Why is Kenny refusing an honest debate?

Qualz

The Irish clearly want to leave their children with a future that is not burdened by a huge debt incurred by their parents. It seems that Kenny does not share this concern. So why is he shying away from an honest open debate on television? I wonder when his evasiveness will finally evaporate? Sooner than most observers think.

Hootanany

Because he is a Bufoon and cannot talk off the cuff.

Coriolanus

Given their carry on during the presidential debate the last thing we can expect is a fair and honest debate.
And no, I can't stand gallagher but the end doesn't always justify the means, an ethical position sf has always had trouble with.

Patser

Hootanany wrote: »

Because he is a Bufoon and cannot talk off the cuff.

Don't agree woth the Bufoon part of this statment but Kenny is never the most comfortable in a debate and in this case, he probably ffels it's not worth the risk. It's looking like it'll be a Yes vote (although maybe not as comfortably as it looked last week), so why risk doing a big debate where a gaffe might blow it.

On top of that it deprives Gerry Adams the chance to be seen as the leader of the opposition (since FF are backing the vote). For Adams he has little to lose, a bit like a losing gambler calling 'double or quits' when so far down he's lost already, whereas for Kenny it's all risk. Enda seems to be better playing a manager role, organising things and the like rather than as a foot soldier in the cut and thrust of a debate - he sucked in the leaders debates before the election too (remember him getting under Michael Martin's skin by continuously repeating the 5 point plan mantra and reciting FF's failures, rather than really debating any point).

All that said though I've been impressed with this approach on Enda's, he's assigned Ministers to do their jobs and only really steps in when they've messed up.

steelcityblues

Because he knows deep down that he is not a good debater.

oscarBravo

The problem with a debate on a fairly technical subject like this is that the "winner" is generally decreed to be the side that makes the most noise in the most confident and assertive manner. That noise doesn't have to have any basis whatsoever in fact, reason or logic.

I've yet to see a TV debate on a referendum that left anyone feeling particularly enlightened afterwards.

Hootanany

steelcityblues wrote: »

Because he knows deep down that he is not a good debater.

Oh he is a Master.

steelcityblues

Hootanany wrote: »

Oh he is a Master.

Master of what? Making Noonan look like he is the Taoiseach, and not him?

brownacid

steelcityblues wrote: »

Master of what? Making Noonan look like he is the Taoiseach, and not him?

Enda kenny is a masterdebater

meglome

I agree entirely with what Patser and oscarBravo have said.

Also I have no idea where this idea come from that Edna Kenny has to debate it in the first place. One of the main roles of a manager is to delegate. It's really bizarre to me that the no camp appoint him leader of the Yes campaign and then demand he debate it. Anything else they feel it's their right to decide?

nacimroc

Because he ends up answering questions that have nothing to do with the treaty!

Its just like the NO campaigners during Lisbon treaty. The min wage went to €1.47 and abortions on every street corner ever since ??

People just make up crap and expect others to debate about it. If the opposition were asking proper questions like 'where is the option for a stimulus package' etc he might join them.

He is right not to give a voice to people acting in their own best interest and not in the countries!

AND....he is terrible at debates!

PCPhoto

I firmly believe that Enda is afraid of damaging any chance the yes camp have - no doubt that Sinn Fein have an ace up their sleeve and would use it at any televised debate, Kenny may or may not know what they have up their sleeve but either way avoiding the opportunity to ruin the chances.

its a simple tactic to avoid any debate and hope to get the result instead of going out and getting egg on your face because of something silly that you couldn't deal with ?

given other recent "gaffs" by member of the yes campaign there are a lot of questions which I would like answered....the most important one :

Will Enda Kenny resign as Taoiseach if he fails to pass the treaty ?

I do think that before the next set of elections ALL politicians should be forced to sign a declaration that they will resign without any financial remuneration if they cannot achieve on their election promises

Seth Brundle

What benefit will a debate bring? Is it so that many can decide which way to vote based on the nicest shirt and tie?

Hootanany

kbannon wrote: »

What benefit will a debate bring? Is it so that many can decide which way to vote based on the nicest shirt and tie?

No who is telling the truth or waiting to get the great Euro gig in the future.

oscarBravo

Hootanany wrote: »

No who is telling the truth...

A debate will decide this, how?

...or waiting to get the great Euro gig in the future.

