Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

dynamick · 06-07-2010 9:20am

Phase 2 of the WRC is predicted to carry the same number of passengers in a year as the Luas does in a day.

Luas cost 13 time more but carries 365 times more people.

I'd love if the 60 million could be spent on Western public transport in a sensible way. bus lanes, cycle infrastructure, footpaths and lighting you could probably do a lot for 60 million instead of building a train service to carry 178 passengers a day.

Running near empty trains helps nobody.

As DWCommuter says, sadly this development looks very likely to happen as there is little else in the pipeline ready to build and so much planning has been done on it and it has all-party support.

DWCommuter · 06-07-2010 10:05am

Zoney wrote: »

Actually that's a bit of an exaggeration - it is low hundreds of thousands (100-200,000 conservatively) in the Galway/Limerick regions and high hundreds of thousands (even if a bit past *one* million) that would be served by the developments in Dublin. Millions vs. thousands is not quite on the mark.

I was talking about passenger journies, not actual passengers. But thanks for being pedantic.

westtip · 06-07-2010 4:27pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

I hate to disagree with you Westtip, but this line will go ahead because;

1. Its low cost and appeases the western fraternity after years of "traditional" lobbying for the restoration of their "trean".

2. It creates the "illusion" that Transport 21 is actually in motion when its really just a mechanism for developmental announcements. The key difference is that in Dublin its mere planning and preconstruction works due to the real cost of serving millions, while in the west, its easy and cheap relaying of track to provide a pitiful service to thousands.

Thats politics!

Yes indeed DW, you are probably right; the flabby white boys will be able to puff their chests out on a photo op on 6.1 news and all claim glory for WOT will be a crap service that is not needed.

westtip · 08-07-2010 10:52am

corktina wrote: »

do people from Gort or Ardrahan not travel to Galway then?

Yes of course they do - but not via Athenry!

corktina · 08-07-2010 8:52pm

and the people of Tuam? do they have a liking for the rural delights of Athenry?

D'Peoples Voice · 10-07-2010 2:22pm

dynamick wrote: »

Luas cost 13 times more but carries 365 times more people.

I'd love if the 60 million could be spent on Western public transport in a sensible way. bus lanes, cycle infrastructure, footpaths and lighting you could probably do a lot for 60 million instead of building a train service to carry 178 passengers a day.

Running near empty trains helps nobody.

I could not have articulated it any better myself.
The people of the West have been lied to/deceived numerous times over the past few generations - telling them that this or that will help their plight.
Yes perhaps this WRC will be built, but when it is, it will be to take these people's children to Shannon airport (well close to) in order to emigrate abroad because the Government will have again squandered resources.
Why, because of the lack of proper planning/imagination/research undertaken by those in power - all this Government did for the past 20 years or so is throw money at problems without looking for the proper solution for each problem!
FFS - at the last election we had Bertie boasting how much MORE money was being spent on the various services(no mention of performance), so I guess in that vein, this WRC makes sense, build it and the running costs will cost a fortune, but the Government can claim to be great because they are spending millions on public transport (all the while much needed infrastructure in the West goes on the long finger) and who cares if no-one uses it!

foggy_lad · 10-07-2010 6:21pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I could not have articulated it any better myself.
The people of the West have been lied to/deceived numerous times over the past few generations - telling them that this or that will help their plight.
Yes perhaps this WRC will be built, but when it is, it will be to take these people's children to Shannon airport (well close to) in order to emigrate abroad because the Government will have again squandered resources.
Why, because of the lack of proper planning/imagination/research undertaken by those in power - all this Government did for the past 20 years or so is throw money at problems without looking for the proper solution for each problem!
FFS - at the last election we had Bertie boasting how much MORE money was being spent on the various services(no mention of performance), so I guess in that vein, this WRC makes sense, build it and the running costs will cost a fortune, but the Government can claim to be great because they are spending millions on public transport (all the while much needed infrastructure in the West goes on the long finger) and who cares if no-one uses it!

they threw money around but not at places like st brendans hospital st ita's or st senans in wexford where it was needed! http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/ban-on-new-patients-at-dilapidated-psychiatric-hospitals-2223351.html

Aard · 10-07-2010 7:52pm

dynamick wrote: »

I'd love if the 60 million could be spent on Western public transport in a sensible way. bus lanes, cycle infrastructure, footpaths and lighting you could probably do a lot for 60 million instead of building a train service to carry 178 passengers a day.

Running near empty trains helps nobody.

