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A chance to scrap the Angelus - Nutella, Croissants and Pineapples.

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    #302
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #303
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    lazygal wrote: »
    Then why would there be any objection to not broadcasting it, if its become meaningless? Why do we need the state broadcaster telling us to pause twice a day for a minute before the news to stare into the middle distance at a time Catholics would observe the angelus?

    Who said it's meaningless? It's a moment of reflection. I like that we have that during primetime tv, it shows there's still a place for that in the modern world. And nobody's telling us to pause when it's on.


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    #304
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Who said it's meaningless? It's a moment of reflection. I like that we have that during primetime tv, it shows there's still a place for that in the modern world. And nobody's telling us to pause when it's on.

    What if it was the Muslim call to prayer instead of the familiar knells of the church bell?


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    #305
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    What if it was the Muslim call to prayer instead of the familiar knells of the church bell?

    I'd have no issue with the music changing occasionally to something reflective of our religious make up, or no music at all even. Nothing stays the same forever.


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    #306
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Absolam wrote: »
    Which does nothing to refute the point that if 84% of the population say they're Catholic, then 84% of the population say they're Catholic.

    That is just a tautology and also not the point I was responding to.
    Absolam wrote: »
    Catholic is one of the four marks of the Church set out in the Nicene Creed

    So to be part of the catholic church, would a catholic not need to accept the Nicene Creed then?


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    #307
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,356 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    The Catholic schools in Ireland aren't really that religious (except in the fevered minds of the new atheist) so secularising them won't change much.

    If what you say is true then LET'S DO IT :) , sure who would object?

    But what you say is not true.

    No school which 'isn't really that religious' would teach a religion as truth.

    No school which 'isn't really that religious' would prepare children for religious sacraments during the taxpayer-funded school day when they're supposed to be learning.

    No school which 'isn't really that religious' would discriminate in admissions policy on the basis of religion.

    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Free advertising is stretching it. If an outsider was to arrive in Ireland and catch the Angelus, they'd be hard pressed to associate it with any particular religion.

    Let's see...

    It has the name of a catholic call to prayer

    It happens every day at the same times as catholic calls to prayer

    It has bells ringing in exactly the same format, number and rhythm as the catholic call to prayer

    I don't think this outsider is likely to be as stupid as you seem to think they are.

    I suppose people who think a cracker can turn into human flesh can convince themselves of anything. Even at 8 years old I wasn't going to buy that.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #308
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    We know they weren't opposed, because they didn't oppose it. But on the flip side, they weren't in favour of it, as they didn't vote yes. That's why those two guys took the court case afterwards; arguing the majority of the electorate didn't back the amendment.

    Would that be the two court cases funded by religious organisations that the judge didn't bother to entertain...?

    You'll never get 100% of any country that will vote in favour of anything (with exception of North korea). Regardless, the Button line is though that 62‰ of the voting age population went against the very teachings of the Catholic Church in a seriously open way.

    They didn't care what priests, Bishops or any religious bigoted person said against it.

    A majority of voting age people in this country don't respect the church and its teachings, this cannot be disputed.


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    #309
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    I'm not interested in reducing catholics to a minority, catholics should be treated with respect and equality just like everyone else but not with special treatment as is the case now. Whether a group of people are a majority or a minority shouldn't matter at all when it comes to how they're treated, especially by a state, if a state recognizes you as a second class citizen then you're really in trouble.
    I think you've a very long way to go to convince anyone that being aware of a 60 second religious program on one of the channels you can choose from on the television set you're not obliged to use relegates you to the status of second class citizen to be honest...
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    There's no question that the majority of people on this island identify themselves as catholic because of our education system which heavily favours catholicism and does not provide neutral education.
    I would certainly question it; there are plenty of posters right here who don't identify themselves as Catholic (though some may allow their mothers to do so) despite our education system heavily favouring Catholicism, so you can't really blame the education system for peoples choice in how they identify themselves; it's manifestly their own choice (or in some cases, their mammy's).
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Again all I'm saying is that I think a secular education system which favours no faith and doesn't tell children that there is no god either is fair for all, would you not agree?
    I think the discussion of how the education system could or should work is probably more relevant to a different thread... this one is about the Angleus.


