one month in advance or in accordance with the appropriate legal requirements, and must ensure that Cycling Irelands Safety Code is adhered to"

doozerie · 30-06-2012 3:42pm

Inquitus wrote: »

I think it would be a good idea to circulate an email with the do's and dont's of marshalling to all members prior to the race season so people know the limits etc. and we can avoid this sort of occurance.

Here is a useful guide to marshaling that I've seen circulated this year and last year. It's quite comprehensive and obviously some work went into it, it would be worth making it more readily available if possible. In the circumstances it would also be worth emphasising in those guidelines that marshals actually have no authority so bear that in mind when deciding how to deal with a scenario where a motorists appears unwilling to stop.

Vizzy · 30-06-2012 3:48pm

^^^^^
This is where common sense comes in.
I would assume that the secretary of the cycle club/running club/rallying club etc would approach the Gardai and the Local Authority at the beginning of each year and say something on the lines of "we intend to run our bike league(rally etc) on Wednesday nights from 7 to 9 on the XXXX road during June do ye have a problem with that"

LA/Gardai " No problem here cos ye have always run a very safe event,but make sure everyone knows what they are at"

Club Secretary "Fair enough so,can I get that in writing,thanks"

Lumen · 30-06-2012 3:55pm

The guard states that racing on a public road is an offence. This is clearly not the case.

English Bob · 30-06-2012 5:37pm

Lads let's not become intimidated because of the complainants occupation. Would we all be so upset and react the same if this complaint came from a baker or an estate agent etc., this complaint was from a member of the public and whilst there should be a procedure in the club for dealing with these sorts of things I think there has been a bit of over reaction and it's time to put things in perspective.

Bunnyhopper · 30-06-2012 8:43pm

I know you don't want to get too caught up in the specifics of this particular complaint, but could someone who has seen this letter just clarify whether it's a personal communication from someone who happens to be a Garda (and presumably mentions that in the letter) or is an official communication of some sort, e.g., on headed Garda notepaper?

Dermot Illogical · 30-06-2012 9:14pm

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

I know you don't want to get too caught up in the specifics of this particular complaint, but could someone who has seen this letter just clarify whether it's a personal communication from someone who happens to be a Garda (and presumably mentions that in the letter) or is an official communication of some sort, e.g., on headed Garda notepaper?

It's an email. The club circulated the text of the complaint but removed identifying information.

fixie fox · 30-06-2012 9:26pm

doozerie wrote: »

Beasty wrote:

Additional points were raised that the guard believed that illegal road closures had taken place;

I'd be very interested to know what the garda in question, or the gardai generally in fact, consider a "road closure". In the league I participate in we stop traffic only for as long at is takes the riders to clear a junction (or severe bend where necessary), and I would assume it's the very same for other leagues too. This means stopping traffic for probably no more than 1 or 2 minutes for each bunch, and typically the bunches are spaced a few minutes apart. That to me would not constitute a road closure as such, but if the gardai take a different view then it's hard to see how any race could be safely run (i.e. with marshals at danger points) on open roads without falling foul of the formal and tricky requirements that this garda seems to be saying are necessary. That wouldn't bode well, I think.

But, i presume, you have no legal right to stop traffic and therefore you are acting illegally. I also marshall from time to time. I do flag down traffic and politely ask motorists to wait, but I know I have no right to prevent them from proceeding. 'traffic management' should always occur with tha Gardai at least advised of it - it's a minimum courtesy if nothing else.

Eamonnator · 30-06-2012 10:32pm

Lumen wrote: »

The guard states that racing on a public road is an offence. This is clearly not the case.

I agree.
However, Most racing cyclists regularly commit offences against the Road Traffic Acts, eg. crossing continuous white lines, not stopping at Stop signs,
cycling five and sometimes more abreast across the road, etc.. Furthermore team cars, motor cycle marshals, lead cars and other race vehicles commit similar offences.
If the letter of the law was obeyed in every road race, could racing continue
in Ireland?

Mycroft H · 01-07-2012 12:24am

Eamonnator wrote: »

I agree.
However, Most racing cyclists regularly commit offences against the Road Traffic Acts, eg. crossing continuous white lines, not stopping at Stop signs,
cycling five and sometimes more abreast across the road, etc.. Furthermore team cars, motor cycle marshals, lead cars and other race vehicles commit similar offences.
If the letter of the law was obeyed in every road race, could racing continue
in Ireland?