+1

I have never understood this preoccupation with rail. Can anybody succinctly explain why busses are not adequate for those in favour of the WRC?

westtip · 12-07-2010 3:41pm

Aard wrote: »

+1

I have never understood this preoccupation with rail. Can anybody succinctly explain why busses are not adequate for those in favour of the WRC?

Indeed Aard this is the question that never gets asked, what would the proposed 60 million capex on Athenry Tuam branch line actually do if it were spent on the bus services between Galway and Tuam. Potentially an entire new fleet of buses, buses at more frequent times, late night bus services, buses to place where people want to go: Like Galway Airport, Retail parks and business parks. Of course this does Not even take account of the subvention required to keep the Athenry Tuam branch line open, in future years; god knows what those figures are. Add to that the level crossings on this line are actually going to slow down traffic on the N17, how is that going to help commuters and commercial traffic on this busy road? In fact i can feel a submission to ABP asking them to refuse permission on this basis and only granting permission when the road has been built......Now that would be a fly in the ointment!

The whole WRC agenda has been driven by one very vociferous and well managed pressure group and has little to do with the common man who lives in the west. It is about a toy train set for a small group of people.

DWCommuter · 12-07-2010 3:46pm

westtip wrote: »

It is about a toy train set for a small group of people.

Who won't even use it.

Judgement Day · 12-07-2010 6:15pm

Build it and they will come at least I will - for my one trip northwards from Claremorris to Collooney - and then they can rip it up again.

westtip · 13-07-2010 8:55am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Build it and they will come at least I will - for my one trip northwards from Claremorris to Collooney - and then they can rip it up again.

JD yes a wonderful idea and I will join you with a flagon of ginger beer.

13-07-2010 4:32pm

I don't think the Tuam-Athenry section impacts the N17 - it would impact the Roscommon road (N63?)

Good point on the €60,000,000 - there are bus lanes into Claregalway now.

€60,000,000 would pay for some very fancy bus stops and busses to Parkmore, Ballybrit, the University etc.

Some of these are already provided by a private operator - Burkes Busses though I would like to see greater frequency and late busses etc.

westtip · 13-07-2010 10:58pm

It will certainly hold up traffic in Tuam town centre, the N17 to my knowledge crosses the line on the crawl you generally do through tuam - admittedly the line then doew swing a long way east of the N17 in the direction of Athenry (I just wonder what the journey time Tuam/Athenry/Galway will be!) whilst the road does at least point in the direction of Galway. The real fun will start on the N17 north of Tuam - on the proposed Claremorris Tuam section - just how many times does the WRC cut over the n17 on that section 3? 4? 5? times No doubt someone can tell us - it would be a joke to have so many level crossings on a main trunk so one presumes the N17 will have to be re-developed first which will in reality kill this whole hairbrained project in any event, just as the new road to the south will spell the fast strangulation of the Limerick-Athenry - Galway branch line.

BluntGuy · 13-07-2010 11:35pm

€60,000,000 would be better spent buying one-way plane tickets for the entire CIE management to leave and never return.

A line honestly has to be drawn on the ridiculousness. Is every single other lightly-used line in the country going to have to close in order to accomodate this farce.

DWCommuter · 14-07-2010 12:34am

BluntGuy wrote: »

Is every single other lightly-used line in the country going to have to close in order to accomodate this farce.

Yes!

The WRC will be the last railway line to close.

Judgement Day · 14-07-2010 8:25am

At €60 million I would expect that Noel Dempsey and John Lynch would also be on the one-way flight. Might as well stick Biffo and the rest of the cabinet on too.:D

Stonewolf · 14-07-2010 9:21am

Judgement Day wrote: »

At €60 million I would expect that Noel Dempsey and John Lynch would also be on the one-way flight. Might as well stick Biffo and the rest of the cabinet on too.:D

Nah, with the way CIE does procurement you'd barely get a handful of people on the plane for 60 million.

westtip · 14-07-2010 12:01pm

heres a challenge - what could 60 million be better spent on in the wesht. I reckon a Claregalway relief road (similar to the enfield bypass) might just be done for about that price. It would be more popular in Tuam than a branchline to Athenry, and BTW would not need subventing on an ongoing basis - a bit of white paint, and some tarmac every five years should do it, and the lecky bill for the lamposts. Has anyone got any upto date estimates for the subvention needed for the Tuam-Athenry branch line over the first five years. BTW not seen this quote from July 6th Indo posted to this thread which surprised me

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/key-road-and-rail-projects-axed-as-money-runs-out-2247169.html

The only projects considered "safe" under the NDP are Metro North, the Atlantic Corridor Road project linking Letterkenny to Waterford, and the underground DART.