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    #310
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Cultural or actual and they still can't be bothered to go to mass, something that is such a basic requirement of the religion they claim to be part of.
    Well, the religion doesn't prohibit them being part of it if they don't go to Mass, does it?
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Only 30% of the "catholic" pop regularly goes to mass and out of those around 10% don't even believe in a god. Most parents only do the communion etc stuff because the feel pressured into by parents, schools and they also have some weird misguided belief that their kid must have this day. You take religion out of school and baptisms, communions etc will drop through the floor, you know that, I know that and the church know that. Hell, take the civil marriage registration part out of a church wedding and and church weddings will drop through the floor. Once again, you know that, I know that and the Bishops sure as hell knew that when they made their baseless threat before the marriage equality vote. Most people won't bother with stuff if it requires extra work, if a parent has to bring their kid to "Sunday School" every Sunday throughout the year so their kid can do communion then most parents won't bother their arse doing it. As it is, most parents dislike going to mass in the few short weeks coming to a communion, most kids do to. Ask the average kid what they want from communion and it isn't a blessing from god or Jesus, its the ability to buy a tablet or a laptop or something from the money they get. Second on that list is having a bouncy castle or being dressed up for the day, However in saying that the last two communions I was at were for girls. Girls that wanted to get out of the dresses as soon as they could so they could go and play on the bouncy castles. So who cares about being dressed up, the kids or the parents....my money is on the parents.
    That pretty much amounts to you reckon they're not really Catholic enough to count as Catholics for your taste... but they're evidently Catholic enough to count themselves as Catholics in the census, which appears to be good enough for their own taste....
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Spot on, Just because 84% tick catholic on the census means nothing when it comes to pushing the catholic agenda in Ireland..
    That's probably true, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that 84% of the Irish population are interested in pushing the catholic agenda in Ireland (whatever that may be), only that 84% have declared they are in their own opinions Catholics.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    After all 62% of the voting age of this country are pro gay marriage, this is totally against all the teachings of the catholic church and what the bishops and Vatican lobbied for..
    Probably somewhat more accurate to say that 62% of those who voted (which means only 37.3% of those of voting age) in this country have shown they are pro gay marriage. And that means that a large proportion of those who say they are Catholic support gay marriage. It doesn't make them not Catholic though.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    If you could use the census figures to justify stuff staying in favor of the catholic church then we wouldn't have divorce, marriage equality, condoms for sale, abortion in cases of risks of suicide, single mother allowance....I don't think I need to go on..
    But no one is using the census figures to justify stuff staying in favor of the Catholic Church? The point is if you're going to provide content that reflects Ireland’s cultural and regional diversity (as is part of RTEs mission statement), you must be cognizant of the fact that 84% of the population identifies as Catholic, and cultural content should reflect that.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    In short, the 84% figure is nonsense and has no relevance to this discussion, it doesn't represent the will of the Irish public one bit when it comes to what they do want when it comes to the catholic church's influence in Ireland..
    Well, it's probably not too relevant to pushing the catholic agenda, but it seems quite relevant when it comes to providing cultural services....
    Cabaal wrote: »
    If anything we have far more meaningful proof that people have no interest in what the catholic church wants anymore or what it stands for.
    And again, we're not really talking about what the catholic church wants, we're talking about catering for people... 84% of whom identify as Catholic.


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    #311
    Not a NSA agent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Not a NSA agent


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    The Catholic schools in Ireland aren't really that religious (except in the fevered minds of the new atheist) so secularising them won't change much.

    This kind of thing along with the whole the angelus dont really matter thing are a bit odd. It's like telling some one there is nothing behind the door but they cant look.

    If it doesnt matter then why the resistance to doing it?