I can't remember the last time I saw a club race with riders 5 abreast. 5 abreast would push you into the oncoming lane wouldn't it (thinking average width road here)?

Eamonnator · 01-07-2012 8:19am

BX 19 wrote: »

I can't remember the last time I saw a club race with riders 5 abreast. 5 abreast would push you into the oncoming lane wouldn't it (thinking average width road here)?

I Wasn't just talking about club races.
By some freak accident, earlier in the year, I found myself in a bunch gallop,
We were certainly five abreast, and taking up the entire width of the road.

Lumen · 01-07-2012 8:50am

This is great stuff lads, keep it up.

Perhaps we could turn this thread into an running testimony of all the times racing cyclists have broken the ROTR?

It'll make this random garda's job that bit easier.

trad · 01-07-2012 9:27am

I've just come across this thread and I'd like to throw my tuppence worth into the discussion.

I speak as an ex Garda traffic motorcyclist, a former FIC Commissaire and way back in the year dot, a racing cyclist.

From reading this thread it is my assumption that the committee took the decision to suspend the league on the basis of an email sent by an off duty Garda from his personal email account.

I do not know the individual concerned. I have seen the conduct of road races in my time and doubt it has changed greatly since.

I think this might be the piece of legislation he may be referring to
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a47

Pedal Cyclists

47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

(2) Pedal cyclists on a roadway shall cycle in single file when overtaking other traffic.
Cycle racing has been taking place on public roads in Ireland for as long as more than 1 person had a bike. I escorted several Rás's around the country and while there were no formal road closures in place we implemented a "rolling road closure" which had no legal status but it conducted the race in a safe fashion which some riders took advantage of. Some formal road closures were in place for the final stage circuit.

To the more salient point. The " correspondence" recieved by the club is not an official correspondence. It is the opinion of one member of the force conveyed by email, not an official correspendence or legal document.

I would suggest that the commitee make contact with the local Traffic unit, looking for a meeting with an Inspector or Superintendent from that department. Inform them of the correspondence, tell them what action you have taken or are going to put in place to ensre the safe passage of all and seek their guidance for the races to continue. If the marshall was out of line, iinform them of the training you have put in place for marshalls, emphasing that safety was the marshall primary concern.

If at this stage the offended off duty Garda gets in contact again you can refer him or her to the Officer you are in contact with.

Eamonnator · 01-07-2012 1:49pm

Lumen wrote: »

This is great stuff lads, keep it up.

Perhaps we could turn this thread into an running testimony of all the times racing cyclists have broken the ROTR?

It'll make this random garda's job that bit easier.

You made a point, I countered it, what did you expect?

Lumen · 01-07-2012 2:02pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

You made a point, I countered it, what did you expect?

My point was simply that racing on open roads is not itself illegal.

I don't remember stating that cyclists never break the ROTR whilst racing. It certainly isn't a requirement of racing.

Eamonnator · 01-07-2012 3:57pm

Lumen wrote: »

My point was simply that racing on open roads is not itself illegal.

I don't remember stating that cyclists never break the ROTR whilst racing. It certainly isn't a requirement of racing.

Equally, I don't remember, stating, that cyclists always break the ROTR whilst racing.

Lusk Doyle · 01-07-2012 4:05pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

Lumen wrote: »

My point was simply that racing on open roads is not itself illegal.

I don't remember stating that cyclists never break the ROTR whilst racing. It certainly isn't a requirement of racing.

Equally, I don't remember, stating, that cyclists always break the ROTR whilst racing.

Oh FFS lads, give it over. Our league suspension is the issue here not semantics.

fat bloke · 01-07-2012 4:48pm

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Oh FFS lads, give it over. Our league suspension is the issue here not semantics.

Semantics is the lifeblood of boards:rolleyes:

Hope this business doesn't affect other leagues.

greenmat · 01-07-2012 5:22pm

trad wrote: »

I've just come across this thread and I'd like to throw my tuppence worth into the discussion.