Government sources confirmed vulnerable projects included four Metro/Luas schemes -- Metro West, Luas lines from Cherrywood to Bray, Lucan to the city centre and St Stephen's Green to Liffey Junction.

Question marks also hang over the N3 Belturbet bypass in Co Cavan, the N5 Longford bypass, the N22 Tralee bypass and N25 Cork southern ring road junction upgrade.

These are due to go ahead next year "subject to funding being available". Phase two and three of the Western Rail Corridor are also in doubt as the Government undertakes its review of the NDP.

Mmmm.....tell us what we didn't know and suspect - I wonder WOT positive spin WOT will put on this no doubt they will come out with a press release to counteract it! With the Dail not sitting and an announcement probably due on in the WRC in September - the PR softening up process is now in place - a few more DOT PR releases lads and we will at long last know this lunatic idea is buried.

good news about the ATR though.....although that won't happen either in our lifetimes.

Pete2k · 14-07-2010 12:52pm

westtip wrote: »

It will certainly hold up traffic in Tuam town centre, the N17 to my knowledge crosses the line on the crawl you generally do through tuam - admittedly the line then doew swing a long way east of the N17 in the direction of Athenry (I just wonder what the journey time Tuam/Athenry/Galway will be!) whilst the road does at least point in the direction of Galway. The real fun will start on the N17 north of Tuam - on the proposed Claremorris Tuam section - just how many times does the WRC cut over the n17 on that section 3? 4? 5? times No doubt someone can tell us - it would be a joke to have so many level crossings on a main trunk so one presumes the N17 will have to be re-developed first which will in reality kill this whole hairbrained project in any event, just as the new road to the south will spell the fast strangulation of the Limerick-Athenry - Galway branch line.

Assuming the new station in Tuam is either a refurbishment of the existing building or is built in the same location then the Tuam-Athenry section will have absolutely no effect on Traffic through Tuam town. There are 2 level crossings in Tuam. The first is located just beside the station but to the west of it so any train to or from Athenry will not have to cross it to get to the station. The other level crossing does indeed cross the N17 but this is about 300-400m to the west of the other crossing again so neither gate would have to be closed to allow trains to enter Tuam. The only effect on traffic through Tuam would be an increase in cars to and from Tuam station with people either parking there or dropping people off to catch the train and then collecting them again.

How many times does the WRC cross the N17 between Tuam-Claremorris? Answer is 5. Once in Tuam, twice between Milltown-Ballindine and twice between Ballindine-Claremorris. Only 2 of the crossings are still manual gates though, the one in Tuam and the one nearest Milltown. The other 3 were all automated in the 90's when the line was still carrying freight.

westtip · 14-07-2010 1:57pm

Pete2k wrote: »

The only effect on traffic through Tuam would be an increase in cars to and from Tuam station with people either parking there or dropping people off to catch the train and then collecting them again..

Now you are seriously having a laugh, a special offer at Lidl will cause more traffic issues than the rush to catch trains on the Tuam/Athenry branch line. Any idea what the commute time to Galway will be?

Pete2k wrote: »

How many times does the WRC cross the N17 between Tuam-Claremorris? Answer is 5. Once in Tuam, twice between Milltown-Ballindine and twice between Ballindine-Claremorris. Only 2 of the crossings are still manual gates though, the one in Tuam and the one nearest Milltown. The other 3 were all automated in the 90's when the line was still carrying freight.

Thanks for that I thought it was around that mark; Automated or not that's five points of crossing - so five hold up points for commercial traffic and people trying to get to where they work in outer parts of Galway surburban area, and through traffic on the N17/18 to places like Shannon to get flights, people doing school runs etc - boy this will be popular in that part of Galway. Mind you it should be no more than 5 trains a day each way 10 in total, Mind you at 4 minutes per hold up thats 40 minutes hold up per level crossings times by five level crossings that's 200 minutes of delays per day on the N17 between claremorris and Tuam, Wow! who would have thought this was the way the WRC would beat the bus timetables! Then each hold up will create a "convoy" effect on traffic having bunched up cars in queues and releasing them each time as an unnecessary build of traffic onto what is known as a notorious section of road - so the WRC will in all liklihood result in risky overtaking on a dangerous road, resulting in more traumatic accidents - you see start to pile all this thinking up and then sit back and wonder??? In fact the way the crossings are interspersed, a hold up at one crossing on the N17, may actually lead to dangerous driving as drivers will say I want to toe it down this section of the road so I don't get caught by the same train six miles down the road, if an impatient driver is say caught at the back of a convoy created at one crossing starts to take risks to prevent another hold up (and this is a realistic picture to paint), then this may lead to accidents - now i know the train per se will not be at fault - the impatient driver will be - but why create this scenario? I can feel a note to ABP, DOT, A&E consultants at Casltebar, NRA, coming on to point out this potential creator of a traffic hazard, they might just take notice don't ya think?