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    #312
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Using the church's own numbers the maximal number of actual catlicks in this country, as Absalom well knows because this has been pointed out to him multiple times*, is a shade over 22% (based on the attendance figures for regular mass goers, one of the prequisites for being a proper catlick), a whopping 10.1% of whom don't even believe in the skyfairy they are supposed to be believing in!
    Does the Roman Catholic Church actually say that being a regular mass goer is a prerequisite for being a proper Roman Catholic? I have a feeling it doesn't.
    What's an improper Roman Catholic anyway? Does the Church have anything to say about skyfairys at all? I think you're making this stuff up....
    Even the constant use of the term 'catlick' seems a rather desperate attempt to demean something in the absence of a meaningful point to put forward instead.
    No, I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church will happily agree that if they have been properly baptised every single one of those 3,861,335 people who identified themselves as Catholic in the census, even if they voted for gay marriage, had an abortion, assaulted the Pope,declared themselves apostate heretics, and haven't set foot in a church since they collected their confirmation money, are, in the Church's opinion as well as their own, Catholics.
    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    [/I]*Considering that his church has a big thing about not telling lies, it's amazing how often Absalom trots out the 84% number and other blatant falsehoods.
    I don't recall ever mentioning my church...but if you're claiming that stating that 84% of people in the last census identified as Catholic is a falsehood then I think you fundamentally misunderstand the word falsehood.
    Happy to discuss all the other blatant falsehoods you're alleging whenever you're ready :D


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    #313
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    That is just a tautology and also not the point I was responding to.
    Just because it's a tautology doesn't make it not true.
    The point you responded to was "The thing is, though, as we can plainly see, there are lots of Catholics who don't think that that's what "Catholic" means. More to the point, that's not what the Catholic church thinks, or says, that "Catholic" means." So, if 84% of respondants felt that being Catholic meant something different to them than it does to you, it doesn't negate the fact that they identify themselves as Catholic, regardless of whether you think they deserve to, or should, be considered Catholics.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    So to be part of the catholic church, would a catholic not need to accept the Nicene Creed then?
    Well, you were asking for an actual papal decree or official vatican document of what the catholic church says "catholic" means, so that was what I provided (you're welcome by the way), but no, accepting the Nicene Creed isn't a condition of being a part of the Church. To be a part of the Catholic Church, one need only be baptised in the Catholic Church, or be baptised a Christian and enter the Catholic Church by profession of faith and formal reception. To avoid any additional confusion, since the Nicene Creed is considered a profession of faith, the statement "I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God." is considered sufficient profession for Christians becoming part of the Church.


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    #314
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    what's the relevance of a person identifying as catholic in a census form if you accept that this declaration doesn't hold much sway in that person's outlook or practices day-to-day?

    if the inference is that yr declared catholic is presumably in favour of the Angelus, which would seem to be a fair representation of the position, then pointing out that this 84% doesn't exactly manifest itself in a similar manner across a broad range of topics that can and have been measured would appear to render the larger figure dubious at best.


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    #315
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    by the way, I was baptised but I'm not a catholic. is it yr contention now that the church's definition of my religious beliefs supersedes mine?


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    #316
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    what's the relevance of a person identifying as catholic in a census form if you accept that this declaration doesn't hold much sway in that person's outlook or practices day-to-day?
    if the inference is that yr declared catholic is presumably in favour of the Angelus, which would seem to be a fair representation of the position, then pointing out that this 84% doesn't exactly manifest itself in a similar manner across a broad range of topics that can and have been measured.
    Well the inference isn't that 84% would favour keeping the Angelus; it's that RTE is obligated to consider the cultural composition of the nation when determining programming.
    Anyway, there's no reason to think that the declaration of those 84% doesn't hold much sway in their outlook or practices day to day, we only know that the outlook and day to day practices that some non Catholics think should hold sway for 'proper' Catholics in their opinion, don't in fact hold sway for a reasonably large proportion of those Catholics. Which only seems to demonstrate that there's a difference between what people who don't call themselves Catholic think is Catholic, and what people who do call themselves Catholic think is Catholic.
    RTEs own research on the subject has apparently shown that a majority of viewers favour keeping the programme, which is at least suggestive that some of those 84% are in favour of the Angelus, whether or not it's because they think of themselves as Catholic.