I speak as an ex Garda traffic motorcyclist, a former FIC Commissaire and way back in the year dot, a racing cyclist.

From reading this thread it is my assumption that the committee took the decision to suspend the league on the basis of an email sent by an off duty Garda from his personal email account.

I do not know the individual concerned. I have seen the conduct of road races in my time and doubt it has changed greatly since.

I think this might be the piece of legislation he may be referring to
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a47

Pedal Cyclists

47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

(2) Pedal cyclists on a roadway shall cycle in single file when overtaking other traffic.
Cycle racing has been taking place on public roads in Ireland for as long as more than 1 person had a bike. I escorted several Rás's around the country and while there were no formal road closures in place we implemented a "rolling road closure" which had no legal status but it conducted the race in a safe fashion which some riders took advantage of. Some formal road closures were in place for the final stage circuit.

To the more salient point. The " correspondence" recieved by the club is not an official correspondence. It is the opinion of one member of the force conveyed by email, not an official correspendence or legal document.

I would suggest that the commitee make contact with the local Traffic unit, looking for a meeting with an Inspector or Superintendent from that department. Inform them of the correspondence, tell them what action you have taken or are going to put in place to ensre the safe passage of all and seek their guidance for the races to continue. If the marshall was out of line, iinform them of the training you have put in place for marshalls, emphasing that safety was the marshall primary concern.

If at this stage the offended off duty Garda gets in contact again you can refer him or her to the Officer you are have been in contact with.

A brillant post.

robs1 · 02-07-2012 9:20pm

MOD VOICE- The OP and the club have left the name of the Garda involved out of there statement, at this point in time it is not relevant to the discussion and I am advising posters that attempts to identify said member of AGS will be dealt with in the same manner as someone trying to identify an anonymous poster.

The Garda in question identified himself to the club, the club in turn removed his name from discussions with their members, we will be showing the Garda in question the same level of respect regardless of peoples opinion on the matter until such time as his identity comes into the public domain from another source

Hungrycol · 04-07-2012 9:06am

Anyone going for a spin this evening in lieu of racing? Could do a jolly around the circuit (although I don't know the route that well :rolleyes:) if the rain holds off.

Lusk Doyle · 04-07-2012 10:07am

Hungrycol wrote: »

Anyone going for a spin this evening in lieu of racing? Could do a jolly around the circuit (although I don't know the route that well :rolleyes:) if the rain holds off.

If I get my bike back from the bike shop today then I'll be going out for a blast session. I'd be aiming for hitting the start point of the course for 6:30 - 6:45. I'll post later if I have the bike back and am going.

Beasty · 04-07-2012 10:39am

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

If I get my bike back from the bike shop today then I'll be going out for a blast session. I'd be aiming for hitting the start point of the course for 6:30 - 6:45. I'll post later if I have the bike back and am going.

You do have accreditation for Sundrive remember;) (and I'll put a "special" word in for you with the handicappers if you want

)

Lusk Doyle · 04-07-2012 10:59am

Beasty wrote: »

You do have accreditation for Sundrive remember;) (and I'll put a "special" word in for you with the handicappers if you want )

Yeah - I had forgotten about that!

robs1 · 04-07-2012 1:27pm

robs1 wrote: »

MOD VOICE- The OP and the club have left the name of the Garda involved out of there statement, at this point in time it is not relevant to the discussion and I am advising posters that attempts to identify said member of AGS will be dealt with in the same manner as someone trying to identify an anonymous poster.

The Garda in question identified himself to the club, the club in turn removed his name from discussions with their members, we will be showing the Garda in question the same level of respect regardless of peoples opinion on the matter until such time as his identity comes into the public domain from another source

apologies on that post in no way was i trying to single out any member of the guards. i was trying to make the point that someone's personal option might not be backed up by the guards themselves.

dooverylittle · 09-07-2012 12:13am

Any update? I am really missing the league.

Beasty · 09-07-2012 7:56am

dooverylittle wrote: »

Any update? I am really missing the league.

