How to get started?

goz83 · 07-12-2015 12:57am #1

Hi all. First time posting in this category. Due to a back injury, my love of driving has taken a back seat and i need to aim for new hobbies when I am on my feet again. A friend of mine is planning to get a rifle and I would love to get into shooting too, but never went about doing anything more than getting a bb pistol.

I would actually like to have a rifle, pistol and shotgun, but would start with a cz455 lr having looked through the threads. I would be using the rifle for target practice, but would like to have the option to hunt vermin if given the opportunity. So, my understanding is that I would need to:

Get a firearms competency cert.
Join a gun club.
Get a gun safe and install it.
Find a suitable rifle and pay deposit if applicable.
Complete and return the application form.

Are these steps correct, or am i missing anything?
How long does a typical application take to go through in Dublin?
I assume each gun requires a separate application and fee?
How much ammo is too much ammo for the form? I was thinking maybe put down 1500 rounds. Too little, or too much?
If I decide to add a second, or third gun, would I have more chance if concealing the safe in a wall? I plan to do this anyway if i can find a suitable safe to fit a space i have in mind.

Sorry about the newbie questions. I just want to make sure I go about it the right way.

Cass · 07-12-2015 2:15am

goz83 wrote: »

Are these steps correct, or am i missing anything?

You pretty much have it, but to recap in short you need;

Look around for a rifle that suits
Pick one and pay a small deposit (5-10%)
Buy and install a safe
Have range mebership, gun club membership or land permissions.
Get and an FCA1 (application form) along with:
- Letter of sale from dealer with firearm details
- Photos x 2
- Referees to vouch for your character x 2
- Medical details
- Range details including membership number and copy of membership card or in the case of a firearm for hunting land permissions or club membership (gun club, not a range).
- Seperate sheet of paper with an explanation as to why you want this firearm plus explanations for a mod (silencer) if you choose to get one.
- All secure acomodation requirements (gun safe) in place as there is a box you must tick to say you have them in place.
Submit it the FCA1 to your local Garda station, and wait.
Receive license, pay fee at the post office and upon receipt of your license go collect your new rifle.

How long does a typical application take to go through in Dublin?

The application can take from 2 weeks to 3 months, and some have even waited up to a year for their license. It is meant to be done within a 3 month time period, but this does not always happen depending on which Garda district you are in.

I assume each gun requires a separate application and fee?

Yup. Each gun requires it's own license and you must complete the application process each time.

How much ammo is too much ammo for the form? I was thinking maybe put down 1500 rounds. Too little, or too much?

There are rough guidelines as to how much is enough. To request a high amount of ammo you must show good reason for needing such a high amount. Target shooting is the top reason, but as this can only be done, legally, on a range you must produce range membership among other reason to show you need a high amount.

Other reasons can be:

Empty (fired) casings are treated the same as live rounds as per the Firearms Act, 1925 where it states that "ammunition for a firearm is any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition", with component part being the bullet, the casing, the propellant or the primer. So my license must allow me to have a high enough limit to have both live and fired rounds in my possession.
I regularly take part in target competitions and actively attend target ranges for practice. As a result of this I can go through a large quantity of rounds in a short period of time.
Buying bulk rounds of ammunition to reduce trips to dealer and for cost implications.
Distance to dealer being excessive & inconvenient.

If I decide to add a second, or third gun, would I have more chance if concealing the safe in a wall? I plan to do this anyway if i can find a suitable safe to fit a space i have in mind.

Where the safe is, will not be as important as it's security. Obviously the more hidden the safe is the better, but they'll look at your overall security rather than one aspect. Also there is a scale of security you must meet depending on the number of guns you have. The more guns, the more security you need. Also these measurements are a minimum, meaning you can be made get much higher security based on where you live, etc. The security requirements are:

Firearms (Secure Accommodation) Regulations 2009:

|Type and number of firearms| Secure accommodation standard

1 |One non-restricted shot-gun.| The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.

2 |One restricted firearm or three or fewer non-restricted firearms. |Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.

3 |Two restricted firearms, or more than three non-restricted firearms. | Each firearm shall be stored in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure. The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621.

4 |Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place. | In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority, which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Siochana. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority, and supported with GSM Mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities.

Sorry about the newbie questions. I just want to make sure I go about it the right way.

No need for apologies. We all started somewhere and it's better to ask.

goz83 · 07-12-2015 6:50pm

What is the situation with private sales? I may look to purchase from a boardsie if I can, but wouldn't fancy paying a deposit and then having to wait an unknown time before knowing if I get a license, or not.

