Lack of new routes at Cork airport

This post has been deleted.

This post has been deleted.

This post has been deleted.

This post has been deleted.

Spacetime is right.
The operating terminal has spare capacity for at least 1,000,000 passengers per annum. It has plenty of room to expand and bring in more revenue. Why open another terminal incurring fit-out costs and increasing overall operating costs?
This is the same DAA thinking that got the airport into its current debt-ridden state.

SpaceTime wrote: »

As I said, there's been a strong recovery in Dublin with a localised recovery in Cork City.
.
.
A lot of people may also have disposed of holiday homes in Spain and elsewhere due to the financial crisis or, aren't using them frequently opting to let them instead.

People aren't flying as much.

That's not empirically supported.

1. The number of Corkonians flying has not decreased significantly at all; but the number flying from Cork Airport has by 500,000

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/ryanair-say-movement-is-needed-to-lower-cork-airport-charges/
Mr Jacobs conceded that Cork Airport had been unable to offer the same type of deals as other airports, such as Shannon, because it had been saddled with debts of more than €120m.

He also revealed that 500,000 Corkonians flew with Ryanair in 2014 from other airports while 812,000 flew with the airline from Cork.
He said: “We’ve got growth in the number of Corkonians flying with us out of Shannon, out of Dublin, but not everyone in Cork wants to do that. It’s not really in our hands. We’d like to have more flights back here. We need to get the charges down. There needs to be a big movement (in prices) for Cork to be competitive.”

2. Factor in another 500,000 people for South Munster:

http://www.independent.ie/business/more-than-a-million-fliers-bypass-120m-cork-airport-30975357.html
It is now estimated that more than one million passenger journeys by Munster-based travellers bypass Cork Airport in favour of Dublin, Shannon and even Kerry.
Ryanair told the Irish Independent that they handled 500,000 Cork-based passengers from other Irish airports last year including Dublin, Shannon and Kerry.
A further 500,000 south Munster-based passengers are also opting for Dublin and Shannon services with Aer Lingus and other carriers due to greater route choices including transatlantic services.

That gives a total of 1million bypassing Cork Airport.

Just to go over the actual collapse of Cork Airport again:
Peak figures from Cork were 3.2 million
Recent figures were slipping under 2.1 million
Difference: 1.1 million

3. Now compare the gains at Shannon, Knock, Kerry and Dublin

Traffic losses at Cork have been offset by commensurate gains elsewhere.

The latest Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) figures show that while Dublin (+6.5pc) and Shannon (+18.7pc) both registered significant increases in passenger numbers in 2014, Cork suffered further losses (-3.8pc).

After 5 years of decline, Shannon airport saw a 17% increase in passengers in 2014. The airport gained over 200,000 passengers
.
.
The good news for Shannon comes in contrast to the massive downturn in passengers for Cork airport. Cork airport has lost 36% of its passengers, over a million in total. Over the same period, it has lost carriers including Malev, EasyJet, Wizz, ThomsonFly, CentralWings, BMIBaby, Air Wales, British European and Loganair. The painful part is that over 500,000 Munster flyers have chosen to use other airports, despite Cork airport spending €120 million on a new terminal.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoi...on-284203.html
a peak of 3.25m passengers in 2008, Cork airport looks set to drop to 2.1m this year. Shannon has seen a slight increase, from 1.3m passengers in 2012 to 1.4m last year. Dublin Airport handled 20.17m passengers in 2013 — up 6% on 2012. Cork has seen its passenger numbers slump by almost 5% since the start of the year alone, with July figures down almost 6%. That compares to a 15% increase in passenger figures at Shannon for the first six months of 2014.

However, if one delves behind the headline numbers, there are a number of factors which have lead to the decline at Cork.

The biggest impact between 2008 and now has been the loss of the Cork-Dublin route which, at its peak, accounted for half a million passengers per year.

In the last 12-18 months, it has been the loss of Wizz Air, which used Cork as its only Irish hub to a number of Eastern European locations and which accounted for 11% of the market. When Ryanair came in for a piece of its action, Wizz Air departed. With Wizz Air gone, Ryanair then moved those flights to Shannon. That is estimated to have cost Cork Airport 70,000 passengers this year so far, and will reach 150,000 by year end.

You are correct about the improved road to Dublin being a factor (hence when I think the inertia surrounding the Limerick-Cork abomination 'suits' the government at the moment, as that will only kill Cork faster).

The loss of the WizzAir flights has been a serious blow.
I'm happy to pay over the odds to fly to the Baltic from Cork, as are many passengers I'd imagine, but we don't have the choice any longer, as the flight was moved to Shannon.

Flying from Shannon costs me more anyway, petrol, parking and so on.
I'd rather fly from Cork and pay the difference.
Cork cannot compete with Shannon tho.