Boy no wonder it was recently said the ARC is a greater priority - and all this probably to serve about 20 passengers on average per train. don't ya think it all begins to sound a bit on the silly side of common sense!

BTW there are 290 crossings on the Claremorris/Collooney section, but lets not even go there!

Anyway as the Indo reported last week phases 2 and 3 now look under pressure and the ARC seems to be the shining star of capital projects in the west. Not before time as well - politicians might wake up to what the real vote winner in the west is - At least some sense may come out of tighter fiscal thinking.

Hungerford · 14-07-2010 7:34pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

Is every single other lightly-used line in the country going to have to close in order to accomodate this farce.

Yep. It appears that the cuts will be as follows:

Price of Phase 1: Waterford to Rosslare
Price of Phase 2: Nenagh Branch
Price of Phase 3: Limerick to Waterford

Although not officially on the agenda, the word is that IE remain close Wexford-Rosslare. If I can summon the motivation, I may even do a map showing the likely new shape of the railway network post the consessions to the Wesht.

highlydebased · 14-07-2010 8:15pm

Alright, lets shut down the rail network because of level crossings. A danger to humanity and society.

westtip · 14-07-2010 8:26pm

Hungerford wrote: »

post the consessions to the Wesht.

to certain parts of the wesht. the two branch lines from ennis to Athenry and the branch line from claremorris/Tuam to Athenry will service a tiny portion of the western population.

And remember there are those of us in the wesht who see the folly of it all!

Re Rail crossings in the post above, no railway crossings are not a dnager to to life and society but 5 railway crossings by one rail line across one national route within a distance of 20 miles is actually unacceptable to road users and to public transport users and providers (bus companies), and actually could be dangerous - and may not get planning permission because of the inherent dangers it will create. I have never thought of this angle but I am sure there are businesses in the wesht who will object to this delay in supply chain logistics that the branch line from Athenry to Claremorris is going to cause. Certainly I think now it is time to highlight this potential danger.

According to NRA traffic counts http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm

14,390 vehicles a day used the Tuam road N17 in March 2010, that's a lot of people to get held up at five railway crossings, no the railway crossings of the branch line over the N17 will not threaten humanity they will however make it more difficult to supply goods, get to school and work and to plan journies, do you really think they are going to build bridges at all these crossing points? Because that is what is needed. Tell me where else in the country are National routes crossed over by rail crossings to this degree? I think the truth is now out - the ARC is at long last seen as the priority and yes it will be more expensive, but to open the branch line from Athenry to Tuam and Claremorris is going to cause mayhem on on a national road route - and this will have to be resolved first. I am now totally convinced this project is going to the back of a very long queue and really the reason why is now so blindingly obvious. Its a simple engineering issue.

I think WOT should start campaigning for the N17 upgrade - because until that happens I don't think there is going to be any railway - and if the N17 doesn't get upgraded frankly who will give a toss about the branch line from Athenry to tuam and Claremorris. BE will be able to destroy the rail service (I know farcical isn't it), Private busess will destroy BE, and our newpapers will arrive on time in the morning - and guess what most of us in the west will never have to go near Tuam again......now there's a thought.

Pete2k · 15-07-2010 12:06am

The figure I've heard on commute time from Tuam-Galway is 35mins. This assumes no stop in Ballyglunin (believe me it's quite plausible that if the line does go ahead then the station here could well be redeveloped given it's 'famous':rolleyes: status) and no stop at the future Oranmore station.

