Why is Kenny refusing an honest debate?

oscarBravo · 30-05-2012 8:20pm

That's quite the non sequitur.

Wild Bill · 30-05-2012 8:27pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's quite the non sequitur.

Au contraire.

It's to the point is a way the most of the "yes" waffle (embracing fantasy) isn't.

I guess you probably reckoned I'd not know what a non sequitur is? :cool:

You guys are so consistently wrong on so many levels it leaves me breathless.......from laughing :cool:

It is to escape the reality referred to on the WSJ that Clueless Kenny choked on the idea of a debate.

tayto lover · 30-05-2012 8:40pm

ColHol wrote: »

Theres also the fact that he was the leader of the party who got the most votes. People knew when they were voting for Fine Gael that Enda would be Taoiseach and still voted for them, so you can really argue with that. Who would you have picked in the last GE instead?

OT, Im not too fussed that he isnt debating. There has been plenty of debate around the treaty and the Government has been well represented, so I dont see the point in trotting Enda out for show when he has a cabinet there that can do just as good, or if not better. If the reason he isnt is that he isnt good at debating, so what?

He basically lied throughout the whole General Election campaign.
What promises, if any, did he actually keep ?

Captainjjack · 30-05-2012 10:06pm

tayto lover wrote: »

He basically lied throughout the whole General Election campaign.
What promises, if any, did he actually keep ?

None. He broke all of his promises. When I seen him on the news yesterday, he tried to put on the bertie sympathy act by speaking in a distressed tone. Here in Donegal, I don't know anyone voting yes.

Sponge Bob · 30-05-2012 11:42pm

Channel 4 News sent their main Political Reporter to follow Enda Kenny around.

This is frankly one of the most pathetic efforts at 'canvassing' that I have ever seen ......with the Channel 4 Reporter reduced to URGING Enda to canvass at one point. 'Bertie Ahern would have waded in' he said...watch what Enda did then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLGhDyQjc_w

Seth Brundle · 31-05-2012 9:22am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

'Bertie Ahern would have waded in' he said...watch what Enda did then.

Can't see the vid but if Bertie would have done something then the right thing to do would be the complete opposite!

meglome · 31-05-2012 12:18pm

kbannon wrote: »

Can't see the vid but if Bertie would have done something then the right thing to do would be the complete opposite!

It's funny isn't it. Bertie would have been straight in there talking absolute shíte but we seem to be wanting Kenny to do the same. Have we learned nothing.

Mance Rayder · 31-05-2012 1:08pm

To be honest he looks tired and he is treating people with respect by not being in their faces. If they should wish to speak with him he is right there, otherwise he is not forcing it upon them, which is more than can be said for the no side. The news reporter wants him to take the bait but he is having none of it.

Fair play to him.

Ozymandius2011 · 31-05-2012 3:31pm

I think he's pursuing a Fabian strategy of attempting to defeat the enemy by not engaging them in battle.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 3:43pm

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I think he's pursuing a Fabian strategy of attempting to defeat the enemy by not engaging them in battle.

Or he's recognizing the truth in the classic maxim: 'Never argue with a fool because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 5:23pm

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Or he's recognizing the truth in the classic maxim: 'Never argue with a fool because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'.

Enda has plenty of experience of lying as he did it throughout the whole General Election campaign. So he is at their level already as he is dirty.

swampgas · 31-05-2012 8:39pm

My objection to a leaders' debate is that it would make the referendum into a popularity contest. It should be a decision on the merits of the treaty itself.

steelcityblues · 31-05-2012 9:19pm

Just saw Phil Hogan on the 9 O'Clock news. Where was he in recent weeks? :rolleyes:

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 9:37pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

Just saw Phil Hogan on the 9 O'Clock news. Where was he in recent weeks? :rolleyes:

Hidden away in case he ruined the "Yes" vote. You can bet your life you'll see plenty of him from now on (unless we have to vote again).

