Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Sparks · 02-04-2015 8:27pm

BillBen wrote: »

Same here. I've only applied for a semi auto c/f I can kiss that goodbye

Nope, you're in before anything gets done, this shouldn't affect you.

bravestar · 02-04-2015 8:28pm

Time locks on a safe???? So I can't clean my guns if I get the kids to bed early or go to the range at short notice? That's a bit of a joke in fairness!

yubabill1 · 02-04-2015 8:31pm

You're grasping at straws, sparks.

They're addressing proliferation, short firearms, S/A centrefires and blatantly stating what has been Garda policy for years immemorial (1972) - placing a financial escalator on firearms licensing to discourage ownership of stuff they don't like.

Unacceptable IMHO.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 8:38pm

bravestar wrote: »

Time locks on a safe???? So I can't clean my guns if I get the kids to bed early or go to the range at short notice? That's a bit of a joke in fairness!

Set it for 2am to 4am.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 8:39pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

You're grasping at straws, sparks.

They're addressing proliferation, short firearms, S/A centrefires and blatantly stating what has been Garda policy for years immemorial (1972) - placing a financial escalator on firearms licensing to discourage ownership of stuff they don't like.

Unacceptable IMHO.

They're also recommending that the Gardai are not in charge of firearms licencing anymore.

Grizzly 45 · 02-04-2015 8:43pm

Think we should be asking to justify these recommendations as to why they belive there should be a temp cap on issuing further cf semi rifle licenses? and .22 pistols?

How do they belive a time lock system will actually function in reality? ?When anyone could simply leave it outside the time locked safe?

Will they address the continuous loss of applications by AGS of for licenses around the country in stations and why as refuses to address a seemingly chronic problem of confidential data going awol?

Also this graduated licensing system,please quantify who will run it and will once qualification has been achieved will there be an automatic grant or will it still be a blocked issue by garda top brass?

These recommendations sound like hastily thrown together ideas in some cases and somewhat sensible in others.

Grizzly 45 · 02-04-2015 8:45pm

Think we should be asking to justify these recommendations as to why they belive there should be a temp cap on issuing further cf semi rifle licenses? and .22 pistols?

How do they belive a time lock system will actually function in reality? ?When anyone could simply leave it outside the time locked safe?

Will they address the continuous loss of applications by AGS of for licenses around the country in stations and why as refuses to address a seemingly chronic problem of confidential data going awol?

Also this graduated licensing system,please quantify who will run it and will once qualification has been achieved will there be an automatic grant or will it still be a blocked issue by garda top brass?

These recommendations sound like hastily thrown together ideas in some cases and somewhat sensible in others.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 8:46pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Think we should be asking to justify these recommendations

Don't do it that way - just point out the flaws. Asking a Dail committee to justify itself to a member of the public is a lost cause.

yubabill1 · 02-04-2015 8:50pm

Sparks wrote: »

They're also recommending that the Gardai are not in charge of firearms licencing anymore.

Partially.

Trade-off is less stuff can be licensed and more onerous conditions on escalating scale.

Better off the way things are right now, at least you can get stuff allowed in the Act by going to DC etc.

Typical politician's attempt to burn candle at both ends (and Joe Soap pays for the candle, matches, labour..).

Elephant in the room: All firearms to be stored in a safe.
Will look eminently plausible in media, so farmers will be under severe pressure to get safes.
Getting farmers to spend money on something that doesn't bring a return? Good luck with that, Frances.

I'm back on campaign footing.

Maggie broke the unions in 1984 because Scargill brought the miners out when winter was over.....nobody cares about coal in the summer. Thankfully, there's an election coming and we have a petition and a little credibility (dangerous to overestimate that, though), but we lack a voice in the media.

Don't be fooled into leaving this 'till after the election, folks.
I'm deadly serious - and I had a very (very) small part in bringing Bertie down.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 8:59pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

Trade-off is less stuff can be licensed and more onerous conditions on escalating scale.

