School patronage

expectationlost · 04-11-2015 2:09pm

Schools forced to cut Catholic classes http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/schools-forced-to-cut-catholic-classes-34168853.html No plan to cut religion teaching time at denominational schools http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/no-plan-to-cut-religion-teaching-time-at-denominational-schools-1.2416680

Huntergonzo · 04-11-2015 2:15pm

Bit of talk about religion in schools on the radio this morning with both sides weighing in but in fairness it has to be said, our primary education system is a highly discriminatory, unethical, embarrassing shambles.

One particularly stupid, invalid argument that keeps coming up is that 'well many parents want their child taught Catholicism in schools'.......yeah because they were indoctrinated with it as well and so were their parents and their grandparents etc etc, very obvious pattern here. By all means have it in private schools though, but not in public schools.

Anyway I don't think parents should put their religious or non religious opinions on their children, but I'd have at least some understanding of the above argument if the parents were taught about all religions amd none in school and came to their decision independently.

recedite · 04-11-2015 9:25pm

Akrasia wrote: »

'Faith formation' has no part in compulsory primary education. It should be completely replaced with something that teaches about different religions (and none) and separates ethics from religion.

It looks like the start of some degree of separation though. There is a constitutional requirement for the state to ensure a minimum level of "moral" education at primary school, but this requirement has traditionally been deemed to be satisfied by allowing the patrons free rein to teach their own versions of religion, for a minimum of 2.5 hours per week. But that was actually a minimum time spent at religious faith formation. Which is not the same as a minimum level of moral education.

If this new program becomes part of a standard curriculum, it has the advantage of being the same curriculum in all schools regardless of patronage, thereby fulfilling the constitutional requirement. Once that principle has been established, the old faith formation classes become an optional extra put on by the individual school. So even if specific faith formation religious classes do occur during school hours, they could end up being at the expense of other core subjects. Hence the mention of "curriculum overload". But that "overload" would be optional just like the French or Spanish classes that some 6th classes get. So not actually curriculum overload at all, because the religious indoctrination would be outside the curriculum. That's my understanding of it anyway.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-11-2015 11:09pm

expectationlost wrote: »

the government is refusing to build more schools unless there is general population demand, (or in new build estates etc)

this is the point everyone is arguing over.

Quinn et al spoofing about how the problem is a shortage of school places and if only the mean old Dept Ed would build more schools etc etc

It's not - ultimately every kid finds a place and the Dept Ed can direct a school to admit a child. But what happens is the non-catholics get shunted off to the out-of-the-way, less desirable schools. Meanwhile the catholic kids have the pick of their local RC schools, non-local RC schools and of course can take up ET places on the same basis as anyone else, too, so they have it every which way.

The issue in places like Dublin 6 is that the schools in the area are seen as desirable, children of the 'correct' religion from outside the area are allowed under the current rules to come in and displace local non/minority religion kids.

Unfortunately nobody mentioned this at all.

expectationlost · 05-11-2015 12:11am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Quinn et al spoofing about how the problem is a shortage of school places and if only the mean old Dept Ed would build more schools etc etc

It's not - ultimately every kid finds a place and the Dept Ed can direct a school to admit a child. But what happens is the non-catholics get shunted off to the out-of-the-way, less desirable schools. Meanwhile the catholic kids have the pick of their local RC schools, non-local RC schools and of course can take up ET places on the same basis as anyone else, too, so they have it every which way.

The issue in places like Dublin 6 is that the schools in the area are seen as desirable, children of the 'correct' religion from outside the area are allowed under the current rules to come in and displace local non/minority religion kids.

Unfortunately nobody mentioned this at all.

like to see some stats re that

Hotblack Desiato · 05-11-2015 12:51am

some stats re what?

Absolam · 05-11-2015 5:47am

Huntergonzo wrote: »

One particularly stupid, invalid argument that keeps coming up is that 'well many parents want their child taught Catholicism in schools'.......yeah because they were indoctrinated with it as well and so were their parents and their grandparents etc etc, very obvious pattern here. By all means have it in private schools though, but not in public schools.

