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Anti Austerity Alliance - Keeping people in Poverty Trap

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    #122
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    I think Fine Gael have protected the public sector as much as Labour

    FG know where a lot of their votes come from. Middle income Ireland

    Unfortunately the two areas of our spending that need a serious trim are social welfare and the public service. a serious amount of middle management and admin jobs need to be lost and a lot of fraud needs to be cleared up.

    sadly these are the exact two elephants in the room that need to be tackled and the only two that don't dare get a mention unless its giving them more money which they don't deserve.

    Public service : keep the pension levy , lower starting salaries , maximum salary of 75K for management, 45k for admin and clerical and pay increases purely based on training and KPI's.

    Social Welfare : moved to a cashless card, use analytics from card data to determine need, biometric identification to prevent duplicate claims, drug testing on a monthly basis when 'signing on' for long term claimants, use automated terminals to top up payments every week and verify identity, Rent allowance paid directly to landlords accounts and damage/theft insurance included for landlords who take on RA tenants. Cut child benefit to 2 children , no child benefit paid to households with a joint income over 70k , no child benefit paid for any children conceived while mother was on social welfare.
    No ability to purchase cigarettes, alcohol, subscription television, holiday's, tanning beds, beauty services beyond haircuts.

    overall I think it would be pretty easy to deliver a saving of 6-10 billion overall.


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    #123
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Eric your a bit hard on parents there, under your dictatorship a woking family with 3 under 5's all in creche, would be paying out about 25/35k alone in creche fees. That takes them down to 45k a year before they drive to work, feed themselves and the family, pay the mortgage. There better off on the dole, that's half the problem we have at the moment.


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    #124
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Eric your a bit hard on parents there, under your dictatorship a woking family with 3 under 5's all in creche, would be paying out about 25/35k alone in creche fees. That takes them down to 45k a year before they drive to work, feed themselves and the family, pay the mortgage. There better off on the dole, that's half the problem we have at the moment.

    not trying to be harsh , obviously these are not all overnight plans, they would have to be phased in. But at the same time, if you need child benefit payments to afford kids, you shouldn't be having kids.


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    #125
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    See I think the problem with kids here are the middle class, they don't have loads of kids unless they can afford them and when I say afford, put the time into them and make sure they get a good education.
    The wealthy and when I say wealthy I mean households with an income of over 200k, they can afford loads of kids, then you have the other extreme where they can have loads of kids with loads of fathers because there not going to be paying for them.
    It's the low income and middle class that need the support, children's allowance I don't believe is the right way, free creche or child care would do a lot for the people who would do right by their kids and not just use them as a source of free income.


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    #126
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    See I think the problem with kids here are the middle class, they don't have loads of kids unless they can afford them and when I say afford, put the time into them and make sure they get a good education.
    The wealthy and when I say wealthy I mean households with an income of over 200k, they can afford loads of kids, then you have the other extreme where they can have loads of kids with loads of fathers because there not going to be paying for them.
    It's the low income and middle class that need the support, children's allowance I don't believe is the right way, free creche or child care would do a lot for the people who would do right by their kids and not just use them as a source of free income.

    The middle I will agree with. The problem is its the working class and unemployed who are currently having all of the children. This is partly because of the cash injection that comes with it and the lack of education about contraception. The problem is that we end up paying for these children, and with the best will in the world if you can't afford to have kids off your own bat , they're hardly going to get the upbringing they deserve.


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    #127
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Unfortunately the two areas of our spending that need a serious trim are social welfare and the public service. a serious amount of middle management and admin jobs need to be lost and a lot of fraud needs to be cleared up.

    sadly these are the exact two elephants in the room that need to be tackled and the only two that don't dare get a mention unless its giving them more money which they don't deserve.

    Public service : keep the pension levy , lower starting salaries , maximum salary of 75K for management, 45k for admin and clerical and pay increases purely based on training and KPI's.

    Social Welfare : moved to a cashless card, use analytics from card data to determine need, biometric identification to prevent duplicate claims, drug testing on a monthly basis when 'signing on' for long term claimants, use automated terminals to top up payments every week and verify identity, Rent allowance paid directly to landlords accounts and damage/theft insurance included for landlords who take on RA tenants. Cut child benefit to 2 children , no child benefit paid to households with a joint income over 70k , no child benefit paid for any children conceived while mother was on social welfare.
    No ability to purchase cigarettes, alcohol, subscription television, holiday's, tanning beds, beauty services beyond haircuts.

    overall I think it would be pretty easy to deliver a saving of 6-10 billion overall.

    you do realise that all public service workers had a paycut, USC, lower salaries for new recruits, worse pensions, worse contracts etc

    I'd love to know where all the middle management are in the likes of education or the gardai, or the army for that matter


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    #128
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    you do realise that all public service workers had a paycut, USC, lower salaries for new recruits, worse pensions, worse contracts etc

    I'd love to know where all the middle management are in the likes of education or the gardai, or the army for that matter

    the public service had a pay cut like the rest of us, USC like the rest of us , their already iron clad pensions got worse but are still better than most. worse contracts that still feature 100% job security once your there a short while. The public sector still have it too good.

    gardai have taken enough cuts. I wouldn't touch them, or front line medical staff. However

    the HSE - its just all the old health boards in one building, needs a serious trim

    Education - ETB's & dept of education admin staff - all need a trim, the procurement process needs an overhaul too.

    the army - do away with the FCA.