Cass · 07-12-2015 7:00pm

goz83 wrote: »

What is the situation with private sales?

Same as buying from a dealer for the most part. Some details are slightly different, but if it comes to that it can be explained here.

I may look to purchase from a boardsie if I can, but wouldn't fancy paying a deposit and then having to wait an unknown time before knowing if I get a license, or not.

This is the same whether you're buying from a dealer or privately. You pay a deposit, apply, then wait. The time spent waiting is the same regardless of how you buy.

goz83 · 07-12-2015 9:40pm

I see. Is it a case of the vast majority of licenses are granted (assuming suitable gun is chosen and all the ducks are in a row with the application and storage) ?

I'm all good with regards to the law with not so much as a penalty point and the same goes for my family.

If there is a high number of rejections, i wouldn't want to go through the bother and expense of applying.

One more question? Would it be advisable to apply for one license and then wait to apply for the second, or would I be able to apply for a rifle and shotgun license at the same time? I wouldn't want anything to negatively impact my chances though.

Cass · 07-12-2015 9:46pm

goz83 wrote: »

I see. Is it a case of the vast majority of licenses are granted (assuming suitable gun is chosen and all the ducks are in a row with the application and storage) ?

Yes. It is down to character, previous history, etc. Once you are all good in that way then you get the license.

If there is a high number of rejections, i wouldn't want to go through the bother and expense of applying.

No idea. Nobody does except An Gardaí.

Would it be advisable to apply for one license and then wait to apply for the second, or would I be able to apply for a rifle and shotgun license at the same time?

Depends really.

The law says there is no limit on the amount of firearms or the frequency in which you can apply for them. However a certain degree of common sense is needed. IOW if you apply for 15 guns of various calibers all at once then your going to raise an eyebrow or two and have a lot of explaining to do.

However if you can show good reason for them there is no reason why you could not apply for both at the same time.

Luckysasha · 07-12-2015 9:58pm

I recently bought my first rifle a Cz 455 .22lr.this year. Great rifle for getting started. Basically I went to my local gun dealer and had a chat with him about what I wanted the gun for etc. I wanted it for pest control on our farm. A shotgun would normally be the preferred firearm for farm use but like yourself I have back and shoulder problems so the shotgun was out of the question due to recoil. The dealer I went to has a range so was I was able to try out a few rifles and I chose the Cz. Now this is why I recommend going to a dealer. He was able to put together a package deal for me for the rifle, safe, moderator, competency course and all the advice I needed to get on the road so to speak. I even sat down with him and filled out the paperwork for the license and he called our local Garda station to see when the Garda who deals with licenses would be on duty. The paperwork side of it was my biggest fear to be honest but it was all taken care of in no time with no hassle what so ever. I had my license in the post in two weeks from dropping the paperwork in with the Garda

goz83 · 08-12-2015 12:37am

Thanks guys. If I spotted a gun from a private seller that I liked, right here on the forum. What is the best way of going about a purchase. I have my eye on a couple, but would like to see a slightly better price on one I would buy, if deemed suitable.

I am also noticing that there are 5 and 10 mag capacities. Does this matter with regards to licensing? I noticed moderators need a mention alright.

Cass · 08-12-2015 12:48am

goz83 wrote: »

What is the best way of going about a purchase.

Contact the seller
Agree to meet in a safe and neutral place (gun shop or range)
Agree on a price
Leave a small deposit and agree terms on both the deposit and what occurs in the event of a refusal.
Get a receipt for the deposit with the outstanding balance
Apply for the license
Once the license is got meet the seller again in the shop or range
Produce your license as proof
Pay the balance
Off you go

I am also noticing that there are 5 and 10 mag capacities. Does this matter with regards to licensing?

No. Not in a bolt action. In a semi auto rimfire you can only have up to 10. Anything more than 10 and it's a restricted firearm.

I noticed moderators need a mention alright.

Yup. You need to tick the box in section 3.2 "Silencer" and provide reason(s) as to why you want/need it.

goz83 · 08-12-2015 12:55am

Thanks for all the help Cass. Super helpful. Appreciate it. If i have more questions, I know where to ask. Hopefully I have found myself a new hobbie, which may even be cheaper than the previous one

And thanks for your post too sasha. Good to think about the recoil.

Cass · 08-12-2015 12:55am

goz83 wrote: »

.......... which may even be cheaper than the previous one

Heh, heh. Give it time.

