Pull up/Chin ups Challenge 2012?

Inspector Coptoor · 27-01-2012 9:52pm

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

50kg weighted chin-up! Some way to go so.... Apparently your 1rep max chin-up should equal your 1rep max bench? The chin-up is the combination of bodyweight plus the weight on the dip belt. Anybody agree with this statement?

I wish my max bench was that high!!

Ive done BW @ 100kg + 27.5kg x 1.
And 25 BW pull ups @ 100 with a fair but of Kipping but they weren't quite full crossfit Kipping ones either.

Doing a few chins/pull ups every week.

Need to concentrate on chins for a while as they are well behind the pull ups

Turbo_diesel · 27-01-2012 10:18pm

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

I wish my max bench was that high!!

So do I!! It has to be all down to my sh1t technique

Hanley · 27-01-2012 10:43pm

ferike1 wrote: »

Tried turning out the rings today doing a static hold. Damn, its tough.

You'll learn it quick - its just got its such a weird position to stablise in.

Spunge · 30-01-2012 9:48am

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

50kg weighted chin-up! Some way to go so.... Apparently your 1rep max chin-up should equal your 1rep max bench? The chin-up is the combination of bodyweight plus the weight on the dip belt. Anybody agree with this statement?

that means i should be benching 97kg.
and that, sadly, is not even in the foreseeable future.

mushykeogh · 30-01-2012 12:39pm

5 X 5 @93kg this morning, just finished last bar of bournville there with a double espresso. Will try the same again next monday, hopefully @91 kg.

d'Oracle · 30-01-2012 1:01pm

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

50kg weighted chin-up! Some way to go so.... Apparently your 1rep max chin-up should equal your 1rep max bench? The chin-up is the combination of bodyweight plus the weight on the dip belt. Anybody agree with this statement?

No. For two reasons.

1) Because bodyweight bench, while not being a massive achievement in the long term, is a lot harder to achieve than one chin.

2) Because rules like that are arbitrary and silly, imo.
I know a guy who can do a +60kg Chin @100kg and cant bench 160. But I am not about to suggest that there is something wrong with his numbers.

TheZ · 30-01-2012 3:00pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

No. For two reasons.

1) Because bodyweight bench, while not being a massive achievement in the long term, is a lot harder to achieve than one chin.

2) Because rules like that are arbitrary and silly, imo.
I know a guy who can do a +60kg Chin @100kg and cant bench 160. But I am not about to suggest that there is something wrong with his numbers.

I think a chin up gives you a lever with your forearm against the elbow
so you can go heavier
bench being close to max for a weighted pull up is more realistic i would say

rubadub · 30-01-2012 3:26pm

I have seen on several sites
Bench 1.5x your body weight. Squat 2x your body weight. Deadlift 2.5x
as being good goals.

I have done a chin with 50% of my BW before. No way I could do it now since I am fatter so not only is a chin harder my 50% has gone up. No way I could bench 1.5x, esp. as I don't bench!

Turbo_diesel · 30-01-2012 9:24pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

No. For two reasons.

1) Because bodyweight bench, while not being a massive achievement in the long term, is a lot harder to achieve than one chin.

Would have to agree with you on this at least from the point of view that I have always found benching more difficult than weighted chins. Originally seen the statement on a article on T-nation about strength standards. Came from Dan John/Mike Boyle. It also mentions your Bench Press max should equal your Front squat max & power clean max.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/5_great_lessons

d'Oracle · 30-01-2012 11:35pm

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

Would have to agree with you on this at least from the point of view that I have always found benching more difficult than weighted chins. Originally seen the statement on a article on T-nation about strength standards. Came from Dan John/Mike Boyle. It also mentions your Bench Press max should equal your Front squat max & power clean max.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/5_great_lessons

I try pretty damn hard at power cleans and can't clean my bench. I'm probably atypical. Like a lone wolf, an outsider bound to live on the outskirts of standards.....

If you can't front squat?
I feel all self conscious now. Damn popular kids with their front squats. I can think of 4 guys off hand who don't fit that off the top of my head. At very different training levels.