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    #317
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    by the way, I was baptised but I'm not a catholic. is it yr contention now that the church's definition of my religious beliefs supersedes mine?
    Nope, my contention is that if you're baptised Catholic, engage in a variety of non Catholic activities and claim to still be Catholic, the Catholic Church will probably agree with you that you are Catholic.


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    #318
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Absolam wrote: »
    Anyway, there's no reason to think that the declaration of those 84% doesn't hold much sway in their outlook or practices day to day, we only know that the outlook and day to day practices that some non Catholics think should hold sway for 'proper' Catholics in their opinion, don't in fact hold sway for a reasonably large proportion of those Catholics.

    there's plenty of reasons to think this, these reasons are wide, numerous and varied and have been referred to throughout this thread. I won't be repeating them tbh.

    on the point that rte ran a poll and there was a preference to keep the Angelus? I'm grand with that tbh. it's the contention that we can infer the preferences of the population between census years from one intentionally vague and cloudy tickbox that prompts the declaration of an indoctrinated cultural background that I'd take issue with.


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    #319
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    there's plenty of reasons to think this, these reasons are wide, numerous and varied and have been referred to throughout this thread. I won't be repeating them tbh.
    I don't think so; there's reason to think (based on what has been put forward on A&A threads generally) that their outlook and practices don't match what some people think ought to be the outlook and practices of people who identify as Catholics, but that's a different thing, so they obviously don't bear repeating.
    on the point that rte ran a poll and there was a preference to keep the Angelus? I'm grand with that tbh. it's the contention that we can infer the preferences of the population between census years from one intentionally vague and cloudy tickbox that prompts the declaration of an indoctrinated cultural background that I'd take issue with.
    I don't think anyone is inferring their preferences from a (quite specific black and white) tick box that's prompts no more than a choice between a number of options. I've no idea what their preferences are regarding the Angelus (though RTE does seem to). What's being inferred is that a service which provides cultural programming has a clear mandate to provide programming relevant to a substantial segment of Irish culture, based on how that segment has chosen to describe itself. And I do have a good idea that 84% of the population identify as Catholics, so I think it's reasonable that cultural programming should reflect that. Regardless of how cloudy and vague you think the tickbox was (and let's be honest... it was neither; it was a tickbox), or even the fact that you believe that people identify as Catholic because they are indoctrinated by their cultural background, rather than identifying as any of the other equally available options like the other 16%, the fact remains, they choose to identify themselves as Catholics.


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    #320
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Cabaal wrote: »
    They didn't care what priests, Bishops or any religious bigoted person said against it.

    A majority of voting age people in this country don't respect the church and its teachings, this cannot be disputed.

    Well, if you're trying to spin it, then it's going to be disputed. Archbishop Martin expressly said he wouldn't ask people which way to vote. Plenty of clerics went even further and called for a yes vote. The majority of the electorate respected this, so I'm not seeing the ignorance you're speaking of.


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    #321
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,356 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    But Martin did make it clear he was voting No, that the pope was against it... he didn't need to say 'catholics must vote No', those (few, not 84% that's for sure) who'd actually listen to him would have got the message already

    He was smart enough to realise that if he had explicitly told people what way to vote it would have caused a larger backlash for Yes.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #322
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Absolam wrote: »
    I think you've a very long way to go to convince anyone that being aware of a 60 second religious program on one of the channels you can choose from on the television set you're not obliged to use relegates you to the status of second class citizen to be honest...

    That's a pretty flippant response, I am of course refering to much more than just the angelus but you've already stated below your intentions to talk about nothing but the angelus, which is strange because you're already discussing others things on this thread.
    Absolam wrote: »
    I would certainly question it; there are plenty of posters right here who don't identify themselves as Catholic (though some may allow their mothers to do so) despite our education system heavily favouring Catholicism, so you can't really blame the education system for peoples choice in how they identify themselves; it's manifestly their own choice (or in some cases, their mammy's).