I do think your somewhat wrong on the traffic situation tho Westtip as I do honestly think that a few people who refuse to use buses will use the train. however 80% of the trains future patronage will come from people who currently use Burkes Bus. This will shift the traffic from the Cathedral car park to the station. Assuming the fares are pretty close I can see alot of people switching given it could potentially be 30mins quicker in peak hrs than the bus to Eyre Square. I used Burkes myself for 4 yrs in college and I can tell you that alot of students do commute to Galway every day from Tuam, if the train had been available then I probably would have used it assuming the fares were near enough. I hated the journey in and out of Galway every day stuck in traffic for ages and then stopping about 30 times letting people get on and off anywhere they wanted. Yes it was a good service for them but not for anyone going all the way to Tuam. And it wasn't just students either, quite a few other people used to get on and off in Eyre Square as well so many of them would probably switch.
Now I know there's the argument of why provide a Train when there's already an existing bus service but I'm not going to get into that argument, I'm only stating what I think will happen and if IE provide a train that goes to the same place as the bus but potentially 30mins+ quicker for the same price then of course people are going to use it.

corktina · 15-07-2010 9:15am

experiance with the Ennis to Athenry shows quite clearly that bus and train prices will be very dis-similar....
how can you justify spending many many miliions in Capital plus more millions in subsidy for a service used by perhaps two busfulls of people a day?

foggy_lad · 15-07-2010 9:29am

How much is galway to limerick by train? €20 and that is heavily subsidized! Compare that to busses on the same route that are faster for €10-€15 and ask yourself how would the 2nd stretch of the western rail folly be any cheaper than the alternatives?

Neworder79 · 15-07-2010 10:06am

As said many times on this thread most people living in the West would far rather see the N17/N5 improvements prioratised before experimental rail projects. But one loud lobby group have take over the western infrastructure debate.

The problem is the Government have been telling us we can have it all for the last 10 years, there was no need to lobby for roads, those days are clearly over and much of the planned road infrastructure is suspended, but the rail group still shouted the loudest.

westtip · 15-07-2010 10:45am

Neworder79 wrote: »

As said many times on this thread most people living in the West would far rather see the N17/N5 improvements prioratised before experimental rail projects. But one loud lobby group have take over the western infrastructure debate.

The problem is the Government have been telling us we can have it all for the last 10 years, there was no need to lobby for roads, those days are clearly over and much of the planned road infrastructure is suspended, but the rail group still shouted the loudest.

I think there is a growing realisation that the priority now is the N17, (even amongst our politicians) not least cos of the tragic road safety record it has and because the ARC is actually of huge strategic economic and social signifigance. I think you might find the WRC north of Athenry will be suspended until the road is finished, from the N6 - Claremorris and one of the reasons for this is that which I have highlighted in the past few days - re the amount of times the rail line cuts across the N17 which I hadn't given a second thought to till recently - the actual excuse to suspend the WRC north of Athenry (not that any is needed its a complete folly) will be the fiscal situation - we can't afford this line, based on need/demand versus priority on funds - the funding of the WRC is simply not a high priority.

I really am beginning to think that WOT need to get their act together - cos the final link they really want (and as DW has pointed out a long time ago - this whole campaign was always about a line to Claremorris), will not happen as long as the existing N17 remains the arterial road route - until that section is upgraded and completely rebuilt on another route a train line that cuts across the main road 5 times in such a short distance on the N17 simply won't happen (surely not even in Ireland could we see such stupidity) - and lobbyists and government agencies such as NRA, the RSA, ABP, the Road Haulage industry, the private bus industry will or at least should have something to say about it - and it won't be a matter of road v rail, but a matter of safety versus danger. If the road is delivered of course the whole raison d'etre of the branch line from Claremorris to Athenry becomes very questionable. I actually do think WOT are now between the rock and the hard place and the future of the branch line north of Athenry is very very shaky.

Pete2k wrote: »

The figure I've heard on commute time from Tuam-Galway is 35mins..

Not sure where you get this figure from - but I think you do have to assume the stops you mentioned - I guess the branch line from the north doesn't need to have driver turn round time at Athenry when the "corridor" meets the T junction to Galway. Your 35 minutes is probably based on a straight run through and no waits at Athenry for clearance to use the single track line into Galway, which admittedly if this project was going to be done properly should have been double tracked when phase 1 was built - but lets not go there eh!

Pete2k wrote: »

I do think your somewhat wrong on the traffic situation tho Westtip as I do honestly think that a few people who refuse to use buses will use the train. however 80% of the trains future patronage will come from people who currently use Burkes Bus...

Point made by others - why spend 60 million in CAPEX on building a rail line for students (all respect to our students), when they have a bus service already and in the hope a "few people" to use your own phrase will start using the train - and why should the Germans money we have to borrow for this project be used to put Burkes buses out of business?