BattleCorp · 08-12-2015 1:48pm

goz83 wrote: »

Hopefully I have found myself a new hobbie, which may even be cheaper than the previous one

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You have to love the naivety with this one.

Only messing, best of luck with your new hobby passion.

goz83 · 08-12-2015 2:49pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You have to love the naivety with this one.

Only messing, best of luck with your new hobby passion.

May being a key word there. I was a keen member of the mitsubishi fto club and although I am not really a car person, i was passionate about the fto. At the time I purchased my third fto for about €1600 and spent the next year and thousands of euros getting it like new and making subtle modifications. Eventually, i stopped adding the costs. Great car.

See the history here. For anyone who likes cars, it's quite a story.

Thanks for the well wishes. I think I may have found myself an ideal rifle right here on the boards.

clivej · 08-12-2015 3:21pm

goz83 wrote: »

Hopefully I have found myself a new hobbie, which may even be cheaper than the previous one

That's what I said as well

:o
Welcome to THAT club.

At least you have $$$ knowledge from your last hobby

;)

A moderator will reduce felt recoil as well.

CZ 455 a good choice. Make sure to get a 30cm deep gun safe to take a scoped rifle. A 4 gun safe usually means shotguns and will only take 2, 3 at best, scoped rifles

goz83 · 08-12-2015 3:49pm

clivej wrote: »

That's what I said as well :o
Welcome to THAT club.

At least you have $$$ knowledge from your last hobby ;)

A moderator will reduce felt recoil as well.

CZ 455 a good choice. Make sure to get a 30cm deep gun safe to take a scoped rifle. A 4 gun safe usually means shotguns and will only take 2, 3 at best, scoped rifles

Actually, i'm looking at a ruger 77/22 here on the forum, which has a scope, bi-pod, case and some cleaning tools. I believe the same ammo can be used, which would keep running costs down. I have been in touch with the seller already. So far, it's the one I like best. Thanks for the heads up on the safe depth.

goz83 · 11-12-2015 8:27pm

OK, so I have my rifle picked out (as mentioned above). I am waiting for a date in January to join a local(ish) gun club and get the competency cert. I won't be physically fit enough until then anyway. In the mean time, I will have my eyes peeled for a shotgun and of course, a safe.

So, I filled in some of the FCA1. Regarding references, I don't know who to be putting in. I'm self employed and have been for years. I can't really think of people who could give genuine character references, other than my family, or friends, which I can't imagine being accepted. My OH suggested my accountant and my solicitor, but would that be recommended? They don't really know me all that well and haven't spent more than a few hours in my company.

With regards to medical history, I said I don't have physical or mental reason for not being able to carry/use a firearm. I did have a microdiscectomy a couple of weeks ago, but it shouldn't hinder me in the use of a firearm by the time January comes. This is actually one of the reasons I am now pursuing this sport, because driving means lots of sitting, which isn't good for the lower back.

I am also wondering about land permissions. If I get one land permission and then secure other permission elsewhere, do I just keep a written proof of this, or do I need to amend the license record? Aside from knocking doors, are there recommendations for getting permissions in the general north dublin area. Willing to go a little further afield if necessary when the time comes.

hexosan · 11-12-2015 10:36pm

References can be family members or friends. Stick the wife down as one.
The medical sections refers more to you been a nut job as apposed to having had surgery.
If you have gun club membership you don't need land permission and vise versa.

goz83 · 12-12-2015 12:29am

hexosan wrote: »

References can be family members or friends. Stick the wife down as one.
The medical sections refers more to you been a nut job as apposed to having had surgery.
If you have gun club membership you don't need land permission and vise versa.

What if the wife thinks i'm a nut job?

hehe. That's good so. Makes it easier.

I thought I needed land permissions if i intended on hunting. One question on the fca1 asks about wild life hunting, but if one, or the other works, that is better again.

Luckysasha · 12-12-2015 10:05am

As I said before probably your best bet is to join a range to get yourself started. That way they can handle the buying of the gun your looking at. Also organise the competency course and give you one to one tuition on using your rifle. I was lucky in so far as we have our own farm I can shoot on but the day I picked up my rifle I got an hour of range time with the owner and it was a great starting point. Maybe while your waiting for the license to come through etc you could visit your local range and do a bit of rifle shooting on an hourly basis. Just to get your eye in as such

goz83 · 12-12-2015 11:18am

Luckysasha wrote: »

As I said before probably your best bet is to join a range to get yourself started. That way they can handle the buying of the gun your looking at. Also organise the competency course and give you one to one tuition on using your rifle.