Thing with standards and what Mike Boyles out put in general is they aren't the same thing.
Dan John is setting a standard there. He expects those ratios.
Its like a tool to assess where the guy is weak.

Boyle actually says "you can you just aren't trying hard enough". I'm assuming he means that you need to put more work into training your power clean if your Front squat and bench are x but your Clean is x-y.

This is grand, but Dan Johns athletes probably do a fair bit of Front Squatting, Benching and Cleans. He talks about these lifts a lot.

But if we take these things to heart we now have Bench = Chinup = Front Squat = Power Clean.
Screw that, its way too tight.
If you want to make a goal of these equations, its probably a decent goal or at least the John/Boyle thing is. Hell if you put 10kg on those three lifts, you're 10kg stronger in general.

I'm a while off 100kg for 7 on the bench though, so I wont be taking the Bench=Chins one anytime soon.

JJayoo · 31-01-2012 7:55pm

Got 5x5 with 15kg lastnight.

Naos · 31-01-2012 8:03pm

Done 2 x 8 then 1 x 5 & 1 x 3 today @ 85kg.

Will test my max on Thursday!

ferike1 · 01-02-2012 10:49am

Okay, so I bought a weighted vest and doing pullups/chins feels so different than using the belt with weights attached. 25kg in the vest feels so much heavier than 30kg with the belt.

Thud · 01-02-2012 2:18pm

Would have thought it would be the other way round.
Vest is more stable though, no plates swinging?

Hanley · 01-02-2012 2:22pm

Thud wrote: »

Would have thought it would be the other way round.
Vest is more stable though, no plates swinging?

Isolated force on the shoulder joint tho. Not too surprised it's harder.

PRobably better off with a belt.

Inspector Coptoor · 01-02-2012 2:27pm

Thud wrote: »

Would have thought it would be the other way round.
Vest is more stable though, no plates swinging?

M = F x r

Would have thought that the further the force was from the fulcrum, the easier it would be.

The Guvnor · 01-02-2012 2:59pm

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

50kg weighted chin-up! Some way to go so.... Apparently your 1rep max chin-up should equal your 1rep max bench? The chin-up is the combination of bodyweight plus the weight on the dip belt. Anybody agree with this statement?

I suppose this depends on your bodyweight and 1rm on bench.

My best 1rm at the time would mean hanging 242lbs off me as I tried to do a chin-up so doubt that would have happened.

Not sure if we ever really did weighted chins - I think in UCD it was not overly feasible.

The Guvnor · 01-02-2012 3:03pm

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

d'Oracle wrote: »

It also mentions your Bench Press max should equal your Front squat max & power clean max.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/5_great_lessons

No chance there on the clean front.

Once again it depends on the max on the bench. Front squat - possibly but not easily.

Thud · 01-02-2012 3:08pm

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

M = F x r

Would have thought that the further the force was from the fulcrum, the easier it would be.

i dunno, was just talking in terms of comfort, i find the plate swinging a bit distracting.

Would a fulcrum not be associated with a pivot action?

d'Oracle · 01-02-2012 3:15pm

Erm...
You need to pay better attention to your quoting.
I didn't post that.
You should read Dan Johns Article. Never Let Go is free for kindle at the moment.

Liam, A belt or vest will in no way affect the magnitude of the moment M.
As the change in implement position will occur about the same distance from the fulcrum which in the pullup is about the elbow.....if you really really simplify the movement. Which is also wrong.

The load is still Bodyweight + additional weight about the vertical axis.

Thud · 01-02-2012 3:19pm

Could you draw us a diagram?

Inspector Coptoor · 01-02-2012 3:23pm

Ah well, Physics was never my strong point.
Made sense in my head.

opinion guy · 01-02-2012 3:49pm

I'm jealous of all of you since my old shoulder injury means it feels like my shoulder joint is going to explosively separate if I even attempt any sort of pull up/chin up!

ferike1 · 01-02-2012 4:17pm

Hanley wrote: »

Isolated force on the shoulder joint tho. Not too surprised it's harder.