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 9:39pm

swampgas wrote: »

My objection to a leaders' debate is that it would make the referendum into a popularity contest. It should be a decision on the merits of the treaty itself.

Is that actually really really true ?
I suspect it's because you know he'd would do very badly in a debate.

swampgas · 31-05-2012 9:59pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Is that actually really really true ?
I suspect it's because you know he'd would do very badly in a debate.

I accept that Enda Kenny is not a strong debater.

How good or bad the Taoiseach is in debate should not be the reason you vote yes or no though.

If Enda Kenny were the world's greatest orator I would still be against it.

Wild Bill · 31-05-2012 10:12pm

swampgas wrote: »

I accept that Enda Kenny is not a strong debater.

As he lied his way to power it's fair to say he isn't much of a Taoiseach either

Seth Brundle · 31-05-2012 10:34pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

As he lied his way to power it's fair to say he isn't much of a Taoiseach either

just because most people didn't want ff in power doesn't mean that whatever Kenny said was believed.
FG & Lab were stupid for making promises as they had no need to do so; the electorate were always going to vote for them.

steelcityblues · 31-05-2012 10:38pm

John McGurk just said on RTE Radio that if the 'NO' side just shade it, Enda will probably pass the buck on to Simon Coveney and Lucinda Creighton - who actually did the hard work of numerous debates - while he hid away.

Would say a lot about him.

Wild Bill · 31-05-2012 10:54pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

Would say a lot about him.

Says a lot about him

Wild Bill · 31-05-2012 10:58pm

kbannon wrote: »

just because most people didn't want ff in power doesn't mean that whatever Kenny said was believed.
FG & Lab were stupid for making promises as they had no need to do so; the electorate were always going to vote for them.

So, even when he didn't have any reason to, he preferred lies to telling the truth!

Neatly sums up the politicians urging a "yes" vote :cool:

meglome · 01-06-2012 1:10am

steelcityblues wrote: »

Would say a lot about him.

Wild Bill wrote: »

Says a lot about him

Lads nothing has actually happened yet and you're having a go like he's been out killing babies. Chill and let's keep things in perspective.

Seth Brundle · 01-06-2012 1:26am

Wild Bill wrote: »

Neatly sums up the politicians urging a "yes" vote :cool:

I didn't sum up the politicians urging a yes vote! I contradicted your point on how Kenny got to become Taoiseach!

However, how would you sum up those on the no side?
(just for clarity, I thought the yes side were dreadful but the no side were much worse)

Wild Bill · 01-06-2012 7:30am

kbannon wrote: »

I didn't sum up the politicians urging a yes vote! I contradicted your point on how Kenny got to become Taoiseach!

However, how would you sum up those on the no side?

Varied. The extreme left obviously still believe in the free lunch notion; some are far more realistic about our situation. SF are downplaying the pain involved even in a sane strategy, but their strategy is at least sane.

As the treaty doesn't have to be ratified till next March we're chucking away another of our cards for no reason other than the dreadful Kenny's desire for another pat on the back from Merkel & Co.

It's clear that the idea that we can "return to the markets" within a year is complete balderdash in the current economic paradigm, as is Noonan's "growth taking off like a rocket" baloney.

By the year end there are, in order of likelihood, the following possibilities:

(1) The "austerity consensus" in the euro zone will have completely collapsed

(2) The bailout system currently in operation will have been overwhelmed by the bankruptcy/default of Spain, Greece and perhaps several more countries

(3) The punitive German scheme for sorting the debt crisis will have been abandoned and a massive money printing will be underway and the ECB will paying national debt with printer's ink.

(4) The euro will collapse.

Of course, given the way the Germans and (their local quislings) are dodging reality all of the above could happen in sequence!

The sooner we inject sanity into the situation, the better chance of avoiding the worst. Voting "yes" will only encourage the Germans to keep digging. It is - politically, economically, strategically - the wrong thing to do - the act of a nation with the cowardly at the helm.

