DCM Class of 2011- the continuing challenge

ecoli · 09-11-2011 11:44am

barking1503 wrote: »

Thanks a mill e coli. I can definately hold a conversation training running, I could go forever at my DCM training pace which was 11 min miles. Prior to that I was prob a 10 min miler and for a 10m race used to run between 9-9.30 (but wouldn't be chatting at this pace for me:(). when I started running 2 yrs ago I got as far as 7 min miles over a 3 mile course but that is a distant memory to me now!!!
Injury aside, I really enjoyed the slow pace of the DCM training - and had no time expectations for the race. I was in a brill group of about 13 all at similar level.
My problem now is that I feel I have gotten slower. If the training run pace upped even a bit I felt it straight away and found it tough enough. Hopefully this thread and your great advice will help to see if I can get out of my current 11mm rut and get some kind of speed up (though sometimes wonder if I have it in me at all).

This is one of the most common mistakes to make in running. often people become obsessed with their easy running pace and think this is the only indication of fitness and as such they are happy when they are quicker than normal. Your pace variation between training for the different distances means that you may have been pushing it little too hard on your runs ( a recipe for injury)
You easy pace when training from 5k - marathon should be the same. As you get fitter this time will come down naturally but dont push it. There is a good saying amongst runners which says "hard days hard easy days easy" as such save you faster running for the days of sessions the rest should be aimed towards recovery while also developing aerobic base. Simply put if you are running your easy days too hard you are not getting a chance to recover and the recovery period is actually where you make your gains believe it or not.

Your hard days are to break the body down and stress it while recovery days are when they body builds back up stronger making it able to cope better to the next stress. This principle is the basis of most forms of conditioning training (ie endurance sports)

meathcountysec · 09-11-2011 1:21pm

Jimh wrote: »

No - He is from Athboy and Fr Murphy's AC - said this was the last one he was running but I think he may change his mind now:)

He's a clubmate of mine. He was/is delighted with his performance and may have snatched an age-group placing in the National Marathon Champs to boot.

jamesmurphy1 · 09-11-2011 2:09pm

ecoli wrote: »

Age is not a limiting factor especially to people coming to the sport late. It is true that your peak age in terms of top level running (in a well trained athlete) is roughly 28 and after this it is your Vo2 Max* which begins to degenerate however this has very little influence on your aerobic base and as such people who come to the sport late can improve for years after this point by aiming their training around this.

*Vo2 max is basically the amount of oxygen your blood can transport to the muscles by the blood. More oxygen means longer a pace can be sustained.

This is why you will see many Boardsie's hitting PBs into their late 30s and 40s

You mentioned you followed plans perviously, did you do anything in between the plans? time off usually means that your body spends the first few weeks of the training plan trying to get back to the point of fitness it was at rather than improving. You do see some benefit simply because its easier to regain fitness than it is to attain it in the first place.

Club is a good start as not only do you get advice etc but you get the motivation in training and people pushing you. Its easier to duck out of a run when you are self motivating but is slightly harder when you know your absence will be noted by someone you train with

Yes I run all year every week outside of marathon programs I do 3 runs a week averaging 15 miles per week and 2 sessions in the gym. When I am off work I run some of the BHAA races. What annoyed me was all my other times suggest that 04.30 was possible but on both ocaddions I fell short. I was thinking of doing a lot of speed work through the winter

rainbow kirby · 09-11-2011 2:19pm

You would probably notice more of a difference (to your marathon times and your shorter-distance times) if you could bring your average weekly mileage up all year round - 15mpw is quite low.

jamesmurphy1 · 09-11-2011 2:26pm

15m average per week is only outside my 20 week marathon program obviously during this time the miles go up. I thought 15m a week was enough to keep you in shape and ticking over.

ecoli · 09-11-2011 2:38pm

jamesmurphy1 wrote: »

15m average per week is only outside my 20 week marathon program obviously during this time the miles go up. I thought 15m a week was enough to keep you in shape and ticking over.

I think RK is right speedwork is not your limiting factor its strength. 15 mile a week might be able to keep you ticking over in terms of your current ability but you will have to progress if you are looking towards increasing it slowly over the course of a few months so perhaps

Month 1 - 15 mpw
Month 2 - 20 mpw
Month 3 - 20 mpw
Month 4 - 25 mpw
Month 5 - 25 mpw

This wont always involve increasing time spent. Some of this increase in mileage will simply come from fitness increases and drop in natural easy run pace. Speed work will also come into this as it can help boost the fitness which as a result will mean you will be able to get more mileage to time spent training

Younganne · 09-11-2011 3:34pm

ok Question?