PRobably better off with a belt.

So far no real discomfort in the shoulders, then again its only been like a week and a half of training with it. Weighted pushups are interesting

TheZ · 01-02-2012 9:09pm

generally do 3 x 5 with 35kg at 75kg bw

have done 45kg for one before but always end up tweaking my neck straining to get to bar - goal was to get to 50kg for reps but backed off a few times

no way would bench come close to that but can match weighted dips to weighted chins

Hanley · 01-02-2012 9:20pm

TheZ wrote: »

generally do 3 x 5 with 35kg at 75kg bw

have done 45kg for one before but always end up tweaking my neck straining to get to bar - goal was to get to 50kg for reps but backed off a few times

no way would bench come close to that but can match weighted dips to weighted chins

Yeah actually I'd be similar. Ring dipped 25kg 3x5 last week ad would chin around the same right now I reckon.

Ice87 · 02-02-2012 12:54am

17 Pull ups. Don't really bother with chins.

Try to up it by one a week.

opinion guy · 02-02-2012 1:05am

I always think this guy has the best work out routine I've ever seen....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm91hh9SqXs

....althou the punishment of failure is a bit harse methinks!!!

Mellor · 02-02-2012 1:10am

d'Oracle wrote: »

Liam, A belt or vest will in no way affect the magnitude of the moment M.
As the change in implement position will occur about the same distance from the fulcrum which in the pullup is about the elbow.....if you really really simplify the movement. Which is also wrong.

The load is still Bodyweight + additional weight about the vertical axis.

That's what I was thinking. The load is still in the same line/plane through the body.

But how the body reacts to the load might differ. Dunno, never used a vest. Rarely a belt.

Also, Bench = Front Squat = Power Clean, to who ever posted it.
I'd imagine for front squat would be higher than bench. As long as people did both, and didn't spend spend massive amount of time on one or he other.
Edit: Ah, I read it now and I was taking it up wrong. It says you shoud be able to clean and front squat your bench, if you can't your not trying hard enough. I guess its a response to people who thain lefts and want to be athletes. It goes on to say, that its ok if bench is behind the other too.

For me Front Squat > Bench > Clean
But thats down to not cleaning properly

The Guvnor · 02-02-2012 2:39am

^ Well I did bench 501lbs at my best.

I did do some front squatting but given my best squat was in the order of 520lb for 3 reps I can say that I definitely front squatted with 400lbs but cannot remember if I ever got to 440 - not sure but 100% nothing over 440lbs.

As for my cleans - the gym did not approve and when rowing I might have done 231 or so but that was it.

So as you can see I don't share his view.

A 500lb clean would be kind of decent!:D

Mellor · 02-02-2012 2:54am

But Dan john was talking specifically in relation to his athletes. Training in this like american football.
You obviously had a bench press bias in your training anyway. And you didn't train cleans, so it wouldn't apply to you.

He wants his guys to be good enough at cleans so that they can clean their bench weight.
This is very different to saying if you can clean it, you can bench it.

jugger0 · 02-02-2012 6:04am

The Guvnor wrote: »

^ Well I did bench 501lbs at my best.

Fack had no idea rowers were that strong.

Mellor · 02-02-2012 6:44am

jugger0 wrote: »

Fack had no idea rowers were that strong.

Pfft, everyone look stronger in pounds

The Guvnor · 02-02-2012 9:06am

Damn am I that transparent!:D I bench 8016 ounces - well I did just the once mind.

I would have thought though that a lot of American Football players would have poor cleans in relation to their benching.

The Guvnor · 02-02-2012 9:08am

Jugger - rowers are not that strong. I was a good 60-70lbs heavier at this stage and doing no cardio when I did that max.

I think the best I ever got to whilst rowing was probably 325-350 or so.

Hanley · 02-02-2012 9:19am

Right now I'd probably bench 130, clean 130 and front squat 150ish, so I guess I'm "balanced".