Pete2k wrote: »

Assuming the fares are pretty close ...

Others have said it but the evidence across the country and indeed in the UK (compare rail fares with bus fares there) there is no reason to make this assumption - in fact quite the opposite!

Pete2k wrote: »

Now I know there's the argument of why provide a Train when there's already an existing bus service but I'm not going to get into that argument, I'm only stating what I think will happen and if IE provide a train that goes to the same place as the bus but potentially 30mins+ quicker for the same price then of course people are going to use it.

Your assumptions I think may be a bit shaky and are not sound enough reasons to borrow another 60 million from the Germans and to increase the national Overdraft further to subvent the line in the future. BTW: Just because some of us argue against the Tuam/Claremorris branchline does not mean to say we are against public transport being improved we just see a different and more cost effective way of doing it.

Hungerford · 15-07-2010 11:56am

As promised by me yesterday. I have got the crayons out - it's based on someone else's map so the spelling mistakes aren't mine. I haven't included the Clonsilla to Navan line because I didn't have the alignment details to hand.

The current network:

The network following the rumoured sacrifices so that WOT can be pleased. Look how empty the South-East is...

guinnessdrinker · 15-07-2010 12:39pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Look how empty the South-East is...

It looks a bit empty alright but looking at the map alone, look inside the large triangle from Derry-Dublin-Sligo, no operational rail line anywhere within that massive area.

Judgement Day · 15-07-2010 1:11pm

Hungerford - I think you not being drastic enough and the Ballina branch, Mallow/Tralee and the Sligo line north of Mullingar could be added to your list. I remember Jack Higgins, a former GM of CIE, stating back in the early 1980s that the no further amount of closures would have any worthwhile effect on the deficit and would in fact kill the patient.

Pete2k · 15-07-2010 1:49pm

westtip wrote: »

Not sure where you get this figure from - but I think you do have to assume the stops you mentioned - I guess the branch line from the north doesn't need to have driver turn round time at Athenry when the "corridor" meets the T junction to Galway. Your 35 minutes is probably based on a straight run through and no waits at Athenry for clearance to use the single track line into Galway, which admittedly if this project was going to be done properly should have been double tracked when phase 1 was built - but lets not go there eh!

35mins is the figure that's pretty much been said round ere for quite awhile on how long the trip would take and your right it does assume a straight run thru from Athenry to Galway with no delays. And absolutely I agree that Athenry-Galway should have been doubled tracked as soon as Phase 1 started. However at the very least should phase 2 go ahead then a passing loop at Oranmore is essential.

westtip wrote: »

Point made by others - why spend 60 million in CAPEX on building a rail line for students (all respect to our students), when they have a bus service already and in the hope a "few people" to use your own phrase will start using the train - and why should the Germans money we have to borrow for this project be used to put Burkes buses out of business?!

At the moment Burkes run about 7-8 coaches from Tuam to Galway every morning before 8am (this includes the Milltown & Dunmore ones that also pick people up in Tuam) depending on time of year, college, etc. You also have BE coaches serving the town. Now from my own experience of knowing how many get on/off in Tuam and Eyre Square and adding in those that wont use a bus for the reasons I said in my last post then I could see around 300+/- a few using the trains each morning assuming that you had 2, one leaving round 7.10am, the other at say 8.10am. Factor in other trains during the day and i'd say you'd have an average of around 500 a day using the train each way. Sunday evenings/Monday mornings (count the 2 together for arguments sake) Tuam-Galway and Friday evenings Galway-Tuam daily loadings wouldn't be too far off the 1K mark quite possibly. Burkes wont go out of business but they would defo be downsized.

westtip wrote: »

Others have said it but the evidence across the country and indeed in the UK (compare rail fares with bus fares there) there is no reason to make this assumption - in fact quite the opposite!

Given the short distance between Tuam-Galway I don't think you're looking a very expensive ticket. You're looking at something like Gort-Galway. Then factor in student discounts, tax relief on commuter tickets and you're looking only slightly more expensive than burkes but perhaps 30mins quicker journey time.

westtip wrote: »

Your assumptions I think may be a bit shaky and are not sound enough reasons to borrow another 60 million from the Germans and to increase the national Overdraft further to subvent the line in the future. BTW: Just because some of us argue against the Tuam/Claremorris branchline does not mean to say we are against public transport being improved we just see a different and more cost effective way of doing it.