I intend to join the gun club in January. The competency test comes as part of the annual membership and I am waiting for a confirmation date. They say the earliest will be January 9th. I am buying my rifle from a boardsie, so I don't know what way the gun club could help with that???

Luckysasha wrote: »

Maybe while your waiting for the license to come through etc you could visit your local range and do a bit of rifle shooting on an hourly basis. Just to get your eye in as such

I am afraid I have to wait until January, as I first need to have a post op consultation with my surgeon, which should be the first week in January. I'm waiting on that date too!

Luckysasha · 12-12-2015 12:18pm

I only suggested getting some practice at the range as I know what it's like to recover from back surgery and most of the rifle range shooting is done from a sitting position. If your going on to someone's land to shoot believe me it can be tricky with a back problem. Hidden holes, ruts fences to cross etc. I'm not trying to put you off mate just giving you a heads up from someone who is in the same situation as yourself. I found shooting to be a great way of relaxing and de-stressing so by all means go for it. Best of luck with the consultant.

goz83 · 12-12-2015 3:42pm

I appreciate that. Although sitting is the worst right now

All in good time though.

goz83 · 22-12-2015 8:05pm

So far, it's been an interesting experience. I can definitely see the potential for decent spending on this.

I set my mind on getting a shotgun and a rifle and set my max budget for firearms at €1,000. I'm quite happy I managed to achieve this, finding the ruger 77/22 right here on boards and a benelli centro (thanks to cass) in Stakelums. I even splashed out on some ammo in anticipation for the day I (fingers crossed) get approved for a license.

I picked up a safe today and will have it installed soon. So, now I just need to join a club, get the comp cert, get land permission and apply for the license.

Question: if i only apply for target shooting now, is there any hassle in adding land permission for hunting at a later stage? I have no problem knocking doors, but haven't the foggiest idea of where to start.

BattleCorp · 22-12-2015 11:28pm

goz83 wrote: »

Question: if i only apply for target shooting now, is there any hassle in adding land permission for hunting at a later stage? I have no problem knocking doors, but haven't the foggiest idea of where to start.

I'd try and get a few permissions and apply for both hunting and target shooting at the same time. Much better to do that.

Cass · 23-12-2015 12:08am

You can tick both the hunting and target shooting boxes in section 4.2. For the target shooting you will need to supply membership details, but for hunting you'll have no permissions. I've yet to be asked for such permission letters when i provide my membership details, but if asked you could always say you intend to hunt with the guns when you get permission down the road, and as the law requires you to declare your intentions you ticked the hunting box in anticipation of getting the permissions.

Most likely if you tick both boxes, and provide the range membership details the hunting aspect or more specifically the permission letters may get overlooked.

goz83 · 23-12-2015 2:43am

I have one of the forms almost complete. I am just waiting on previous cert number for it.

On the separate sheet, I plan to write the following....but do feel free to recommend amendment. This letter is for the rifle application.

Dear Sir,

Please find below the additional information necessary to accurately complete the FCA1 form. I trust the provided information is comprehensive and will aid in an efficient and speedy processing of my firearms application. I can be contacted, should any clarification, or further information be required.

Additional Information in relation to section:

3.2
A silencer/moderator will be used when hunting game to reduce noise pollution.

A scope will be used for both target practice on the range and hunting game.

3.3
I have placed a deposit of €100 on the firearm with the intention of completing the purchase once a license is granted to me for the firearm.

3.5
In addition to the required secure storage requirements (in this case, being an INFAC 4 Firearm safe), my property is alarmed with a Siemens self-monitored alarm and there is remote access CCTV covering the front, rear and inside the property. The key to the Firearms safe will be stored in a separate safe for additional security and safety.

4.1
I have applied for a maximum amount of 1250 rounds, which will allow me to legally hold both live and spent ammunition until I can safely dispose of spent ammunition. I understand that any part of ammunition, including an empty shell, under the law, is considered ammunition and would therefore be included in the number of rounds I can legally hold under a license granted to me for this firearm. Should I require an amendment in the future, I will tender a written request for same.

If more information is required, I am happy to assist and can be contacted on snip.

Best Regards

Goz

I hear that delays are usually caused by incorrectly filled forms, so I want to get this all right.

BattleCorp · 23-12-2015 9:24am

goz83 wrote: »

A scope will be used for both target practice on the range and hunting game.