Captain Kenny and his crew think that if they close their eyes the icebergs really disappear.

meglome · 01-06-2012 10:15am

kbannon wrote: »

However, how would you sum up those on the no side?
(just for clarity, I thought the yes side were dreadful but the no side were much worse)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hGFrvevXHM

Francie Barrett · 01-06-2012 2:40pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

As he lied his way to power it's fair to say he isn't much of a Taoiseach either

Nonsense.

Enda Kenny is pragmatic enough to know that dealing with Europe is a matter of negotiation. If he went into a meeting with Merkel, threatening to bring the whole Euro edifice down, then he will be given very short thrift, much like the Greeks have been given.

Wild Bill · 01-06-2012 8:28pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Nonsense.

Enda Kenny is pragmatic enough to know that dealing with Europe is a matter of negotiation. If he went into a meeting with Merkel, threatening to bring the whole Euro edifice down, then he will be given very short thrift, much like the Greeks have been given.

Even if you were right, which you aren't, it doesn't change the central fact of his leadership - he lied his way to power :cool:

oscarBravo · 01-06-2012 8:34pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

Even if you were right, which you aren't, it doesn't change the central fact of his leadership - he lied his way to power :cool:

Thereby securing his place in history as the first politician ever to do so?

Sand · 01-06-2012 8:41pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Thereby securing his place in history as the first politician ever to do so?

Certainly undermining his claim to be the first politician in Irish history to deliver transparent, honest and effective governance.

oscarBravo · 01-06-2012 8:44pm

Sand wrote: »

Certainly undermining his claim to be the first politician in Irish history to deliver transparent, honest and effective governance.

I don't recall him claiming that.

The carping on about "lying" is a bit tiresome, is all. Politicians tell us what we want to hear so that we'll elect them. This is our fault, because we won't elect politicians who don't tell us what we want to hear.

If we want politicians not to lie to us, we're going to need to start electing politicians who tell us the truth during election campaigns.

guitarzero · 01-06-2012 8:47pm

The last thing enda wants is to do the dirty work. You've got a stubborn cow in Creighton who's willing to continuously regurgitate rhetoric, substantiating with more rhetoric.

Its almost like the bullsh*t never ends as fianna gael will be out and the next rhetorical party Fianna Fail will be back in selling us out. I feel like I'm sharing the same streets, shops and public transport with complete and utter morons and donkeys. To think that this cycle of boll*x can go on after all this makes me come around some very sad truths that cant be consoled.

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 10:56am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't recall him claiming that.

The carping on about "lying" is a bit tiresome, is all. Politicians tell us what we want to hear so that we'll elect them. This is our fault, because we won't elect politicians who don't tell us what we want to hear.

If we want politicians not to lie to us, we're going to need to start electing politicians who tell us the truth during election campaigns.

“Our purpose now must be to redouble our efforts, to work even harder to deliver our plan to get Ireland working.

“These tough times require straight talk, so we will continue to be straight and honest with the people.”

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Fine-Gael-convention-hears-Enda-Kenny-vow-to-complete-Irish-economys-transformation-145474235.html#ixzz1wd0YHc1f

I suppose its only a coincidence that it was dated April 1st but he did vow several time to clean up politics. He obviously didn't keep his word just like he didn't keep his election promises.

Ozymandius2011 · 02-06-2012 7:08pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Nonsense.

Enda Kenny is pragmatic enough to know that dealing with Europe is a matter of negotiation. If he went into a meeting with Merkel, threatening to bring the whole Euro edifice down, then he will be given very short thrift, much like the Greeks have been given.

There's negotiation and there's sell out. The Unionists got the principle of consent copperfastened and decommissioning completed by playing hardball in the Northern negotiations. The Greeks got half their debt written off. The Spanish got their deficit reduction timetable rescheduled by refusing the existing one. We need to grow a pair.

Sand · 02-06-2012 11:34pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't recall him claiming that.

The carping on about "lying" is a bit tiresome, is all. Politicians tell us what we want to hear so that we'll elect them. This is our fault, because we won't elect politicians who don't tell us what we want to hear.