My bench has been fairly ignored for the past 12 months, as has my front squat.

A year ago it'd have been something like bench 130x5, clean 125ish, front squat 160ish.

Moral of the story - balance is achieved in weakness.

Hanley · 02-02-2012 9:20am

And it's funny - at that time my chin x3 PR was about 10kg heavier than my bench x3 Pr.

d'Oracle · 02-02-2012 11:29am

Mellor wrote: »

Edit: Ah, I read it now and I was taking it up wrong. It says you shoud be able to clean and front squat your bench, if you can't your not trying hard enough. I guess its a response to people who thain lefts and want to be athletes. It goes on to say, that its ok if bench is behind the other too.

For me Front Squat > Bench > Clean
But thats down to not cleaning properly

Its really just Mike Boyle either misrepresenting the content of another article in order to make a big HOME RUN of a sweeping statement or just misinterpreting it.

They are what Dan John said in an article he expects from his athletes.

I assume he would use it as a tool to judge where the work needs to go.
If you FS 220lb and Power clean 220, but Bench 250lb then the bench is not gonna be the priority in training for the next while.

nice_guy80 · 03-02-2012 4:53pm

good to read the progress
keep it going

as for me, 9 bodyweight chin ups max
7 chin ups + 5kg.

I'm doing chin ups because the pull ups place a bit too much stress on the shoulder

nice_guy80 · 16-02-2012 2:19am

how is this going for everyone??

for me its time to invest in a pull up bar for home and hit out as many negatives as I can 2/3 times a day

ray jay · 16-02-2012 1:34pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

how is this going for everyone??

for me its time to invest in a pull up bar for home and hit out as many negatives as I can 2/3 times a day

Lidl were selling a pull up bar similar to this for about €18 from Monday this week, you may still be able to find one.

nice_guy80 · 16-02-2012 3:38pm

ray jay wrote: »

Lidl were selling a pull up bar similar to this for about €18 from Monday this week, you may still be able to find one.

done.

Inspector Coptoor · 16-02-2012 10:06pm

Did a chin up with a 24kg KB hanging off a dipping belt this evening.
Will Try to increase it next week.

Dermighty · 16-02-2012 10:09pm

I can do 3 wide grip pull-ups!

Michael 09 · 17-02-2012 12:39pm

I injured myself on a max test wide grip pulls up which has left me out of the gym for 3 weeks. So frustrating

nice_guy80 · 17-02-2012 2:40pm

Dermighty wrote: »

I can do 3 wide grip pull-ups!

fair play.
now get it up to 5!!!

nice_guy80 · 17-02-2012 2:41pm

Michael 09 wrote: »

I injured myself on a max test wide grip pulls up which has left me out of the gym for 3 weeks. So frustrating

not good.
what muscle? or a joint?

Cravez · 17-02-2012 2:53pm

Might consider this if not now but for later in the year. Might give maxes a try this evening maybe

Iv been about 4 months back training since my semi-serious shoulder Injury, was out of action for 14 Months or so. (lost alot of weight and initial strength)

However since been backing training though Iv repped out 11 x BW reps for Ring Muscleups

Haven't tried Maxes really on Pullups or Chins yet though. I imagine not as good as they used to be

Michael 09 · 20-02-2012 10:47am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

not good.
what muscle? or a joint?

Damaged my upper trap apparently so that lead to a very stiff neck for a while.

rubadub · 20-02-2012 2:17pm

I think doing heavy weighted ring dips messed up my shoulder over a year ago. I am getting over it now, still feels ropey at times yet my dumbbell overhead presses are in line with what I could do before. My dips & pullups are down, but I am fatter now

I think people might not be as cautious when going for maxes on BW exercises. I always feel inherently safer doing them but maybe I am overconfident, not judging that it is still likely to injure yourself as easily.

It would be like parents worried about kids lifting weights but probably not as concerned about gymnastic BW strength training.

I warm up well now but do not do any heavy work under 5 reps.

Pull up/Chin ups Challenge 2012?

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