    Of course you'd question it, why wouldn't you if you're a catholic and perhaps fancy yourself at arguing. However you would have a very long way to go to convince people that there's absolutely no correlation between the fact that the catholic church runs over 90% of the primary schools and catholicism is the predominate faith on this island, bit more than a huge coincidence there I'm afraid.
    Absolam wrote: »
    I think the discussion of how the education system could or should work is probably more relevant to a different thread... this one is about the Angleus.

    Cop out, you've already talked about topics than just the angelus, I'll put you down for a predicable no to secular education and we'll leave it there.

    Ps, to stay consistent and prove you're not a hypocrite, if you respond to me again you must not mention any other topic than the angelus because that's what you're stringently here to talk about apparently.


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    #323
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,338 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Well, if you're trying to spin it, then it's going to be disputed. Archbishop Martin expressly said he wouldn't ask people which way to vote. Plenty of clerics went even further and called for a yes vote. The majority of the electorate respected this, so I'm not seeing the ignorance you're speaking of.
    Hold on a minute, if the catholic church wasn't trying to influence the vote, why did they read out letters to everyone at mass that called for a no vote?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bishops-tell-congregations-the-natural-order-is-marriage-between-a-man-and-a-woman-31229132.html


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    #324
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    That's a pretty flippant response, I am of course refering to much more than just the angelus but you've already stated below your intentions to talk about nothing but the angelus, which is strange because you're already discussing others things on this thread.
    Is it flippant? Brian Shanahan put forward the notion that the Angelus is on a state broadcaster too, which is supposed to cater to all Irish, the non-religious majority as well as the tiny minority of paleolithic era catlicks. I disputed the notion that there is a non religious majority, which you decided to debate...
    and then introduced the idea that the state recognizes you as a second class citizen. It was a pretty straightforward progression, so I think I can be forgiven for not knowing you were referring to a 'much more' than just the Angelus in arriving at your conclusion, since you never mentioned it.
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Of course you'd question it, why wouldn't you if you're a catholic and perhaps fancy yourself at arguing. However you would have a very long way to go to convince people that there's absolutely no correlation between the fact that the catholic church runs over 90% of the primary schools and catholicism is the predominate faith on this island, bit more than a huge coincidence there I'm afraid.
    That would be one reason for questioning it. Another would be a failure to present any evidence for the assertion. I appreciate your correlation, but have you considered that it also works the other way; the reason there are so many schools run by Catholic organisations is because Catholicism is the predominant faith on this island? Which came first... the schools or the Christians?
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Cop out, you've already talked about topics than just the angelus, I'll put you down for a predicable no to secular education and we'll leave it there.
    Not really; I have contributed on the other thread and no doubt will do so again.
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Ps, to stay consistent and prove you're not a hypocrite, if you respond to me again you must not mention any other topic than the angelus because that's what you're stringently here to talk about apparently.
    Oh I don't know about that at all... I think you're just making stuff up there. I don't think I ever said I was stringently here to talk about the Angelus, in fact I've already demonstrated my willingness to talk about other subjects, like how many mammies fill out census forms for children who don't tell them their religious preferences.


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    #325
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Hold on a minute, if the catholic church wasn't trying to influence the vote, why did they read out letters to everyone at mass that called for a no vote?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bishops-tell-congregations-the-natural-order-is-marriage-between-a-man-and-a-woman-31229132.html

    And other preists did the opposite.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/fr-iggy-o-donovan-calls-for-yes-vote-in-marriage-referendum-1.2132636

    Point is, the Church, collectively, didn't tell people how to vote.


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    #326
    Not a NSA agent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Not a NSA agent


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    And other preists did the opposite.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/fr-iggy-o-donovan-calls-for-yes-vote-in-marriage-referendum-1.2132636

    Point is, the Church, collectively, didn't tell people how to vote.