Yeah, that was a very unwelcome case of deja vu reading that bit. A structured licencing system where you get a licence for shotgun or rifle or pistol and do safety courses in those, that kinda makes sense and might work; but this apprenticeship crap... that's as bad an idea now as it was when we first suggested it.

Better off the way things are right now, at least you can get stuff allowed in the Act by going to DC etc.

No, sometimes you can. We don't have a 100% record in any court. And the way court works, it's highly unlikely we ever would.

Elephant in the room: All firearms to be stored in a safe.
Will look eminently plausible in media, so farmers will be under severe pressure to get safes.
Getting farmers to spend money on something that doesn't bring a return? Good luck with that, Frances.

Yeah, you might actually see the IFA sit up and pay attention. Damn, the largest gun-owning organisation in the country with real political clout fighting this? Can't see that being good for us...

Don't be fooled into leaving this 'till after the election, folks.

Who the hell suggested that?
But the election is what, end of this year at earliest? We've got at least 3-4 weeks to play with here...

yubabill1 · 02-04-2015 9:05pm

Sparks wrote: »

No, sometimes you can. We don't have a 100% record in any court. And the way court works, it's highly unlikely we ever would....

Nobody ever wants to go to court (if you've never been, you won't understand) but you get to argue your case under today's existing legislation, not to an appeals body under a new SI (will that mean no DC appeals anymore? not sure if they can do that, but maybe they can).

Who the hell suggested that?
But the election is what, end of this year at earliest? We've got at least 3-4 weeks to play with here

What I mean is that government will drag this out beyond the election.
My info is that Enda is desperate to be Taoiseach for 1916 centenary - at every cost (yours, mine and mostly the country's).
Not that we could precipitate an election on this issue, but we sure can raise a stink and give our vote a price on the doorstep (I'll bet lots of shooters vote, the demographic screams it).

Grizzly 45 · 02-04-2015 9:06pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

Partially.

Trade-off is less st

Elephant in the room: All firearms to be stored in a safe.
Will look eminently plausible in media, so farmers will be under severe pressure to get safes.
Getting farmers to spend money on something that doesn't bring a return? Good luck with that

If they can't fork out for less than a fill of diesel for a modern day tractor to secure the gun by the back door in the cheapest of cheap tin box.quell then it just goes to show the cavil er attitude of the irish farmer to safety. .They have the most accidents in the workplace and as the biggest gun owning group the most stolen guns.so what harm?It's not like they will be having to install alarms as well and will no doubt look for exemptions to any firearms testing too.
This is one recommendation that WILL happen.So the farmers and one gun owners might as well see that writing on the wall on this and knock themselves out and invest 100 quid for one.
Trade off less licensable stuff,don't think so,maybe harder to get and a lot of law change again as they have missed the point of the DC appeals.If their authority is going to be the final say that means the dc becomes what???Better to still have the DC as ultima ratio.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:07pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

Nobody ever wants to go to court (if you've never been, you won't understand) but you get to argue your case under today's existing legislation, not to an appeals body under a new SI (will that mean no DC appeals anymore? not sure if they can do that, but maybe they can).

You can't strike out the DC appeals with an SI, they're granted under an Act. If you rewrite the Act you can strike out that process, but odds are they won't; and they cannot remove the JR approach in the high court no matter what they do (well, other than a complete ban in the Act, that is).

Also, the appeals process reads as though it wouldn't be an AGS deal, but an FCP deal.
So you'd have some experts in there who aren't anti-firearm.

Grizzly 45 · 02-04-2015 9:12pm

[quote="Sparks;949381

Yeah, you might actually see the IFA sit up and pay attention. Damn, the largest gun-owning organisation in the country with real political clout fighting this? Can't see that being good for us...

Especially after their self serving submission and critique of semi rifles and handguns.

Also if I am reading this rightly on the .22 pistols they are saying that so long as it fit ISSF rules it can have 10 shots if it is within certain size limitations??