I'm not disagreeing with this at all, you're right at the moment i don't think the country can really afford it, but if it does go ahead then what i've posted above is what I think the times, loadings, fares etc. will be and I don't think the subvention will be near as much as people on here are guessing it will be.
On an similar note I don't think the country can afford the ARC either. Personally I'd much rather see the existing N17 upgraded to a quality where the entire road is of a similar quality to say the Ballindine-Knock section with Claregalway, Tuam & Milltown bypassed. I just don't think the volume of traffic on the road supports a motorway or dual carraigeway and upgrading the existing road could be done for far less than building an M17.

westtip · 15-07-2010 2:10pm

Pete2k wrote: »

On an similar note I don't think the country can afford the ARC either. Personally I'd much rather see the existing N17 upgraded to a quality where the entire road is of a similar quality to say the Ballindine-Knock section with Claregalway, Tuam & Milltown bypassed. I just don't think the volume of traffic on the road supports a motorway or dual carraigeway and upgrading the existing road could be done for far less than building an M17.

Thanks for all that local knowledge on the numbers commuting into Galway every morning, frankly they surprised me - I actually agree about the motorway issue for the N17, traffic volumes don't actually justify a motorway and yes bypasses would make a huge difference.

My point is this though - the road upgrade needs to be done first. If the rail line is built to Claremorris with 5 railway crossings on N17 it will add insult to injury for users of the N17, and I don't think for one minute the railway will take a significant portion of cars off the road. The upgrading of the road has to take the five crossings out of the equation. We can't afford the WRC and we can't afford the N17 upgrade and we certainly can't afford the N17 to be made to perform worse due to railway crossings. It's a bit chicken and egg. I certainly don't think road users on the N17 will accept a decision to make the N17 slower in order that a Rail line which it is marginal that we need is built whilst the road is ignored. The road project may well be more expensive but without the road improvements I don't think there can be a rail project due to the problems it will cause on the existing road. It will be interesting to hear what the road using lobby has to say about it.

dowlingm · 15-07-2010 2:59pm

I can see it now - they drop 60m on Tuam and then start wondering exactly where they can fit another inbound train on a single track line from Athenry-Galway. No doubt the answer will be to rob Athlone of their train! Meanwhile said train will either be positioned from Galway in the early mornings or crews taxied to and from Galway like Rosslare. Then like Limerick-Galway a 27k will be deemed unworthy and yet another 22k robbed to service it, and IE will contrive yet another timetable which fails to provide service to Dublin from an Athenry branch.

Tuam-Galway by road - 34km
Tuam-Galway by rail - 51km. 50% longer...

westtip · 15-07-2010 4:10pm

It's all got the makings of a dogs breakfast, but there is going to be some elements of change at Athenry either for users from the northern brach line passengers or southern branch line passengers - possibly both of them to pick up trains from Athlone. WOT will then count the passengers coming off this train in Galway and claim they are all "corridor" passengers, conveniently ignoring those who have been travelling on the well established East - West line to Athenry/Athlone.

the branch line "corridor" passengers will get fed up with the service levels stop using it and the branch lines will be closed again.

dowlingm · 15-07-2010 7:32pm

If IE didn't use split/join between Galway and Athenry, platform space at Galway could also be a problem what with only two platforms being available a.t.m. and little chance of a development led revamp of the station. There could be a commitment to minimising standing on the platform but that would be contingent on crew rest and on track paths so the trains could leave! The alternative would be to simply open up the adjoining shed and place a platform there without revamping the station, but the local pols wouldn't like that much I'd say.

mk6705 · 15-07-2010 10:13pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Hungerford - I think you not being drastic enough and the Ballina branch, Mallow/Tralee and the Sligo line north of Mullingar could be added to your list. I remember Jack Higgins, a former GM of CIE, stating back in the early 1980s that the no further amount of closures would have any worthwhile effect on the deficit and would in fact kill the patient.

If the Mallow to Tralee line is closed in favor of a line from Galway to Sligo, I'll go and derail that train myself. That won't happen though. It doesn't make sense.

westtip · 17-07-2010 7:45pm

Adro947 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense.

Ahem - just think about WOT u write! and the organisations involved.

sdanseo · 17-07-2010 7:56pm

Train from Galway to sligo would be handy. But not at the sacrifice of current routes.