Its strange isn't it, when there is complaints about the debt, Shannon is doing amazingly well stealing all of corks routes. When there a more general discussion about how cork is a great airport, it is said that Shannon is doing awful and has no real routes.

Make up your minds! And try to do it without making up things!

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Here is an analogy:
Dunnes lost 100k customers.
Lidl had a commensurate gain of 100k customers.

'Stealing' doesn't enter the equation. Lidl have outcompeted Dunnes and attracted their customers.
(Unless one suggests that Lidl attracted 100k shoppers who DID NOT previously shop at Dunnes)



Cork is losing 70k passengers, up to 150k passengers, to Shannon, from a flight dropped from Cork.

Shannon has outcompeted Cork.
Cork is unable to compete with any other airports.

Key word is commensurate.

So what airline put in a replacement route to Shannon after wizz left? None. The anology doesn't work because the original point was again incorrect.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The analogy works perfectly.

1. WizzAir had a flight to Lithuania from Cork.
2. Ryanair, pursuing standard tactics, opened a competing flight & hunted them out of the market.
3. Ryanair moved the flight to Shannon, from Cork, to take advantage of a better business model.
4. Up to 150k former Cork to Lithuania Customers are now forced to fly from Shannon, as the Cork service no longer exists.
5. Estimated that up to 50k are also now flying from Dublin.

Shannon and Dublin had have commensurate gains relative to Cork's losses.

Your contention requires that Shannon and Dublin have created 200k 'NEW' Passengers. That is statistically impossible.

No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.

draiochtanois wrote: »

Cork - Modlin / Warsaw is now Shannon - Modlin / Warsaw

When did Warsaw Modlin move from Poland to Lithuania?

Carnacalla wrote: »

No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.

My facts are straight. (and clearly presented).

You have presented no counter argument, other than an extremely weak contention that a Shannon-Kaunas route which primarily cannibalised the passengers of a Cork-Vilnius route, is not comparable.

This is irrational.

By this logic, when 100k Dunnes shoppers no longer buy Chef Ketchup, but Lidl's Kania brand Ketchup, you are asserting that
A) Ketchup != Ketchup.
100k former Dunnes Shoppers no longer eat ketchup

Irrational argument is irrational.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Arguing is not futile, merely I am relying on logic and verifiable fact, and you are relying on opinion.

The fave is Villnus was not moved to Shannon. That's a fact. A verifiable fact. Go check the Ryanair page.

The contention that the Shannon flight is merely a Knock-Kaunas flight is not statistically possible.

How so? The passengers that used the knock service would mostly use the Shannon service, it's operated by the same aircraft as the old knock route?

Andip wrote: »

Boards is a place for discussion, not argument...please read the rules.

In logic and philosophy, an argument is a series of statements typically used to persuade someone of something or to present reasons for accepting a conclusion.

argumentation; the action or process of reasoning systematically in support of an idea, action, or theory.

I primarily post in the Politics forum, posters are expected to be able to back up their statements (it's in the forum charter). I can use different terminology if you prefer; debate.

I see no mention against debating (logical argumentation) in this Forum's Charter

[Sticky] Forum Charter
For those of you who haven't posted here before, welcome!

We got along without one of these for long enough, so I'll keep it brief...

-The general boards.ie rules apply.
-No spamming, no trolling, no flaming, no advertising.No posting or linking offensive material (such as pornography).
-Personal abuse is not tolerated under any circumstances; if you have a point to make you can do so without resorting to petty insults.
-Please use the "Report this post" feature (visible on each and every post under the user's profile) whenever you see something which breaches the charter or the general rules of boards.
-A thread that has nothing to do with Cork will be moved to a more suitable forum.
-Text Speak is also frowned upon, please try to use your entire keyboard when making a post.If you are unsure of anything PM a Mod,thats what we are here for.
-Occasionally the more elitist among us like to pull the piss out of the PROC (People's Republic of Cork). Since this invariably results in a response in kind from PROCers, and means I have to issue either a forum ban or a siteban, it is not A Good Thing. Let them have their sandpit, and we'll have ours.
-While threads about nightclubs/bars are acceptable, please do not drag the thread down by insulting staff members. This includes general insulting of certain profession when you mention a nightclubs/bars name.
-Threads in which a person is identified by name or description and in said thread their professional performance is questioned must be limited to recommending their services yes/no.

-This Charter is subject to change.

Now that the necessary is out of the way, enjoy!

If I am in breach of the rules, then I apologise, but you need to be more specific as to how, because it's not at all clear to me presently.

This post has been deleted.

Just to clarify, I am in favour of a debt wipe of Cork Airport. The debt was caused under the mismanagement of the DAA and should be wiped.

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Is that you MOL

This post has been deleted.