What does that even mean?

shootermacg

kbannon wrote: »

What benefit will a debate bring? Is it so that many can decide which way to vote based on the nicest shirt and tie?

For a mod your attitude is sick. While you have the right to an opinion, you are certainly milking that right.

christmas2012

i wouldnt have imagined enda kenny coming out the best of that vincent browne interview he would have got a right grilling..

Wider Road

meglome wrote: »

I agree entirely with what Patser and oscarBravo have said.

Also I have no idea where this idea come from that Edna Kenny has to debate it in the first place. One of the main roles of a manager is to delegate. It's really bizarre to me that the no camp appoint him leader of the Yes campaign and then demand he debate it. Anything else they feel it's their right to decide?

Enda isn't a manager, he's our Taoiseach.
He should have debated Gerry Adams with Ursula Halligan in the chair. Enda would have got on fine against Adams, IMO.

meglome

Wider Road wrote: »

Enda isn't a manager, he's our Taoiseach.
He should have debated Gerry Adams with Ursula Halligan in the chair. Enda would have got on fine against Adams, IMO.

If he isn't a manager is it his job to do it all himself?

I have no doubt that Enda Kenny would be able for Gerry Adams but quite honestly I cannot see how anything good could come from the debate.

Seth Brundle

shootermacg wrote: »

For a mod your attitude is sick. While you have the right to an opinion, you are certainly milking that right.

I'm not a mod in this forum but nonetheless I fail to see how my attitude is sick, especially because debates tend to end up as who came accross best as opposed to who made the best points. Also, attire is discussed in the media following these charades.
Give my point a decent rebuttal then. Prove me wrong.

Wider Road

meglome wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

Enda isn't a manager, he's our Taoiseach.
He should have debated Gerry Adams with Ursula Halligan in the chair. Enda would have got on fine against Adams, IMO.

If he isn't a manager is it his job to do it all himself?

I have no doubt that Enda Kenny would be able for Gerry Adams but quite honestly I cannot see how anything good could come from the debate.

I love your line and I quote "If he isn't a manager is it his job to do it all himself". Enda isn't a Manager, he's our Taoiseach, the LEADER of our country. It's not his job to do it all himself, as you say. It's his job to LEAD by example and not to manage. Don't forget that he has refused Vincent Browne and Ursula Halligan to a Live Debate. No Leadership there, IMO. Enda chose for some strange reason to run away.

Einhard

Wider Road wrote: »

I love your line and I quote "If he isn't a manager is it his job to do it all himself". Enda isn't a Manager, he's our Taoiseach, the LEADER of our country. It's not his job to do it all himself, as you say. It's his job to LEAD by example and not to manage. Don't forget that he has refused Vincent Browne and Ursula Halligan to a Live Debate. No Leadership there, IMO. Enda chose for some strange reason to run away.

He's travelled up and down the country, had eggs thrown at him, been spat at, and generally abused by some proponents of the No campaign over the past few weeks. I fail to see how that constitutes "running away". Debates mean very little. They are usually just shallow affairs, without any real substance, dealing with peripheral issues, and decided not on the content but on the performance. Kenny isn't particularly good at that side of politics, and thus doesn't wish to risk a potentially damagaing sideshow- and I can't really say I blame him.

A debate would add precious little to the understanding of the Treaty, and as I mentioned in another thread, if you need a leader's debate to make up your mind on an issue for which there is an incredible amount of information already available, then you probably shouldn'e be voting in the first place.

Cracker_Jack

There is little doubt that Kenny is a tin-eared narcissist.

He doesn't seem too realize that he was elected only because "it was their way or Frankfurt's way", not because of any apparent experience or skills he may have possessed. His timing was excellent, following the animosities directed against Brian Lenihan and the desire for a fresh start. His handlers also ran a very manipulated campaign with the media and public, in their enthusiasm for a new government, willing to overlook the obvious flaws.

Enda Kenny is a terrible taoiseach, and is bad to the point where it's not clear how he could be worse. History will record him as both a milestone and a millstone, and we can only hope he can not do too much further damage before his four years are up.

StupidLikeAFox

Cracker_Jack wrote: »

He doesn't seem too realize that he was elected only because "it was their way or Frankfurt's way"

Theres also the fact that he was the leader of the party who got the most votes. People knew when they were voting for Fine Gael that Enda would be Taoiseach and still voted for them, so you can really argue with that. Who would you have picked in the last GE instead?