Having a train that goes from Limerick to Galway in nearly twice the time it can be done by road (after M18 is done to Cruaghwell) combined with the pull-in, reverse-out 19th-century arrangement in Athenry make me want to ********** ** ******** ******

corktina · 17-07-2010 8:10pm

a PROPER service from Limerick to galway would have been welcomed with open arms by the legion of WRC detracters on here....

westtip · 19-07-2010 2:38pm

sdonn wrote: »

Train from Galway to sligo would be handy. But not at the sacrifice of current routes.

.

Would be handy I've not seen that one before. In the highly unlikely event that this happens, on the current alignment which WOT want to restore the travel time will be about 3 hours from Sligo to Galway! Handy that.

sdanseo · 19-07-2010 3:13pm

westtip wrote: »

Would be handy I've not seen that one before. In the highly unlikely event that this happens, on the current alignment which WOT want to restore the travel time will be about 3 hours from Sligo to Galway! Handy that.

Hmm, didn't know that although I should have suspected it would be ridiculously time consuming. Stupid, stupid, stupid is all I can say to it really.

rainbowdash · 21-07-2010 10:40pm

I was just speaking to somebody who got the train up and down from LimerickK to Galway today and they said it was packed both ways.

At this stage the novelty factor is no longer a valid excuse and maybe the detractors should accept that they were at least a bit wrong.

Given that the journey times are not that fast nor is the timetable all that clever its starting to look like the line will be a success despite itself.

Now imagine direct or one change properly timetabled and properly priced trains from Wexford, Kerry and Cork to Galway and Westport / Ballina / Castlebar which would be achieved by fixing Athenry - Claremorris only, a section that was operational not that long ago, what sort of numbers would we be looking at.

foggy_lad · 21-07-2010 11:25pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

I was just speaking to somebody who got the train up and down from LimerickK to Galway today and they said it was packed both ways.

At this stage the novelty factor is no longer a valid excuse and maybe the detractors should accept that they were at least a bit wrong.

Given that the journey times are not that fast nor is the timetable all that clever its starting to look like the line will be a success despite itself.

Now imagine direct or one change properly timetabled and properly priced trains from Wexford, Kerry and Cork to Galway and Westport / Ballina / Castlebar which would be achieved by fixing Athenry - Claremorris only, a section that was operational not that long ago, what sort of numbers would we be looking at.

did your friend get numbers? packed to many people is half full for a few stops or just a good few on board from limerick to ennis or ennis to limerick!

when irish rail provide good numbers for those making the full journey from galway/athenry to ennis/limerick or back i will beleive the line is a success.

highlydebased · 22-07-2010 12:36am

Going to go to Galway on train soon to see for myself how busy it is.

foggy_lad · 22-07-2010 1:47am

I really do hope it is as busy as some are saying because god knows this country needs a success story.

Zoney · 22-07-2010 10:56am

Well, one thing in its favour is that regardless of the poor journey time, it is a pleasant journey. Whether it is *because* of the slow speed or not, I don't know, but it is a very relaxed and smooth trip and you don't even really realise that you're only on a commuter train (these usually ride dreadfully on the other lines in my experience). Maybe the relay was actually rather good and not having 201s tearing up the track helps?

I've not heard of delays or problems either - so I would imagine anyone who's taken the journey has had a positive experience and is likely to do so again. It is still quite a long and tiresome journey by road, and even though the last piece of motorway will make it quicker, it will still be very monotonous and you'll either be cramped up in a car as a passenger, or else having to do driving as well as take the car journey.

Iarnród Éireann could really do with introducing a midweek return like Bus Éireann though - it is a bit stark of a jump in price between day return (reasonable price) and a return valid for a month (not so reasonable).

The most depressing part of the train journey in my experience was Galway station. What a dump! Limerick by contrast, even though not a lot has been done to it, is just a lot friendlier with being a bit cleaner and having a lot of people in it all the time now (and the new coffee dock is pretty decent, and "Platform 5" is nicer just for not being so deserted).

Judgement Day · 22-07-2010 11:59am

I still haven't managed a trip on the line yet; any chance that somebody could post some railcar internal shots i.e. of passengers from one of their trips. Another question - is there a bookstall or refreshment room in Galway still?

Zoney · 23-07-2010 9:34am

Judgement Day wrote: »

I still haven't managed a trip on the line yet; any chance that somebody could post some railcar internal shots i.e. of passengers from one of their trips. Another question - is there a bookstall or refreshment room in Galway still?

There's a shop that has a sort-of café/bar stuck behind the shop's refridgerator units...

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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