No update, other than to say the Club is working with the Guards towards a solution which will allow racing to recommence. I don't anticipate it will be this week though (and that's not saying it will be next week either!)

dooverylittle · 09-07-2012 9:55am

ahh, cold turkey.

leeroybrown · 09-07-2012 10:09am

In the absence of an exact copy of the letter (minus any personal details) what's the point of this thread. A few posters have made good suggestions as to how the club should proceed but otherwise there's no basis for any of it other than incomplete information and a slightly misleading opening post.

Lusk Doyle · 09-07-2012 11:48am

leeroybrown wrote: »

In the absence of an exact copy of the letter (minus any personal details) what's the point of this thread. A few posters have made good suggestions as to how the club should proceed but otherwise there's no basis for any of it other than incomplete information and a slightly misleading opening post.

Care to explain how/why you have come to that conclusion? If you don't like it then don't contribute to or read the thread.

Hungrycol · 09-07-2012 12:16pm

I might go out again for a spin on Wed if it's not raining* and do a few laps of the planned Ardcath circuit (if I can remember the turns!). I did Grallagh last Wednesday on me tobler but met Adam on the second lap and we hammered it around for one lap together then headed home.

I'll probably decide on Wed see what the weather is like if I'm going to head out or not if anyone wants to join in. Pace I would like to hit is about a SCC league Group 3ish (or slow Group 4).

*I am made of sugar

dooverylittle · 09-07-2012 12:20pm

Great Idea lets restart the league without marshals!

Hungrycol · 09-07-2012 12:29pm

dooverylittle wrote: »

Great Idea lets restart the league without marshals!

No No No. This is not what I mean. I'm just going for a spin to stretch the legs, no racing whatsoever. A bit like those Tuesday spins at the beginning of the league a few months ago without it being arranged by SCC.

Lusk Doyle · 09-07-2012 12:35pm

Hungrycol wrote: »

dooverylittle wrote: »

Great Idea lets restart the league without marshals!

No No No. This is not what I mean. I'm just going for a spin to stretch the legs, no racing whatsoever. A bit like those Tuesday spins at the beginning of the league a few months ago without it being arranged by SCC.

Disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer!

Kav0777 · 09-07-2012 12:36pm

Hungrycol wrote: »

No No No. This is not what I mean. I'm just going for a spin to stretch the legs, no racing whatsoever. A bit like those Tuesday spins at the beginning of the league a few months ago without it being arranged by SCC.

Gotcha...

not a race

... what'll the head start be for those who want to do this "spin" at a group 2 pace..

:P

English Bob · 12-07-2012 12:16pm

Any idea what's going on with this? Im sure Im not the only one who has to make special arrangements to get out to race on Weds eve. If this is to be the death of the Swordscc league then I will begin to find something else to do. Anyone know anymore as the club website has no further information since suspension was imposed.:(

RobFowl · 12-07-2012 12:23pm

English Bob wrote: »

Any idea what's going on with this? Im sure Im not the only one who has to make special arrangements to get out to race on Weds eve. If this is to be the death of the Swordscc league then I will begin to find something else to do. Anyone know anymore as the club website has no further information since suspension was imposed.:(

Work is going on in the background and will hopefully come to a resolution very soon. The club has specifically asked that details are not discussed openly on boards/twitter/facebook or similar as this may make things worse.

Hungrycol · 12-07-2012 12:54pm

English Bob wrote: »

Any idea what's going on with this? Im sure Im not the only one who has to make special arrangements to get out to race on Weds eve. If this is to be the death of the Swordscc league then I will begin to find something else to do. Anyone know anymore as the club website has no further information since suspension was imposed.:(

You shuda come out on our swim last night. Very enjoyable*.

*this is not true

Lusk Doyle · 12-07-2012 7:11pm

Hungrycol wrote: »

English Bob wrote: »

Any idea what's going on with this? Im sure Im not the only one who has to make special arrangements to get out to race on Weds eve. If this is to be the death of the Swordscc league then I will begin to find something else to do. Anyone know anymore as the club website has no further information since suspension was imposed.:(

You shuda come out on our swim last night. Very enjoyable*.

[SIZE="1"]*this is not true[/SIZE]

+1. My gear is still dripping!

manwithaplan · 12-07-2012 7:23pm

I was feeling very smug about my decision not to accompany you but now I am standing in my cleats looking out at the wind and rain.

Swords Club League suspended

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