I'm not sure why you think any of that is stupid or invalid though? A&A is ample evidence that 'indoctrination' in Irish schools barely rises to the level of 'passing suggestion', so you can't really say those parents don't know their own minds. And if the public want it in public schools why shouldn't they have it?

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Anyway I don't think parents should put their religious or non religious opinions on their children, but I'd have at least some understanding of the above argument if the parents were taught about all religions amd none in school and came to their decision independently.

Which is fair enough, but I'm guessing those parents would disagree with your opinion. And really, their opinion should carry at least a little more weight than yours when it comes to educating their children, shouldn't it?

Huntergonzo · 05-11-2015 12:53pm

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think any of that is stupid or invalid though? A&A is ample evidence that 'indoctrination' in Irish schools barely rises to the level of 'passing suggestion', so you can't really say those parents don't know their own minds. And if the public want it in public schools why shouldn't they have it?

To simply call it 'passing suggestion' is quite the understatement, the public schools certainly spend a lot of time making suggestions about the catholic faith and very little or none about other faiths and the possibility of there being no God. Anyway if the public had a fair and balanced education and still wanted Catholicism in schools then it would be more difficult to argue against it but that's not the case in Ireland and either way schools should provide secular eduction for parents who want it.

Absolam wrote: »

which is fair enough, but I'm guessing those parents would disagree with your opinion. And really, their opinion should carry at least a little more weight than yours when it comes to educating their children, shouldn't it?

I don't really know what the majority of parents want, but when it comes to cases of human rights then the majority shouldn't be allowed to rule. I don't have children myself but if I do in the near future then I will most probably have to get them baptized just so they could enter a local primary school, where they would then inevitably be taught all about Jesus, Mary, a burning bush etc etc, against my wishes, surely that's not right either?

Absolam · 05-11-2015 2:20pm

Huntergonzo wrote: »

To simply call it 'passing suggestion' is quite the understatement, the public schools certainly spend a lot of time making suggestions about the catholic faith and very little or none about other faiths and the possibility of there being no God. Anyway if the public had a fair and balanced education and still wanted Catholicism in schools then it would be more difficult to argue against it but that's not the case in Ireland and either way schools should provide secular eduction for parents who want it.

I have a feeling most of those public schools you're talking about are catholic ethos schools, to be fair. I imagine secular ones wouldn't? I certainly agree that parents who want secular education should open schools; at very least it would provide greater choice to other parents.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I don't really know what the majority of parents want, but when it comes to cases of human rights then the majority shouldn't be allowed to rule. I don't have children myself but if I do in the near future then I will most probably have to get them baptized just so they could enter a local primary school, where they would then inevitably be taught all about Jesus, Mary, a burning bush etc etc, against my wishes, surely that's not right either?

Surely if you didn't like it you could arrange education to suit your principles? Which do you wish for more; the education you want for your children, or someone else to provide it?

Deadlie · 05-11-2015 3:03pm

Given the importance put on Catholicism in school, I'd love to do a survey with school goers and see how many could name the yen commandmentsz or the twelve apostles, or some other basic knowledge of their faith.

Its make for a strong case against restrictive admissions, I'd imagine

Huntergonzo · 05-11-2015 3:07pm

Absolam wrote: »

I have a feeling most of those public schools you're talking about are catholic ethos schools, to be fair. I imagine secular ones wouldn't? I certainly agree that parents who want secular education should open schools; at very least it would provide greater choice to other parents.

I have no problem with catholic ethos schools that are entirely privately owned, run and funded by the catholic church but the state has no business favouring one religion over others or none. Opening up schools to fit every child's different needs and preferences is impractical and impossible as you well know, this is why the state should be as neutral as possible to include as many children as possible.

Absolam wrote: »

Surely if you didn't like it you could arrange education to suit your principles? Which do you wish for more; the education you want for your children, or someone else to provide it?