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    #129
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    the HSE - its just all the old health boards in one building, needs a serious trim
    2.7% of HSE staff work in admin/managerial/corporate functions.
    How much would you reduce this to?
    the army - do away with the FCA.
    The Army & Naval reserve budget amounts to just 2.7% of the entire defence budget.... or 0.04% of total government expenditure.
    Essentially, a drop.

    Why discard 4,300 committed almost completely voluntary service personnel for such a minuscule saving?
    Looking at this, the RDF seem pretty good value for money.
    And once discarded, what would you do with this windfall, again, amounting to 0.04% of expenditure?


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    #130
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Surprised there hasn't been more coverage of the split, not surprised at all on the split itself, which may explain the latter.

    To be honest I think the likes of Ruth 'lets nationalise Dell' and Paul 'I have a constitutional right to imprison the Tánaiste' much prefer to live in their idealogical world on the fringes without ever having to have the responsibility thrusted on them to do good on their words and how utopia is only a matter of clicking your fingers.

    A left alliance led by Sinn Fein could in the next election (not this one) prove to some to be an alternative. Yet they flat out refuse to even to contemplate even being in power. So what is the point of voting for them? Just to annoy the other 98% of us?


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    #131
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Unfortunately the two areas of our spending that need a serious trim are social welfare and the public service. a serious amount of middle management and admin jobs need to be lost and a lot of fraud needs to be cleared up.

    sadly these are the exact two elephants in the room that need to be tackled and the only two that don't dare get a mention unless its giving them more money which they don't deserve.

    Public service : keep the pension levy , lower starting salaries , maximum salary of 75K for management, 45k for admin and clerical and pay increases purely based on training and KPI's.

    Social Welfare : moved to a cashless card, use analytics from card data to determine need, biometric identification to prevent duplicate claims, drug testing on a monthly basis when 'signing on' for long term claimants, use automated terminals to top up payments every week and verify identity, Rent allowance paid directly to landlords accounts and damage/theft insurance included for landlords who take on RA tenants. Cut child benefit to 2 children , no child benefit paid to households with a joint income over 70k , no child benefit paid for any children conceived while mother was on social welfare.
    No ability to purchase cigarettes, alcohol, subscription television, holiday's, tanning beds, beauty services beyond haircuts.

    overall I think it would be pretty easy to deliver a saving of 6-10 billion overall.

    People simply won't take positions in the public service for that.

    My wife left the PS about 5 years ago. She was close to the top of the AP salary scale and working in a legal role. She went into private practice, picked up a subsequent qualification and this year, more out of interest than anything else, she applied for a role similar to what she had been doing - despite the extra qual and the extra experience they wanted her to start at the bottom of the AP scale again!!

    Likewise, 14 months ago I left the PS - the firm I work for provides certain services to a number of Public Sector bodies at a rate far in excess of what my salary was. So I'm effectively doing, on a part-time basis, the job I was doing but getting paid more to do it.


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    #132
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,147 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    the public service had a pay cut like the rest of us, USC like the rest of us , their already iron clad pensions got worse but are still better than most. worse contracts that still feature 100% job security once your there a short while. The public sector still have it too good.

    Just to be clear - there have been three PS paycuts, and an extra 10% paycut for new entrants. That's four paycuts.

    There is no evidence of widespread cuts to basic pay in the private sector.


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    #133
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Unfortunately the two areas of our spending that need a serious trim are social welfare and the public service. a serious amount of middle management and admin jobs need to be lost and a lot of fraud needs to be cleared up.

    sadly these are the exact two elephants in the room that need to be tackled and the only two that don't dare get a mention unless its giving them more money which they don't deserve.

    Public service : keep the pension levy , lower starting salaries , maximum salary of 75K for management, 45k for admin and clerical and pay increases purely based on training and KPI's.