Also to clarify, Shannon Airport will not get any use of the Shannon development rents. It's just rolling rumour to benefit corks agenda.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Mr O Riordan is mistaken, he has not done his research. I have cited this article before for being incorrect.

Also, who are you to tell me where I can post? It seems to be the opinion of you that unless I am 100% supportive of cork airport I should f**k off and not post. Is that not your opinion?

Its fairly obvious that the hostility of your posting shows how you have little points to make so reverting to petty insults fills up the spaces missing by lack of evidence/meaningful points.

I'm behind cork Airport and think it should get a debt wipe, but such myths and hostility spread by the above post do not help anything.

Why do you continue to spell Cork wrong??.You cant be forgetting the Capital C.:)

This will probably be my last post in this thread, so I intend to sum up my views as follows;

The length of this thread and passion of the posters, regardless of their position, serves as an indictment of the government's refusal to even discuss the issue, nevermind find a resolution. Forums such as boards.ie contine to demonstrate the disconnect between government and the taxpayer/electorate, in a way which was never possible previously.

I don't know how the people of Limerick/Shannon feel on the matter, but the Examiner has commented on the perception of the ongoing neglect of South-West on an increasing basis recently, and the Irish Times are even getting in on the act now.

The Buchanan report on regional development way back in 1968, proposed designating both Cork and Limerick/Shannon as “national growth centres”, to counterbalance the development of Dublin, and that was a feature of the 2002 National Spatial Strategy, all largely ignored by government until, along with the National Development plan, they were scrapped in 2013.

I already made some reference to it way back here, but the government don't have a vision for either Airport beyond Tourism, (and the regional in general apparently), especially not since the development of T2 in Dublin.

The National Planning Framework is supposed to serve as a replacement for the NSS, and is supposed to be available in the next few weeks, for many months now.

Despite this, the South-West is economically outperforming the rest of the country

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpubl.../#.VF5yAPmsV8E

• In Ireland in 2011 the South-West region accounted for 36.2% or €36.7 billion of Irish industrial output. Dublin as a region produced 18.9% or €19.2 billion worth of industrial gross output in 2011.
• South-West, West and Mid-West regions had more persons engaged in foreign owned industrial units than Irish owned in 2011
• Wages and salaries per person engaged in the Industry sector in Ireland in 2011 was highest in the South-West region at €44,800, while the Dublin region was next highest at €44,700.
• Almost €7.9 billion was spent on wages and salaries by industrial units in Ireland in 2011. The South-West region had the highest total spend at €1.5 billion while the Dublin region spent €1.4 billion.
• In 2011, County Cork had the highest value of gross output per person engaged in Ireland at €1.18 million. Mayo and Roscommon combined was the next highest at €0.78 million, while County Dublin was third in the rankings with €0.62 million per person.

The Examiner have been promoting the redevelopment of Cork, but this comes with a caveat - Cork City Developments: Investment in infrastructure is critical...everyone knows a lot of these projects are destined to fail unless the government demonstrate even a modicum of faith in the city/region's future, by at least planning to address the infrastructural problems.

I was opposed to the retrofitting of cycling lanes in the city due to the glaring lack of an orbital road (but they are here now, so we may as well make the best of them), but to the best of my knowledge, even the development of the cycling infrastructure came from majority EU funding and it was a 'use it or lose it' scenario.
Now with the increased congestion in the city and growing population, some breakthrough on the inadequate public transport and parking are more necessary than ever before. I'm not even sure how some of these new developments in the city got the green light given the congestion, but I digress.

I don't know the specifics with regard to Limerick/Shannon, but I'm sure similar comments could be made in that respect. It's never a good sign when foreigners are surprised at the fact that there isn't even a motorway connecting the 2nd and 3rd cities in 2015, lol! ( 'National' Development Plan my hole! )

Shannon are fortunate to have broken free from the government paralysis, but more importantly in my honest opinion they have very clearly demonstrated the inadequacy of the government and the DAA by rapidly turning a misery into a success story.

Cork is still immobilized and will remain so indefinitely, so I feel there is really nothing more to discuss in this thread until that situation changes. My best guess is that Cork will have to suffer much more before it will even be discussed. The core reason being, I feel this specific situation is merely symptomatic (a critical symptom nevertheless) of the overall indifference of yet another Dublin-centric government toward hub strategy and regional development.

I would never expect the regions, or the hubs, to receive the same level of investment or planning, anymore than a London-centric UK government do, and I was fully aware of that reality when I bought a house here, but it increasingly feels the government are divesting themselves of the regions and it's difficult to believe they have a vision, until they at least have a formal plan.
It may seem preposterous to a naturally left leaning population here, but I feel there is a growing understanding that we will, in turn, have to heavily divest ourselves of reliance on national government to facilitate our future growth, and engage heavily in PPP schemes & we will also need stronger (and much more competent) local government.