    What does the pope and vatican think on the subject? Sure you can have a few priests who are capable of allowing others to have religious freedom but the organisation itself was against it. The leaders in Ireland even considered backing out of the civil part of marriages.

    Is this going to be the newest thing? Heres a priest who was ok with the state deciding how it wants to treat marriage, therefore the church wasnt against it despite the people in charge and all the groups like iona who happened to be affiliated with the church was against it. I know people are a fan of pretending the church was never wrong but at least wait a few years before you do it.


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    #327
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    No school which 'isn't really that religious' would prepare children for religious sacraments during the taxpayer-funded school day when they're supposed to be learning.

    No school that is "not that religious" would spend 732 hours over the course of a child's 8 years attendance at the school giving them religious indoctrination (Irish primary schools have to spend 10% of teaching time, half an hour every day, on "faith formation" which is a rule set down by the department) outside of the months wasted preparing for communions, confirmations, and religious pageants.

    The amount of time spent on "faith formation" is the largest amount of time spent on a single subject in the Irish primary curriculum. Neccessary and useful subjects like the sciences, foreign languages, computer studies and even physical education are shoved aside so that the rcc can have a free shot at brainwashing the little bairns into their cult.


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    #328
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    No school that is "not that religious" would spend 732 hours over the course of a child's 8 years attendance at the school giving them religious indoctrination (Irish primary schools have to spend 10% of teaching time, half an hour every day, on "faith formation" which is a rule set down by the department) outside of the months wasted preparing for communions, confirmations, and religious pageants.
    The amount of time spent on "faith formation" is the largest amount of time spent on a single subject in the Irish primary curriculum. Neccessary and useful subjects like the sciences, foreign languages, computer studies and even physical education are shoved aside so that the rcc can have a free shot at brainwashing the little bairns into their cult.
    According to the Curriculum, it's neither religious indoctrination, nor faith formation, it's religious education. And since it's up to the patron bodies to decide what that curriculum entails, it doesn't actually have to include either religious indoctrination or faith formation...
    Also, at 10% of school time, religious education falls far short of the largest amount of time spent on a single subject in the Irish primary curriculum; Language 1 gets 20% (5hrs per week)
    Maths gets almost 17% (4hrs 10 mins per week)
    Language 2 gets 14% (3hrs 30mins per week)
    Social Environment and Scientific Education gets about 12% (3hrs per week)
    Arts Education also gets about 12% (3hrs per week)
    Though as I've already said, it is a discussion best suited to the other thread.


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    #329
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Absolam wrote: »
    Is it flippant? Brian Shanahan put forward the notion that the Angelus is on a state broadcaster too, which is supposed to cater to all Irish, the non-religious majority as well as the tiny minority of paleolithic era catlicks. I disputed the notion that there is a non religious majority, which you decided to debate...
    and then introduced the idea that the state recognizes you as a second class citizen. It was a pretty straightforward progression, so I think I can be forgiven for not knowing you were referring to a 'much more' than just the Angelus in arriving at your conclusion, since you never mentioned it

    I doubt your sincerity when you say you didn't know I was referring to much more than just the angelus when talking about the state making people feel like second class citizens through religious bias but let's not get caught up on that particular detail.
    Absolam wrote: »
    That would be one reason for questioning it. Another would be a failure to present any evidence for the assertion. I appreciate your correlation, but have you considered that it also works the other way; the reason there are so many schools run by Catholic organisations is because Catholicism is the predominant faith on this island? Which came first... the schools or the Christians?

    You don't consider the fact that over 90% of our primary schools being run by the catholic is evidence of why many people in Ireland may consider themselves catholic, I'm afraid then you're impervious logic.

    Which came first the christians or schools, I don't exactly know but they certainly go hand in hand and as I've said before the state has no business favouring majorities or minorities when it comes to faith or absence of it, they should be neutral so it's fair for all. You're trying to say that the state should favour you over me because you hold an unproven belief that I don't, there's no justification for that.
    Absolam wrote: »
    Oh I don't know about that at all... I think you're just making stuff up there. I don't think I ever said I was stringently here to talk about the Angelus, in fact I've already demonstrated my willingness to talk about other subjects, like how many mammies fill out census forms for children who don't tell them their religious preferences.