I wouldn't write anything on the form about scopes. The form is very misleading. That scope section only applies to night vision and thermal scopes. You don't need permission for ordinary telescopic scopes.

4.1
I have applied for a maximum amount of 1250 rounds, which will allow me to legally hold both live and spent ammunition until I can safely dispose of spent ammunition.

Personally I don't think you are looking for enough ammo. When you get into the target shooting, 1250 rounds won't last very long.

goz83 · 23-12-2015 11:04am

BattleCorp wrote: »

I wouldn't write anything on the form about scopes. The form is very misleading. That scope section only applies to night vision and thermal scopes. You don't need permission for ordinary telescopic scopes.

thanks, I will delete that.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Personally I don't think you are looking for enough ammo. When you get into the target shooting, 1250 rounds won't last very long.

Really? I would like to have about 2500, but I have been hearing that you can't really use your own ammo at the range, so a higher limit would not be accepted. When I met up with the current owner of the rifle, I noticed the ammo allowance was only 500.

Maybe someone can clarify the situation with using your own ammo at the range? I did buy ammo hoping to do exactly this.

Luckysasha · 23-12-2015 11:18am

My understanding of the ammo allowance is that it is the amount of ammo you can purchase or have in your possession at any one time. In theory if you have an allowance of 500 rounds for your .22 rifle, you can buy 500 rounds shoot them and return to the shop an hour later and buy another 500 rounds.

goz83 · 23-12-2015 11:47am

Luckysasha wrote: »

My understanding of the ammo allowance is that it is the amount of ammo you can purchase or have in your possession at any one time. In theory if you have an allowance of 500 rounds for your .22 rifle, you can buy 500 rounds shoot them and return to the shop an hour later and buy another 500 rounds.

Yes, but it wouldn't be practical unless you lived right beside a gun shop. Which brings me to another question. What are you supposed to do with spent brass?

Cass · 23-12-2015 12:15pm

You want to be as detailed as possible, but without writing a novel. On a separate piece of paper, labelled "Additional Information" fill in the following:

Section 2.1 - Previous Address: I have lived as 3 addresses my entire life. One was before i was old enough to own a firearm so i disregard this and supply my last address and this one. If you move around a lot then provide the last two.
Section 2.5 - Proof of Competence: Please see attached competence certificate (then give in a copy of the cert)
Section 3.2 - Suppressor: I am seeking authorisation for a sound suppressor for the following reasons
- To aid sound reduction of the firearm when used around livestock and bloodstock.
- To aid sound reduction so as to not alarm people in the vicinity.
- Unsafe practice of wearing suitable hearing protection while stalking / hunting
- Protection of personal hearing
- Improved accuracy therefore aiding with the humane dispatch of prey due to reduced recoil etc
- Ideal for vermin control.
Section 3.5 - Secure Storage: List your security measures as you have done.
Section 4.1 - Amount of Ammo: I am requesting 1,500 (example) rounds of ammunition for the following reasons:
- Empty (fired) casings are treated the same as live rounds as per the Firearms Act, 1925 where it states that "ammunition for a firearm is any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition", with component part being the bullet, the casing, the propellant or the primer. So my license must allow me to have a high enough limit to have both live and fired rounds in my possession.
- I regularly take part in target competitions and actively attend target ranges for practice. As a result of this I can go through a large quantity of rounds in a short period of time.
- Buying bulk rounds of ammunition to reduce trips to dealer and for cost implications.
- Distance to dealer being excessive & inconvenient.
Section 4.2 - Reason for Gun: The firearm will be used for sporting target shooting at the **Range name** range in **location** , hunting of wild animals/birds during the open seasons in accordance with the 1976 Wildlife Act, and the control/culling of vermin.

For the following sections, just fill them in, but for the most part extra information is not necessary:

Section 2.1 - All the personal information stuff
Section 2.2
Section 2.3
Section 2.4
Section 3.1
Section 3.3
Section 4.1 - Language bit
Section 4.3 - Authorised range bit
Section 5.1 - Tick yes (no need for licenses as your firearms license covers you and you're not shooting deer)

Ignore sections:

3.4
4.4
5.2

For your first licenses you need to be as complete as possible, but for any additional licenses over the years you'll find some of the above does not need to be filled in.

goz83 wrote: »

Maybe someone can clarify the situation with using your own ammo at the range? I did buy ammo hoping to do exactly this.

I've never heard of a range "forcing" people to use ammo they sell. Seems odd.

As for empty brass, dump it at the range, or if out hunting collect it, bring it home and dump it at the range next time you're there.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County