When we are doing the easy pace is this the same as the LSR pace we previously trained or should it be a little faster?

I just did 4 m at avg pace of 11.06

m1=11.06, m2=11.06, m3=11.07, m4 =11.04 is this too slow or should i gradually increase it as the recovery weeks go on....

what do you use to put into the predicator, your fastest recent race or marathon time even thought this would give slow times for all the different levels, threshold, per mile, easy etc....

Younganne · 09-11-2011 3:41pm

if i put my marathon time (4:27:17) into this http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm i get easy pace of 11:49 per mile

If i put my half time(1:57) in i get easy pace of 10.49...so which is the most beneficial to follow....

ecoli · 09-11-2011 3:57pm

Younganne wrote: »

if i put my marathon time (4:27:17) into this http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm i get easy pace of 11:49 per mile

If i put my half time(1:57) in i get easy pace of 10.49...so which is the most beneficial to follow....

This is where listening to your body comes into play. Normally these calculators have a tendency to favour shorter distances especially if any athlete is lacking in strength and there is a big drop off when comparing their times.

Looking at your last run you were running 11.05 roughly and asking whether this was too slow. This would indicate to me that you werent killing yourself and that its close enough to your 10.49 predicted time off the calculator (other calculators give ranges) so I say you run was perfect and you HM times would be a good indicator for the calculator figures

Younganne · 09-11-2011 4:31pm

thanks for the swift reply Ecoli... yes very comfortable run, HR avg 149

one more question...i do Kettlebell once a week on Thursday, would it be advisable to take another week off or go back to it tomorrow?? its 75 mins exercise and i lift 7.5 kg bell??

Probably see how i feel but don't want to risk injury if recovery plan doesn't include weight for another week or so??

shazkea · 09-11-2011 4:33pm

Younganne wrote: »

if i put my marathon time (4:27:17) into this http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm i get easy pace of 11:49 per mile

If i put my half time(1:57) in i get easy pace of 10.49...so which is the most beneficial to follow....

Good question, I was changing the distances to suit myself so never had the same pace!

ecoli wrote: »

This is where listening to your body comes into play. Normally these calculators have a tendency to favour shorter distances especially if any athlete is lacking in strength and there is a big drop off when comparing their times.

Ecoli, I'm just coming back from a few months out from running so at the moment I am running to how I feel. Garmin is on but not checking the pace.
Generally the pace is faster than the calcs are telling me it should be. I assume this is fine as long as I feel comfortable during the easy runs or should I really slow down and stick to pace. For example last easy run actual pace was 09:50 and calcs are telling me ~11. I felt fine at the pace.
When I start back on harder runs (hills, intervals etc) I will stick more to the planned paces

menoscemo · 09-11-2011 4:41pm

Younganne wrote: »

thanks for the swift reply Ecoli... yes very comfortable run, HR avg 149

149 avg HR may or may not be fine depending on what is your max HR. If your max was 200 it would be great as 149 is 75% of max. If your max is 170 then 149 would be too high (88%)

As a general rule your Easy (aerobic runs) should be less than 80% max HR and recovery runs should be less than 75%. (I nabbed this from P&D).

Younganne · 09-11-2011 4:50pm

thanks menoscemo, yes my max is roughly 200+ (reached 197 max in a 10k race, 198 max in half)

I know its hard to guess Max HR but was told flat out running at end of race will give a good indication

menoscemo · 09-11-2011 4:55pm

Younganne wrote: »

thanks menoscemo, yes my max is roughly 200+ (reached 197 max in a 10k race, 198 max in half)

I know its hard to guess Max HR but was told flat out running at end of race will give a good indication

In that case 149 av seems perfect for an 'easy run'. Anything under 160 is fine for you.

barking1503 · 09-11-2011 8:52pm

ecoli wrote: »

This is one of the most common mistakes to make in running. often people become obsessed with their easy running pace and think this is the only indication of fitness and as such they are happy when they are quicker than normal. Your pace variation between training for the different distances means that you may have been pushing it little too hard on your runs ( a recipe for injury)
You easy pace when training from 5k - marathon should be the same. As you get fitter this time will come down naturally but dont push it. There is a good saying amongst runners which says "hard days hard easy days easy" as such save you faster running for the days of sessions the rest should be aimed towards recovery while also developing aerobic base. Simply put if you are running your easy days too hard you are not getting a chance to recover and the recovery period is actually where you make your gains believe it or not.