    Ok then why ignore a question and tell me (referring to this thread) "this one is about the Angleus" when you've also just expressed your "willingness to talk about other subjects". I didn't make anything up there, those are your words.

    Ps, my mammy has known I don't believe in God for at least 10 years now yet I was registered a catholic in the 2011 census, how long ago was 2011?


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    #330
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    I doubt your sincerity when you say you didn't know I was referring to much more than just the angelus when talking about the state making people feel like second class citizens through religious bias but let's not get caught up on that particular detail.
    Hmm. You can see that you didn't offer any subject aside from the Angelus as a basis for your assertion though?
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    You don't consider the fact that over 90% of our primary schools being run by the catholic is evidence of why many people in Ireland may consider themselves catholic, I'm afraid then you're impervious logic.
    I can certainly see why so many schools in Ireland are run by Catholic organisations, given that such a large proportion of the population identify as Catholics... that seems logical.
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Which came first the christians or schools, I don't exactly know but they certainly go hand in hand and as I've said before the state has no business favouring majorities or minorities when it comes to faith or absence of it, they should be neutral so it's fair for all. You're trying to say that the state should favour you over me because you hold an unproven belief that I don't, there's no justification for that.
    Well firstly, if you have a little think about which came first you might figure it out. Failing that, google will probably serve. Anyway, I have never said that the state should favour me over you for any reason whatsoever. What I said was the State broadcaster has an obligation to present cultural programming consistent with the cultural composition of the nation.
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Ok then why ignore a question and tell me (referring to this thread) "this one is about the Angleus" when you've also just expressed your "willingness to talk about other subjects". I didn't make anything up there, those are your words.
    Because I think the discussion of how the education system could or should work is probably more relevant to the other thread... this one actually is about the Angelus. It's in the title?
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Ps, my mammy has known I don't believe in God for at least 10 years now yet I was registered a catholic in the 2011 census, how long ago was 2011?
    The census was four years and two months (ish) ago. So.... you're saying you were complicit in your mammy falsifying the census return? If it's been on your mind, it's worth knowing that any person who fails or refuses to provide the information requested on the census form or who knowingly provides false information may be subject to a fine of up to €25,000. So if you feel like doing the right thing.... you're worth up to €50k in fines to the State.


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    #331
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Absolam wrote: »
    Well firstly, if you have a little think about which came first you might figure it out. Failing that, google will probably serve.

    I'm aware that christianity is in Ireland quite a long time but what does that prove? and how did it spread anyway, surely people must have started teaching other people about it and it spread widely in what was a very superstitious time. Anyway we now know a lot more about the world and universe around us which sort of negates the need for omnipotent sky fairies I'd argue.
    Absolam wrote: »
    Anyway, I have never said that the state should favour me over you for any reason whatsoever. What I said was the State broadcaster has an obligation to present cultural programming consistent with the cultural composition of the nation.

    ie, we're the catholic majority, so you can fcuk off. The state should be there to ensure that the majority don't have more rights than the minority. As it is at the minute catholics have a right to hear their call to prayer (which is what the angelus is) on the national broadcaster, yet people of other faiths don't and atheists aren't represented either. Anyway I don't want to see atheists opinions or other faith calls to prayer before the 6.01pm news, I just want to see the 6.00pm news!!!
    Absolam wrote: »
    The census was four years and two months (ish) ago. So.... you're saying you were complicit in your mammy falsifying the census return?

    Haha, yes I'm complicit, actually no complacency was my main crime, I presumed it would be filled out correctly and found out later that it wasn't.

    As a matter of interest are you complicit in supporting pedophile priests by donating your money to the catholic church (an organisation who systematically covered up for those vile pedophiles) in their collections at mass?


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