OT, Im not too fussed that he isnt debating. There has been plenty of debate around the treaty and the Government has been well represented, so I dont see the point in trotting Enda out for show when he has a cabinet there that can do just as good, or if not better. If the reason he isnt is that he isnt good at debating, so what?

seamus

Cracker_Jack wrote: »

He doesn't seem too realize that he was elected only because "it was their way or Frankfurt's way"

Odd, I thought he was elected Taoiseach because he was the leader of the party who got the largest majority in the last election. Now you're telling me that he was appointed by the Germans? Why wasn't I informed? Get an International oversight committee in here, stat!

Enda Kenny is a terrible taoiseach, and is bad to the point where it's not clear how he could be worse.

You might clear up for me how he has been a "terrible taoiseach"? Sure he's a bit of a wet rag and a little too parochial in many respects, but he has yet to be dragged up in front of a tribunal for dodgy dealings, be arrested for smuggling arms for the IRA, or do a national radio interview while hammered.

As a Taoiseach he's not an outstanding statesman, but he's a hard worker in is defence. Yet another great stroke by the FF chancers was to convince people that they guys we voted in less than two years ago are somehow to blame for everything.

dabestman1

Wider Road wrote: »

Enda isn't a manager, he's our Taoiseach.
He should have debated Gerry Adams with Ursula Halligan in the chair. Enda would have got on fine against Adams, IMO.

Adams would trounce kenny in any debate. FACT

PopeBuckfastXVI

dabestman1 wrote: »

Adams would trounce kenny in any debate. FACT

I believe that's very true. Adams would trounce Kenny in any debate, on any topic, from any side.

That should tell you all you need to know about the worth of debates.

Cracker_Jack

The yes campaign have lost their credibility. Two days before the referendum, the leader is nowhere in sight. When someone is leader (i.e. Kenny), they either take responsibility or else come clean.

bpb101

simple op ,
Last debate with Kenny

Mance Rayder

There is absolutely no need to debate the treaty. The treaty is available in full to be read by anyone. People should vote based on the content of the treaty NOT on the performance of campaigners in a debate. If any person does not understand the treaty then that person should abstain from voting.

Cracker_Jack

Where are all these Kenny lovers coming from?

View

Cracker_Jack wrote: »

The yes campaign have lost their credibility. Two days before the referendum, the leader is nowhere in sight. When someone is leader (i.e. Kenny), they either take responsibility or else come clean.

Who said Kenny is the leader of the Yes campaign? Apart from you that is...

meglome

Cracker_Jack wrote: »

Where are all these Kenny lovers coming from?

Disagreeing with you makes people a Kenny lover? news to me

the_syco

I don't see the point for a debate, because if the Lisbon treaty was anything to go by, the No side will bring up a couple of ludicrous sound bites, and make Enda look stupid not knowing some bizarre fact that probably has nothing to do with the Treaty. They seem very good at the art of misdirection in debates.

Paparazzo

the_syco wrote: »

I don't see the point for a debate, because if the Lisbon treaty was anything to go by, the No side will bring up a couple of ludicrous sound bites, and make Enda look stupid not knowing some bizarre fact that probably has nothing to do with the Treaty. They seem very good at the art of misdirection in debates.

Lisbon turned into a farce. The Yes camp ended up getting dragged down to the level of the No camp and had to fight bullshít with bullshít.

antoobrien

I'm trying to figure this out, and nothing in the (currently) 35 posts indicates why Enda Kenny should debate this.

Isn't Lucinda Creighton the government minister/super junior for Europe - so isn't she the point person for this?

So please, will somebody give me a good reason why Enda should debate something that is strictly speaking somebody else's remit

N.b. He's the FG leader/taoiseach does not count - the reason(s) for any answer have to be explained.

Black Swan

MOD REMINDER:
A few poster comments are beginning to slide in the direction of getting "too personal." Please focus on making meaningful contributions to the thread topic, and not each other.

C14N

Cracker_Jack wrote: »

Where are all these Kenny lovers coming from?

Well when you go and slander a leader who was elected based on a majority vote, you might expect people to stick up for him maybe?

The Waltzing Consumer

Cracker_Jack wrote: »

There is little doubt that Kenny is a tin-eared narcissist.

I really do wonder what this adds to this thread?

Wild Bill

Because he is a (politically) illegitimate undemocratic Quisling who has reneged on his mandate? :cool:

Wild Bill

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I really do wonder what this adds to this thread?