If we want politicians not to lie to us, we're going to need to start electing politicians who tell us the truth during election campaigns.

LAWL

So, I remember Kenny running on campaign of reform and honest, transparent government. You dont.

Yet you you talk about "us" and "we". There is no "us" and "we". You cant even remember what Kenny said last time out. So how are you going to start electing the politicians who tell "us" the truth during election campaigns? The next time you see Kenny talking about honest, decent and transparent government you will think its the first time. Just like all the rest of the people you're talking down to about using their vote wisely to elect politicians who tell us the truth, blaming them for politicians lying to them.

oscarBravo · 03-06-2012 10:49am

Sand wrote: »

So, I remember Kenny running on campaign of reform and honest, transparent government. You dont.

Actually, I do, but that's not what you said. You can claim it's what you meant, but if you're going to argue with me for disagreeing with what you said instead of what you meant, save yourself the trouble.

Yet you you talk about "us" and "we". There is no "us" and "we". You cant even remember what Kenny said last time out.

I can. He didn't say what you claimed he did. It's a little bit ironic to try to win an argument about the validity of electoral promises by saying one thing at the start of the argument, and something else later.

So how are you going to start electing the politicians who tell "us" the truth during election campaigns? The next time you see Kenny talking about honest, decent and transparent government you will think its the first time. Just like all the rest of the people you're talking down to about using their vote wisely to elect politicians who tell us the truth, blaming them for politicians lying to them.

I don't expect politicians to tell us the unvarnished truth. I cynically expect to be lied to to a varying degree. I elect politicians based on what I think they are likely to do, rather than slavishly expecting them to fulfil their every campaign promise. And then I don't carp on about campaign promises being lies, as if it comes as some sort of surprise that a politician is unable to deliver on everything he's promised.

The Waltzing Consumer · 03-06-2012 11:06am

tayto lover wrote: »

“Our purpose now must be to redouble our efforts, to work even harder to deliver our plan to get Ireland working.

“These tough times require straight talk, so we will continue to be straight and honest with the people.”

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Fine-Gael-convention-hears-Enda-Kenny-vow-to-complete-Irish-economys-transformation-145474235.html#ixzz1wd0YHc1f

I suppose its only a coincidence that it was dated April 1st but he did vow several time to clean up politics. He obviously didn't keep his word just like he didn't keep his election promises.

Yes, I was hoping that within two months of making a speech, all of politics would be cleaned up and the economy fixed. Are you serious?

Are you seriously suggesting Enda ignore due process, law, legislation and just throw anyone who has any questions raised about them out of politics or in jail?

What exactly did you want done within two months? Did you want some purge or something? I am genuinely curious about this. Did you want legislation, people thrown in jail, people rounded up and sent to Gulags without trials or evidence?

tayto lover · 03-06-2012 11:49am

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Yes, I was hoping that within two months of making a speech, all of politics would be cleaned up and the economy fixed. Are you serious?

Are you seriously suggesting Enda ignore due process, law, legislation and just throw anyone who has any questions raised about them out of politics or in jail?

What exactly did you want done within two months? Did you want some purge or something? I am genuinely curious about this. Did you want legislation, people thrown in jail, people rounded up and sent to Gulags without trials or evidence?

Two months my a***. Sand is right. Kenny was making promises all through his election campaign. He was going to straighten out all that was wrong with politics.
Where is the end to cronyism ?
Where is the end to advisers pay rises ?
Where is the end to not another cent into Anglo ?
Where was the re-negotiation of the Banking bail out ?
Non closure or running down of hospitals or services - ask the people of Roscommon for a start.
Etc etc etc.

K-9 · 03-06-2012 12:16pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I elect politicians based on what I think they are likely to do, rather than slavishly expecting them to fulfil their every campaign promise. And then I don't carp on about campaign promises being lies, as if it comes as some sort of surprise that a politician is unable to deliver on everything he's promised.