Your hard days are to break the body down and stress it while recovery days are when they body builds back up stronger making it able to cope better to the next stress. This principle is the basis of most forms of conditioning training (ie endurance sports)

E coli, Thanks again for another really helpful answer. I hate asking again, but at your leisure would you pls clarify what you term as "hard days" versus the easy days?
First post DCM run tonight, did 4 miles and really enjoyed but going to have to opt out for another while, ankle felt it afterward and fairly painful. Going mad, dying to get back to regular runs.....:(

galwayhooker · 09-11-2011 11:42pm

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19

Have lost a stone since started proper training in sept.Also i highly recommend hot yoga to help runners stamina
When i was at mile 20 and could start to feel the pain i started to think what our instructor in yoga keeps saying "hips forward and upper body back" .Def helped me.
Did no training last week - went to physio for massage and told her how left side of my left foot was sore.She reckons it could have been a touch of tendonitis and to take it easy.Felt fine few days after - even managed to get about in high heels fri night.Decided to try to get out for slow short run but as soon as i started to run the back of my left calf was a bit sore.Ran very slow for a minute and thought pain was gone but when i finished my run my calf was in agony.Took it easy and went to hot yoga mon and it seems ok again but am nervous to go out again in case.
Any advice as to what i should do?

menoscemo · 09-11-2011 11:45pm

galwayhooker wrote: »

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

Brianderunner · 10-11-2011 12:09am

menoscemo wrote: »

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

He was, until halfway. Ever heard of a negative split?

:pac:

galwayhooker · 10-11-2011 1:47am

menoscemo wrote: »

galwayhooker wrote: »

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

I was - my time was 3 hrs 52 min and 19 sec !!! - doh

I was getting excited again remembering marathon day that I must have been typing too fast

Would love to head out for long runs with ye sat morn but am based here in Navan but some morn if I am up and about early and heading to dub for day will def join ye

galwayhooker · 10-11-2011 1:47am

menoscemo wrote: »

galwayhooker wrote: »

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

I was - my time was 3 hrs 52 min and 19 sec !!! - doh

I was getting excited again remembering marathon day that I must have been typing too fast

Would love to head out for long runs with ye sat morn but am based here in Navan but some morn if I am up and about early and heading to dub for day will def join ye

maggiemissy · 10-11-2011 10:43am

great to see this thread up for a bit of motivation after the marathon. Haven't been out running since as i have a tendon injury on the right foot so hopefully can get back into it next week, was aiming to do the waterford 1/2 but will just have to wait and see how it goes over the next couple of weeks.

run44 · 10-11-2011 11:21am

Did my 4miler last night. Legs felt great and ended up doing the run as a pace run (9min miles) even though I probably shouldn't have! Will take it easy enough for the rest of the week though. After my motivation being so low recently (post-marathon blues still a factor), felt happy with myself for getting out and getting it done.

PaulieC · 10-11-2011 11:41am

Nules10 wrote: »

I like that attitude look forward to following your progress Cambo

I suppose I should 'fess up. I was really hoping to do this 50k and that was giving me the enthusiasm to beat the post-marathon blues. However, events have conspired to prevent me from doing it. My wife recently moved jobs and the new job is going to have her travelling quite a lot over the next 6 months, which although was just a possiblilty previously, became a reality last week/this week.
What it means for me (apart from having to do a lot more school uniform washing and lunch making) is that I just won't have the time to dedicate to the training required.
It's strange that last week I was all raring to go, had the bones of a training plan together and was itching to start. Now I don't even feel arsed to go out and do a few miles of an evening. I suppose that will pass. SOme nice weather and a nice run around the maulin loop on Sunday should help

Nules10 · 10-11-2011 7:53pm

cambo_gueno wrote: »

I suppose I should 'fess up. I was really hoping to do this 50k and that was giving me the enthusiasm to beat the post-marathon blues. However, events have conspired to prevent me from doing it. My wife recently moved jobs and the new job is going to have her travelling quite a lot over the next 6 months, which although was just a possiblilty previously, became a reality last week/this week.
What it means for me (apart from having to do a lot more school uniform washing and lunch making) is that I just won't have the time to dedicate to the training required.
It's strange that last week I was all raring to go, had the bones of a training plan together and was itching to start. Now I don't even feel arsed to go out and do a few miles of an evening. I suppose that will pass. SOme nice weather and a nice run around the maulin loop on Sunday should help

Aww thats a pity cambo... but on a positive note now you can work on your speed with the rest of us

Nice short fast distances

PaulieC · 10-11-2011 9:06pm

Nules10 wrote: »

Aww thats a pity cambo... but on a positive note now you can work on your speed with the rest of us Nice short fast distances