"rules

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:14pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Especially after their self serving submission and critique of semi rifles and handguns.

And you expected professionally paid lobbyists to not serve the people who paid them?

Maybe if we'd been sitting down with them from the start as we should have been...

yubabill1 · 02-04-2015 9:17pm

Sparks wrote: »

You can't strike out the DC appeals with an SI, they're granted under an Act. If you rewrite the Act you can strike out that process, but odds are they won't; and they cannot remove the JR approach in the high court no matter what they do (well, other than a complete ban in the Act, that is).

Also, the appeals process reads as though it wouldn't be an AGS deal, but an FCP deal.
So you'd have some experts in there who aren't anti-firearm.

H'mmmm......Scenario sounds like AGS can probably appeal FCP decision to DC, too.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:19pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

H'mmmm......Scenario sounds like AGS can probably appeal FCP decision to DC, too.

Yup, but they'd have to initiate that deliberately and that would involve them costing it out ahead of time and so on; it wouldn't be a case of "just ignore it and that's legally a properly notified refusal in 3 months".

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:26pm

toolazyforgolf wrote: »

Looking good ! Nothing about semiauto & pump action shotguns !

Yes, that's not good news (the committee not saying anything means the working group review is unopposed - ie. the ban would go through).

Grizzly 45 · 02-04-2015 9:26pm

Sparks wrote: »

And you expected professionally paid lobbyists to not serve the people who paid them?

Maybe if we'd been sitting down with them from the start as we should have been...

No I'd expect those who wrote their submission and who personally owns two semi auto shotguns to know the difference between semi and full auto first off.
Thenif I know SFA about a subject I'd either find out about it as some of my members might actually own one of these yokes..Or just STFU if it doesn't concern my organisation.
BTW we are still waiting for that IF A clarification on their statement to the comitee aren't we???

yubabill1 · 02-04-2015 9:27pm

I see only one positive from this interim report - a categorical statement from Justice Committee that legally-held firearms have very little/ near-zero to do with gun crime.

These documents usually read a certain way - the priority recommendations get mentioned first;

- looks like they are really worried about shotgun theft. This tells me a lot about their thinking. (Surprised personally at the figure of lost shotguns, BTW).

Essentially, they see less of a threat to public safety from short firearms/ SA centrefires (the measures they recommend are to appease AGS (read: Fergus).

They are also very, very worried about DC cases being lost.

In essence 2 main priorities, then - shotgun security and DC costs.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:28pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No I'd expect those who wrote their submission and who personally owns two semi auto shotguns to know the difference between semi and full auto first off.
Thenif I know SFA about a subject I'd either find out about it as some of my members might actually own one of these yokes..Or just STFU if it doesn't concern my organisation.
BTW we are still waiting for that IF A clarification on their statement to the comitee aren't we???

Yup, and throwing rocks at them while they could still send something to the committee withdrawing it wouldn't be the approach I'd take myself.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:31pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

I see only one positive from this interim report - a categorical statement from Justice Committee that legally-held firearms have very little/ near-zero to do with gun crime.

There are a few more in there to be fair.
Bringing back the FCP would prevent us going through all this dance again in the future without any warning.

(Surprised personally at the figure of lost shotguns, BTW).

I'd love to know what the split there was between lost as in unrecoverable and lost as in where-did-I-put-it?
Also, I'd love to see that figure audited, given how flawed the other data proved to be.

They are also very, very worried about DC cases being lost.

Yup, and I'd say that was keeping some AGS personnel up at night as well.

Mr.Flibble · 02-04-2015 9:31pm

Sparks wrote: »

In other words, the only .22lr pistols you'll be able to licence will be the ones you can licence today. Hell of a restriction there.

Well. Maybe the short-barrel P22s will be hit, that's true.

What's the barrel length of a typical Pardini SP or Walther GSP?

I thought Olympic pistols were the type they were inclined to tolerate. Now I'm just confused.