Seems a pretty reasonable thing to do in a country that has coalitions!

The Waltzing Consumer · 03-06-2012 12:33pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Two months my a***. Sand is right. Kenny was making promises all through his election campaign. He was going to straighten out all that was wrong with politics.
Where is the end to cronyism ?
Where is the end to advisers pay rises ?
Where is the end to not another cent into Anglo ?
Where was the re-negotiation of the Banking bail out ?
Non closure or running down of hospitals or services - ask the people of Roscommon for a start.
Etc etc etc.

Alright, well, if this is true, it sucks, so if you can kindly link all these promises to their manifesto, it would be helpful:

http://www.finegael2011.com/pdf/Fine%20Gael%20Manifesto%20low-res.pdf

Also, if you could link all these "lies" to the premise of a coalition rather then single-party government, that would also be great. It's your argument, back it up with some sources and links.

tayto lover · 03-06-2012 12:54pm

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Alright, well, if this is true, it sucks, so if you can kindly link all these promises to their manifesto, it would be helpful:

http://www.finegael2011.com/pdf/Fine%20Gael%20Manifesto%20low-res.pdf

Also, if you could link all these "lies" to the premise of a coalition rather then single-party government, that would also be great. It's your argument, back it up with some sources and links.

Not a chance that I would go to the trouble to do that for you.
Do you not remember the promises yourself about Roscommon hospital, about a cap on wages, about not another cent into Anglo. Even their Five Point Plan ? Or are you choosing to do what comes naturally like turning a blind eye to it all. That would just confirm what I think about F.G. and their faithful followers i.e F. F. Mark 2. Let us just continue as normal in Ireland. It's all o.k. as long as we are in power.

The Waltzing Consumer · 03-06-2012 1:52pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Not a chance that I would go to the trouble to do that for you.
Do you not remember the promises yourself about Roscommon hospital, about a cap on wages, about not another cent into Anglo. Even their Five Point Plan ? Or are you choosing to do what comes naturally like turning a blind eye to it all. That would just confirm what I think about F.G. and their faithful followers i.e F. F. Mark 2. Let us just continue as normal in Ireland. It's all o.k. as long as we are in power.

I am not turning a blind eye. You are the person arguing the point about broken promises. The burden of proof is on you to back it up, this is a pretty standard expectation in this forum and in any debate, why would someone who questions your point have to do all your work for you? Since you say you have no interest in doing that, well, you concede your argument.

tayto lover · 03-06-2012 2:11pm

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I am not turning a blind eye. You are the person arguing the point about broken promises. The burden of proof is on you to back it up, this is a pretty standard expectation in this forum and in any debate, why would someone who questions your point have to do all your work for you? Since you say you have no interest in doing that, well, you concede your argument.

I'm afraid my computer skills at not up to standard to put all those pieces together. I'm new to computers. But those claims are true and i believe you are well aware of that. I actually voted for F.G. as i thought they would actually do what they promised i.e. take the me fein-ism and corruption out of Irish politics but i was wrong. They are just every bit as bad as they shower they replaced. I believe my argument is totally correct too.

The Waltzing Consumer · 03-06-2012 3:04pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm afraid my computer skills at not up to standard to put all those pieces together. I'm new to computers. But those claims are true and i believe you are well aware of that. I actually voted for F.G. as i thought they would actually do what they promised i.e. take the me fein-ism and corruption out of Irish politics but i was wrong. They are just every bit as bad as they shower they replaced. I believe my argument is totally correct too.

Well, I would disagree but I understand where you are coming from. I think any essential change to the way we govern is a long term plan and not something that would be changed just over a year in office. It is also worth noting that although I dislike manifesto's, the mandate given to this current Government was a coalition and that meant the public did not want one FG manifesto or one Labour manifesto, they wanted a compromise on both.

I also think we should have this discussion in three year's time and then we can see a better picture of how this Government have performed.

Why is Kenny refusing an honest debate?

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