I guess I will. Must go and read the thread again to get the deets

red face dave · 10-11-2011 10:04pm

Back running this week. 3 good sessions so far. Really enjoying the shorter runs. Feel like I am running better then ever doing 4 miles at a good pace and still have loads left in the tank.
Bought a garmin today. Got the Forerunner 110 for 100 euro on wiggle.:)

Just wondering is there any races in mind for our group.

shazkea · 10-11-2011 10:41pm

red face dave wrote: »

Back running this week. 3 good sessions so far. Really enjoying the shorter runs. Feel like I am running better then ever doing 4 miles at a good pace and still have loads left in the tank.
Bought a garmin today. Got the Forerunner 110 for 100 euro on wiggle.:)

Just wondering is there any races in mind for our group.

Think the idea is to aim for Raheny 5 on Jan 29th. As I'm jumping on your DCM bandwagon tho, I'm open to all suggestions

Anyone doing any of the Dec races?

rainbow kirby · 10-11-2011 10:42pm

shazkea wrote: »

Anyone doing any of the Dec races?

Will most likely be doing the Jingle Bells 5k, and the Clonliffe 5k 2 weeks later if that goes well.

shazkea · 10-11-2011 10:45pm

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Will most likely be doing the Jingle Bells 5k, and the Clonliffe 5k 2 weeks later if that goes well.

I was thinking of doing the Aware 5 mile as a warm-up for Raheny. I hate 5kms, I can just never get settled. Also waiting to see what Jingle Bells route is...if it's up Kyber, not a chance! Decisions!!

rainbow kirby · 10-11-2011 10:48pm

I just want to get one out of the way, partly as a bit of a fitness test, and partly to blot out how crap the Donore one went back in May (the last race I actually completed).

red face dave · 10-11-2011 10:51pm

shazkea wrote: »

Think the idea is to aim for Raheny 5 on Jan 29th. As I'm jumping on your DCM bandwagon tho, I'm open to all suggestions

Anyone doing any of the Dec races?

Good stuff will be nice to run a 5 mile again. Doing the Waterford half in a few weeks all going well

meijin · 11-11-2011 9:22am

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Will most likely be doing the Jingle Bells 5k, and the Clonliffe 5k 2 weeks later if that goes well.

I hope to do Jingle Bells 5k as well. My shortest one so far was 5 miles so it might be interesting.

Cutex · 11-11-2011 11:36am

Just wanted to say thanks Ecoli for your reply. Really made me feel good about my running. I've felt that naturally my pace have gotten quicker so this suits me mentally as well as time wise. Will definitely follow programme as much as possible, maybe even rope in a baby sitter for a daytime run!

I have a torn hamstring so taking my time getting back into it. I went for my first 2m recovery run on Tuesday and although the hamstring was sore was able to run on it. My calf was cramping though, going to go out again today and see how it goes. Can't wait to get out for a good run, I miss my LSR's. Feel like I've put on about a stone since the marathon too-lots of eating and no running, not a good combo.

menoscemo · 11-11-2011 11:46am

galwayhooker wrote: »

I was - my time was 3 hrs 52 min and 19 sec !!! - doh I was getting excited again remembering marathon day that I must have been typing too fast

That's still a great negaitve splt, well done.

Younganne · 11-11-2011 12:17pm

Hi guys
Well so far so good this week. I have managed to follow the program
Tue – 2.8m, Wed - 4 m, Thur – 2.2m and planning 5m Sat/Sun

I really enjoyed the slow easy runs and thankfully there are no niggles or pains etc…makes me wonder if I could have pushed more in the marathon but no point really in going there….:rolleyes:

Weighted myself again this morning and 171.2lbs so maintaining the weight but have been more aware of my diet the last week and really trying not to eat unless hungry.. but the battle is always over the weekends!!!:eek:

Edit, just checked last weeks weight and its exactly the same at 171.2 so very happy with that!!!!