    Great idea. Let's attract only the unambitious to the civil service. The standard of manager you'd get for 75k would be largely terrible and any decent civil servant would be lost to the private sector.
    Social Welfare : moved to a cashless card, use analytics from card data to determine need, biometric identification to prevent duplicate claims, drug testing on a monthly basis when 'signing on' for long term claimants, use automated terminals to top up payments every week and verify identity, Rent allowance paid directly to landlords accounts and damage/theft insurance included for landlords who take on RA tenants. Cut child benefit to 2 children , no child benefit paid to households with a joint income over 70k , no child benefit paid for any children conceived while mother was on social welfare.
    No ability to purchase cigarettes, alcohol, subscription television, holiday's, tanning beds, beauty services beyond haircuts.

    overall I think it would be pretty easy to deliver a saving of 6-10 billion overall.

    I agree that social welfare fraud needs to be dealt with, but it's actually not a huge problem. As for limiting what the money can be spent on, unworkable.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    Great idea. Let's attract only the unambitious to the civil service. The standard of manager you'd get for 75k would be largely terrible and any decent civil servant would be lost to the private sector.



    I agree that social welfare fraud needs to be dealt with, but it's actually not a huge problem. As for limiting what the money can be spent on, unworkable.

    based on what? I would be more comfortable saying "I have no idea whether it's a problem or not" than being able to confidently assert that.


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    #135
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    based on what? I would be more comfortable saying "I have no idea whether it's a problem or not" than being able to confidently assert that.

    Based on the low number of people being done for social welfare fraud. It goes on and should be dealt with but it's not going to save the economy.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    Based on the low number of people being done for social welfare fraud. It goes on and should be dealt with but it's not going to save the economy.

    We have a very low rate of repossessions of homes in the country.

    Using the same logic as you've just done, one could suggest that that tells us that there is no huge problem with Non Performing Loans in the country.

    Is that true?


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    #137
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    We have a very low rate of repossessions of homes in the country.

    Using the same logic as you've just done, one could suggest that that tells us that there is no huge problem with Non Performing Loans in the country.

    Is that true?

    That's a false equivalency, not using the same logic. In fact there is zero logic in the above statement.

    Social welfare fraud is constantly investigated and people are caught. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it's not going to take 200,000 people off the dole and sort out all of our problems though.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #138
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    That's a false equivalency, not using the same logic. In fact there is zero logic in the above statement.
    I disagree. Where do we stand now? Are you going to explain how that doesn't apply?
    Brian? wrote: »
    Social welfare fraud is constantly investigated and people are caught. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it's not going to take 200,000 people off the dole and sort out all of our problems though.

    Lets make it easier so. Greece 2010 -> 2015 had an extremely low rate of people being done for tax evasion and fraud.

    Ergo, Greece has no Tax problems.

    Is that not equivalent?


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    #139
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I disagree. Where do we stand now? Are you going to explain how that doesn't apply?

    Repossessions are low because banks aren't actively seeking to repossess homes. The department of social welfare is actively trying to catch people commuting welfare fraud. Clear?
    Lets make it easier so. Greece 2010 -> 2015 had an extremely low rate of people being done for tax evasion and fraud.

    Ergo, Greece has no Tax problems.

    Is that not equivalent?

    I don't know. How many man hours were the Greek revenue collectors putting in to catching tax evaders. Answer that and we'll see if it's equivalent.

    See how that works? You compare like for like, apples with apples.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #140
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    Repossessions are low because banks aren't actively seeking to repossess homes. .
    Factually incorrect.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/banks-attempt-to-repossess-7-000-plus-homes-1.2131160
    Brian? wrote: »
    The department of social welfare is actively trying to catch people commuting welfare fraud. Clear?
    The logic applied to the statements was the same in both cases, as banks are actively trying to repossess homes. That there haven't been enormous numbers of repossessions is not an indicator that the number of Non Performing Loans in the country is low.

    Good graphs here to emphasise the point - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96518012&postcount=8
    Brian? wrote: »
    I don't know. How many man hours were the Greek revenue collectors putting in to catching tax evaders. Answer that and we'll see if it's equivalent.

    See how that works? You compare like for like, apples with apples.

    Do you have a figure for the amount of man hours spent trying to catch welfare fraud in Ireland?


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    #141
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We have a very low rate of repossessions of homes in the country.

    Using the same logic as you've just done, one could suggest that that tells us that there is no huge problem with Non Performing Loans in the country.

    Is that true?

    Don't expect that logic to be accepted but it is a very good example.

    For a number of reasons - market on the rise, people getting jobs, difficulties in paperwork, time getting to court - repossessions are unusually low in Ireland.

    Similarly, we make it very difficult to catch social welfare fraud.


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    #142
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Factually incorrect.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/banks-attempt-to-repossess-7-000-plus-homes-1.2131160

    The logic applied to the statements was the same in both cases, as banks are actively trying to repossess homes. That there haven't been enormous numbers of repossessions is not an indicator that the number of Non Performing Loans in the country is low.