Why couldn't I just send them to the local public school that my tax helps pay for without fear of them being indoctrinated with Catholicism? It's not a lot to ask for in fairness.

expectationlost · 05-11-2015 3:14pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

some stats re what?

how many Catholic children from outside the area are in D6 schools

Huntergonzo · 05-11-2015 3:23pm

Deadlie wrote: »

Given the importance put on Catholicism in school, I'd love to do a survey with school goers and see how many could name the yen commandmentsz or the twelve apostles, or some other basic knowledge of their faith.

Its make for a strong case against restrictive admissions, I'd imagine

I have a 10 year old nephew that I regularly help out with homework and to be fair he does know a bit about Jesus, Mary, Joseph, God creating man and woman, the garden of Eden, Moses parting the sea etc etc etc and all that fairytale stuff.

He came in one day when I was watching Cosmos (excellent series by the way), so out of curiosity I asked him did he recognise these 3 names:

1. Albert Einstein = yes, in fairness he is mentioned a lot in cartoons (I 1st heard his name mentioned in Animaniacs for jaysus sake!) so a lot of children know him but they haven't a clue why he's famous.

2. Isaac Newton = No, not a clue.

3. Charles Darwin = No, again not a clue.

So that's where our tax money is going, Jesus and burning bushes, but some of the most brilliant scientists in history......well they can feck right off!!!

expectationlost · 05-11-2015 7:49pm

Study of religion devoid of faith blinkered, says Archbishop http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/study-of-religion-devoid-of-faith-blinkered-says-archbishop-1.2418766 religious ppl arn't going to disappear overnight and as ever talks about elsewhere not heree where the religious dfominate our schols

expectationlost · 05-11-2015 8:20pm

https://www.facebook.com/events/464830520362308/ walk4eva

Crowds turn out to support family of Dublin girl who failed to get place in local school
http://www.thejournal.ie/walk-for-eva-dublin-2425788-Nov2015/
photo https://twitter.com/EamonRyan/status/662332872003616772 note the signs

father was interviewed at websummit https://twitter.com/paddycosgrave/status/662330488787501060

Hotblack Desiato · 05-11-2015 11:12pm

expectationlost wrote: »

how many Catholic children from outside the area are in D6 schools

The Dept Ed may have this data, but may not - the schools sure would, but almost certainly wouldn't tell.

Anyone who has ever commuted by bus through the area in the morning can tell you there are a lot of kids travelling to go to school there.

It seems Dept Ed looks at the census to determine future school demand in an area - what allowance if any it makes for children going to out of area schools is unknown, but there is certainly anecdotal evidence of severe difficulty for non-catholic non-CoI kids living in Dublin 6 to get a school place at all.

Nobody has suggested it is right or fair that children who already have a choice of schools in their own area can also get places in another area and jump into the queue ahead of children who actually live in that other area - because it's not remotely right or fair.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-11-2015 11:13pm

expectationlost wrote: »

father was interviewed at websummit https://twitter.com/paddycosgrave/status/662330488787501060

Wow. That's going to generate a lot of international coverage - not favorable either and deservedly so - people who are thinking of moving here need to know the truth about bringing up children here.

Bristolscale7 · 06-11-2015 12:45am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wow. That's going to generate a lot of international coverage - not favorable either and deservedly so - people who are thinking of moving here need to know the truth about bringing up children here.

It is a known problem for Intel in getting engineers and physicists from their U.S. and Israeli operations to agree to do a stint in Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-11-2015 1:04am

They also need to know the truth about what can happen if you're pregnant here.

Absolam · 06-11-2015 2:02am

We could adopt the Australian approach.. they seem pretty happy with it.

Peregrinus · 06-11-2015 2:14am

Absolam wrote: »

We could adopt the Australian approach.. they seem pretty happy with it.

The Australian approach works at least in part because Catholic schools are a (comparatively) small part of the system. Probably about 30% of pupils are in Catholic schools, maybe 5% in other non-state schools and 65% in state schools.

I think there's probably a trade-off here. The more Catholic (or other denominational) schools predominate in an education system, the harder it is to justify exclusionary admission policies.

Absolam · 06-11-2015 2:28am

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Australian approach works at least in part because Catholic schools are a (comparatively) small part of the system. Probably about 30% of pupils are in Catholic schools, maybe 5% in other non-state schools and 65% in state schools.
I think there's probably a trade-off here. The more Catholic (or other denominational) schools predominate in an education system, the harder it is to justify exclusionary admission policies.