PaulieC · 11-11-2011 1:57pm

I've done 3x2.5 miles since Sunday. Stupidly enough, I did them quite fast and now I feel knacked again

On the subject of weight, I have the opposite problem to you YoungAnne, in that I feel I lost too much weight whilst training for the marathon and now I'm eating a lot to get back up to what I feel is right (~12 stone, 6ft tall). I went down to about 11 st 8 lbs. Enjoying all teh food though

Younganne · 11-11-2011 2:29pm

Enjoy the catching up on the grub...Cambo:D

I have just entered the Jingle Bells 5 k on 3rd December so that will be my first ever 5k race so will have a new PB to add to the list.:D
Only problem is i have no idea how to race a 5 k, is it go fairly hard all the way, or gently ease into it and then lash with everything you've got for the last 2 k or so.... i always tend to go out easy afraid that i will not be able to finish but as 5 k is a shorter distance maybe i need to go faster from the start and pray to god that i can hold it????:eek:

Any advice??

shazkea · 11-11-2011 2:52pm

Younganne wrote: »

Enjoy the catching up on the grub...Cambo:D

I have just entered the Jingle Bells 5 k on 3rd December so that will be my first ever 5k race so will have a new PB to add to the list.:D
Only problem is i have no idea how to race a 5 k, is it go fairly hard all the way, or gently ease into it and then lash with everything you've got for the last 2 k or so.... i always tend to go out easy afraid that i will not be able to finish but as 5 k is a shorter distance maybe i need to go faster from the start and pray to god that i can hold it????:eek:

Any advice??

That's usually my tactic because it's such a short race - I haven't done very many of them so other wiser individuals may advise otherwise. I can't say I enjoy 5kms but that's probably to do with my crap strategy!

kit3 · 11-11-2011 3:12pm

Not sure whether to classify that as a swim or a run - 5.2 miles along a very wet and windy canal - magic

Definately beats sitting at the desk. did the same on Wed & Thurs so a good week. Rest tomorrow and see what Sunday brings

RayCun · 11-11-2011 3:13pm

It's just like a marathon

you should be going at the same pace from start to finish. Except that pace is fast. Just like in a marathon, if you go too fast at the start you will pay for it in the second half. The fun is in finding out how fast is too fast...

(although some say you should plan to go a bit faster in the first k and fall away gradually from that. Even pace is easier to target)

Younganne · 11-11-2011 3:18pm

RayCun wrote: »

The fun is in finding out how fast is too fast...

Thats what i'm afraid of, but i guess it will have to happen some day....although i remember running crosscountry races at the age of 10 - 12 and after every single race, i'd get sick:eek:...i guess that was the day when i just ran as fast as i could from start to finish:D

RayCun · 11-11-2011 3:27pm

Younganne wrote: »

i remember running crosscountry races at the age of 10 - 12 and after every single race, i'd get sick:eek:...i guess that was the day when i just ran as fast as i could from start to finish:D

Sounds like you already know how to run a 5k

shazkea · 11-11-2011 3:31pm

Did they put up the Jingle Bells route yet (too lazy to look in Events thread

).

I'll decide on 5 Mile or 5km after that. 5 mile route is very similar to BUPA/Great Run 10km

RayCun · 11-11-2011 3:37pm

No, no route yet

sunflowerRo · 11-11-2011 7:02pm

Younganne wrote: »

Thats what i'm afraid of, but i guess it will have to happen some day....although i remember running crosscountry races at the age of 10 - 12 and after every single race, i'd get sick:eek:...i guess that was the day when i just ran as fast as i could from start to finish:D

Ha,. That brought a smile to my face. I remember the sickness so well. I think I used get so caught up in the excitement of the thing too and then I'd tear off like a bat outta hell.

Cutex · 12-11-2011 12:47pm

Just signed up for the Jingle Bells run too! Going out for a run today, hoping the legs feel better on this one.

Wonder how many of us r going to give this one a go???

sunflowerRo · 12-11-2011 8:08pm

Cutex wrote: »

Just signed up for the Jingle Bells run too! Going out for a run today, hoping the legs feel better on this one.

Wonder how many of us r going to give this one a go???

I just signed up too.

Did that marathon cool down race today. God I was wrecked after it. Definitely too soon after the marathon. Probably mentally more than anything. Ah well, it was lovely getting out in the fresh air anyway

Younganne · 12-11-2011 8:20pm

sunflowerRo wrote: »

I just signed up too.

Did that marathon cool down race today. God I was wrecked after it. Definitely too soon after the marathon. Probably mentally more than anything. Ah well, it was lovely getting out in the fresh air anyway

Fair play to you...i didn't get out today at all...but definitely will be out tomorrow.

sunflowerRo · 12-11-2011 8:35pm

Younganne wrote: »

Fair play to you...i didn't get out today at all...but definitely will be out tomorrow.

Its to be nice tomorrow too so enjoy

Younganne · 12-11-2011 8:50pm

Ye hoping to get out in the morning and then taking the kids to the beach for a walk!!

Lots of us doing Jingle Bells 5K. We'll have to arrange meet up so we can put faces to names!!!;)

DCM Class of 2011- the continuing challenge

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