It adds refreshing honesty.

oscarBravo

Wild Bill wrote: »

It adds refreshing honesty.

...or gratuitous abuse. In other words, nothing of value.

Ronin247

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm trying to figure this out, and nothing in the (currently) 35 posts indicates why Enda Kenny should debate this.

Isn't Lucinda Creighton the government minister/super junior for Europe - so isn't she the point person for this?

So please, will somebody give me a good reason why Enda should debate something that is strictly speaking somebody else's remit

N.b. He's the FG leader/taoiseach does not count - the reason(s) for any answer have to be explained.

Enda is the elected leader of the majority party in our elected government.His, will/will not be the signature on the treaty, and if he cannot stand up to a dose of B.S. from Gerry Adams and Vincent Browne then he should not sign us up for something he cannot defend.

Every politician who is anybody has debated this referendum on radio or TV, why should Enda hide from it?It is a cowardly move,but what do we expect from politicians.

Sand

Someone having to make a case for this treaty in a live TV debate would need to be an amazing public speaker and debater.

Kenny is not either of those things. He cant make the case for this Treaty. His likely opponents know it. He knows it. His colleagues and supporters know it.

The main job of FG handlers is to keep Kenny away from microphones, cameras, and indeed any form of media because it can only make things worse.

meglome

Sand wrote: »

Someone having to make a case for this treaty in a live TV debate would need to be an amazing public speaker and debater.

Kenny is not either of those things. He cant make the case for this Treaty. His likely opponents know it. He knows it. His colleagues and supporters know it.

The main job of FG handlers is to keep Kenny away from microphones, cameras, and indeed any form of media because it can only make things worse.

Agreed which is why the no camp elected him 'leader of the yes campaign' and then insisted he debate on it. Most of these debates are utterly pointless anyway.

Ozymandius2011

I think if the treaty doesn't go through the chickens (no pun intended) will come home to roost on this one.

meglome

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I think if the treaty doesn't go through the chickens (no pun intended) will come home to roost on this one.

Sadly they just might, though I fear not in the way the no campaign believe.

Wild Bill

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I think if the treaty doesn't go through the chickens (no pun intended) will come home to roost on this one.

The chickens are coming home to roost anyway; something neither the "yes" or "no" sides are keen to point out.

The notion that a vote either way will keep the chickens at bay is daft. (And, btw, the roosts will be filling up with chickens across Europe, not just in Ireland)

But voting "yes", in the hope of avoiding the inevitable by tossing away our sovereignty, is the daftest thing to do.

I'm going with the least daft solution. A debate would have shown Kenny as clearly on the most daft side.

Which would be a greater service to the nation than the technical merits of whatever nonsense either himself or Mr Adams came up with.

Thus there would be great value in this particular debate.

Something Kenny's handler's were well aware of and the reason he chickened out.

antoobrien

Ronin247 wrote: »

Enda is the elected leader of the majority party in our elected government.His, will/will not be the signature on the treaty, and if he cannot stand up to a dose of B.S. from Gerry Adams and Vincent Browne then he should not sign us up for something he cannot defend.

Every politician who is anybody has debated this referendum on radio or TV, why should Enda hide from it?It is a cowardly move,but what do we expect from politicians.

So no valid reason then (there is somebody there do do this job, so he's the leader is not a valid reason).

The opposition want him debating this because it stops him from doing his main job of managing the running of the country. They want him in this because it makes their lives easier later.

Though I don't like him I have to way: Well done Enda for not getting distracted from the running of the country to play political games withe the opposition to the treaty.

telecaster

I have a deal more respect for Kenny now than prior to his appointment as Taoiseach. I don't agree with every decision he and his government has made, but by accepting that tv debating is not his strongest suit he has shown a tactical aptitude and humility which is laudable.

There are many ways to lead.

I'll take considered decisions through consulatation, thorough analysis and re-analysis, over off-the-cuff debating smarts any day when it comes to anything of importance.

This shouldn't be showbiz.

Wild Bill

Ireland's rejection in Thursday's referendum wouldn't derail the treaty, but would nonetheless deliver a blow to EU leaders on the treaty's legitimacy, and provide more support to critics of the EU's current austerity drive.

Today's Wall St Journal.


So if you want Euro-wide recovery policies instead of the current clinically insane and grotesquely inappropriate German/ECB policy, vote NO to the Suicide Pact tomorrow.