I was more thinking of the Australian "You don't like it here? You're welcome to go back where you came from." approach to be honest

Peregrinus · 06-11-2015 2:59am

Absolam wrote: »

I was more thinking of the Australian "You don't like it here? You're welcome to go back where you came from." approach to be honest

Oh.

Well, except we do actually want the Intels, etc, of this world to be locating here. If they "go back where they came from", that's actually a problem for us.

But, with reference to Hotblack's point, Ireland isn't by any means unique. Multinational corporations who want their staff to be internationally mobile always have to address concerns about the staff getting their kids, at short notice, not just into schools but into desirable schools. And this problem arises no matter what the selection criteria for the schools are. Desirable schools are, by definition, popular and tend to be oversubscribed. And the children of temporarily posted workers turn up not having been on any waiting list, not having any siblings already in the school, not having any family connection with the school, and frequently looking to enter in a year which is not normally an entry-year. Whatever selection criteria are being used, they're not likely to tick the boxes. (Unless the selection criterion is "has plenty of money".)

Absolam · 06-11-2015 3:30am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Oh.
Well, except we do actually want the Intels, etc, of this world to be locating here. If they "go back where they came from", that's actually a problem for us.

Of course we do, but I don't think Irelands religious education (or abortion) peculiarities will be terribly big on Intels radar, unless they actually do become a problem for them in recruiting staff, in which case we'll probably hear more than the odd anecdote that this is a known problem; they certainly don't currently make an issue of it in their integration in Irish education, and they're not terribly backwards about pointing out what they'd like to see happening in the education system either.

Peregrinus · 06-11-2015 3:42am

Absolam wrote: »

Of course we do, but I don't think Irelands religious education (or abortion) peculiarities will be terribly big on Intels radar, unless they actually do become a problem for them in recruiting staf . . .

I don't think the suggestion is that they have problems recruiting staff, but that they have problems getting staff from other countries to agree to be posted to Ireland.

But, as pointed out, multinationals have problems getting staff to agree to be posted to foreign countries generally, and where the staff have school-age children the problems include addressing concerns about getting children into good schools. These concerns are usually addressed by throwing money at them.

If there's a particular issue with respect to Ireland, I suspect it's not "we can't get the kids into school because they're not Catholics"; it's "we can only get our kids into Catholic schools, but that's not what we want". And, I agree, while there's a strong case for providing more non-Catholic schools to cater for parents who don't want to send their children to Catholic schools, the case doesn't become materially stronger just because a small number of those parents are Intel employees who have been posted to Ireland.

Pherekydes · 06-11-2015 8:27am

Absolam wrote: »

I was more thinking of the Australian "You don't like it here? You're welcome to go back where you came from." approach to be honest

Where would Irish non-catholics go?

Or do we not exist?

machiavellianme · 06-11-2015 8:31am

Pherekydes wrote: »

Where would Irish non-catholics go?

Or do we not exist?

Nope, just like you don't have faith in a deity, the state doesn't believe that you exist...

expectationlost · 06-11-2015 12:40pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wow. That's going to generate a lot of international coverage - not favorable either and deservedly so - people who are thinking of moving here need to know the truth about bringing up children here.

it was on the first night of the summt, there with paul rowe of educate together and paddy 'ipso poll' monaghan, This text was on every seat in centre stage tonigh https://twitter.com/paddyfroggy/status/661259956264558592

its kinda wierd though paddy pullls a hissys fit with the Tasoieach office and then goes protests outside it

PopePalpatine · 06-11-2015 1:15pm

I wouldn't put it past the Ionanists to use Paddy Cosgrave's support against the #Walk4Eva campaign.

expectationlost · 06-11-2015 7:57pm

PQs on repeal section 7(3)(c) of the Equal Status Act to end discrimination in educatio https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-11-05a.409&s=section%3Awrans+speaker%3A42#g410.q constitution blaa blaa, won't do anything about problem

School patronage

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