    It's still a false equivalency. Every person committing social welfare fraud is liable for punishment. Every non performing loan is not liable for repossession.
    Good graphs here to emphasise the point - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96518012&postcount=8



    Do you have a figure for the amount of man hours spent trying to catch welfare fraud in Ireland?

    No. Neither do you, but yet you're trying to draw comparisons.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #143
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    It's still a false equivalency. Every person committing social welfare fraud is liable for punishment. Every non performing loan is not liable for repossession.
    And is every person liable for punishment for anything actually punished for that very same thing?

    You offered the count of people who are punished for welfare fraud as an indicator of the amount of welfare fraud; for this to be true, 100% of all welfare fraud would need to be detected, 100% of all offenders would have to be punished. Are these in any way reasonable assumptions?
    Brian? wrote: »
    No. Neither do you, but yet you're trying to draw comparisons.

    Am I? :confused:

    You offered the assertion that it wasn't a huge problem. I said I'd be far more comfortable admitting that I haven't a notion about whether it is or not. I've also shown that the reasoning given to support your assertion was questionable at best. I've now given 2 completely reasonable analogies to show that your reasoning doesn't hold up in similar situations and you haven't been able to explain why 'this time is different'.


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    #144
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Brian? wrote: »
    It's still a false equivalency. Every person committing social welfare fraud is liable for punishment. Every non performing loan is not liable for repossession.

    .


    Not true again. If it is taken as accidental fraud and overpaid money is refunded, then it wouldn't go to court.


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    #145
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    They don't want people to pay their taxes, but instead to fund their court cases.
    "Paul Murphy TD
    9 hrs ·
    We still have tickets left for Friday night's ‪#‎JobstownNotGuilty‬ fundraiser. 8.30pm in Madison's in Tallaght. Tickets are €5 each or €10 as a solidarity price. Even if you can't make it, consider buying a ticket! All proceeds to the campaign."
    https://www.facebook.com/paulmurphytd/?fref=ts


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    #146
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They don't want people to pay their taxes, but instead to fund their court cases.
    "Paul Murphy TD
    9 hrs ·
    We still have tickets left for Friday night's ‪#‎JobstownNotGuilty‬ fundraiser. 8.30pm in Madison's in Tallaght. Tickets are €5 each or €10 as a solidarity price. Even if you can't make it, consider buying a ticket! All proceeds to the campaign."
    https://www.facebook.com/paulmurphytd/?fref=ts

    2744218.jpg


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    #147
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Solidarity price is one of the more laughable things I've heard lately


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    #148
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Brian? wrote: »
    Based on the low number of people being done for social welfare fraud. It goes on and should be dealt with but it's not going to save the economy.

    this is like the argument that the fraud rate for SW is 1-2% , this is the found fraud rate. One of the biggest examples of SW fraud is the boyfriend living in the single mothers council / RA house without being declared, thats fraud and Id say almost everyone in this thread could pick at least 1 person in their town who is guilty of this. Yet the enforcement rate on it is tiny.


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    #149
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,147 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Factually incorrect.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/banks-attempt-to-repossess-7-000-plus-homes-1.2131160

    The newspapers mis-report the truth.

    There are plenty of cases in the courts, but a staggeringly low amount of repossessions.

    Given the amount and scale of mortgage arrears, the number of repossessions is very, very small.


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    #150
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Geuze wrote: »
    The newspapers mis-report the truth.

    There are plenty of cases in the courts, but a staggeringly low amount of repossessions.

    Given the amount and scale of mortgage arrears, the number of repossessions is very, very small.
    There are a number of reasons for this, the FHPA being a major one. Repossession rates are fairly moot in Ireland TBH when compared to places like the US - given the very strict pro-tenant and even stricter family home legislation, it's simply cheaper and easier for the bank as owner of the property to maintain ownership and collect rent via a receiver than it is to engage in litigation and take vacant possession of a home of which they then must sell at a near-market price to benefit the beneficial owner of the property.

    If anything, for all the people moaning about the government being too lenient on banks, the government has so much legislative protection in place for the family and tenants, that it's simply not in the bank's interest in many cases to repossess the property as they usually would in places like the US where such legislation simply does not exist in such stringent form (or in many cases at all).


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    #151
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    this is like the argument that the fraud rate for SW is 1-2% , this is the found fraud rate. One of the biggest examples of SW fraud is the boyfriend living in the single mothers council / RA house without being declared, thats fraud and Id say almost everyone in this thread could pick at least 1 person in their town who is guilty of this. Yet the enforcement rate on it is tiny.

    I think we can agree that the rate is somewhere above 2%, but I can't see any reason to inflate it much beyond that.

    Your anecdotal evidence is a very poor measure. I don't know any unemployed people. I'm comfortably bourgeoise even that I don't know a single person on the dole. I can't claim there's no unemployment problem though, there's hard data to tell me there is.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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