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:33pm

toolazyforgolf wrote: »

Or they're not looking at them at all now so never mentioned them.

Nope.
The Working Group review recommended the ban. The Committee is not a filter over the working group nor do the Working Group report to the Committee - the recommendations from both groups stand side-by-side. If the Committee don't oppose a specific Working Group recommendation, then that recommendation is unopposed when it goes to the Minister.

You seriously telling me they are going to basically ban 8,000 shotguns and leave 160 semiauto rifles with extra restrictions? Ya right

That's exactly what it looks like in these INTERIM recommendations.

These guys decide policy for 4,500,000 people every day, you think 8,000 people would keep them up at night?

Sparks · 02-04-2015 9:35pm

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

What's the barrel length of a typical Pardini SP or Walther GSP?

Hehe

That's a nice spot

Unless, of course, they're looking at 50m ISSF pistol only...

... but then, 50m pistol doesn't use a 10-round magazine...

Cass · 02-04-2015 9:35pm

Sparks wrote: »

... that's as bad an idea now as it was when we first suggested it. ..

From reading it, it would seem it's not just directed at pistols. That means anyone wanting to shoot F-Class (example) must go through years of building up a firearm history before being able to shoot in the sport.

See what happens with stupid f**king people making stupid recommendations without the first clue as to what it can cause. Bad enough they want to screw over their own sport, but now it seems it may have long reaching consequences to other sports.

Not just rifles, or pistols. Look at gun clubs. Now you must have a 20bore or 410 before going for a 12g. An air rifle before a .22, before you get the .223 you originally wanted. It essentially does away with "Good reason" for a firearm (except for those with long and varied firearm history). Everyone else will have to start from the bottom no matter what gun you want or need and no matter the good reason.

All it'll do is make shooting an "old person" sport. Those of us in it for years will have built up enough of a history (although some might find that they still fall into the training category), and those wanting to join will have to be determined and willing to take baby steps.

You've no idea how pissed off i am that this reckless sh*t has once again come back to bite us in the ass. It's the reason people should not go off half cocked, and doing things off their own bat.

Grizzly 45 · 02-04-2015 9:36pm

Sparks wrote: »

Yup, and throwing rocks at them while they could still send something to the committee withdrawing it wouldn't be the approach I'd take myself.

And if you belive that they will send something on that subject from what I have heard of the persons who drew this up ,one being an utter SXS knickerbocker and tweed man who abhors semis and pistols and another who owns two semis but can't figure out that they aren't machine guns ,and claimed they would issue a statement three weeks ago on their submission. I'do say the chances of that are ...well. nill perhaps..

yubabill1 · 02-04-2015 9:38pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No I'd expect those who wrote their submission and who personally owns two semi auto shotguns to know the difference between semi and full auto first off.
Thenif I know SFA about a subject I'd either find out about it as some of my members might actually own one of these yokes..Or just STFU if it doesn't concern my organisation.
BTW we are still waiting for that IF A clarification on their statement to the comitee aren't we???

Interesting that justice cttee ignored S/A pump shotguns. Especially given the IFA input.

I'm in the camp that thinks justice cttee don't recommend restrictions on S/A pump shotguns (at least in interim report).

Then the cttee recommend the apprenticeship suggestion from IFA.

All over the place, lad.

Ullage, sheer ullage.

Cass · 02-04-2015 9:41pm

Sparks wrote: »

Nope, you're in before anything gets done, this shouldn't affect you.

Just to be clear.

This report, as a summary of what is to come (in the most basic tense), is going to ask for further restrictions and caps on the number and type of pistols/semi autos.

So until the full report is released, and the Minister makes her decision any application must be treated and processed as the law stands now?

Any chance this interim report will be used as a basis to start implementing "policy" now?

yubabill1 · 02-04-2015 9:45pm

Sparks wrote: »

. The Committee is not a filter over the working group nor do the Working Group report to the Committee - the recommendations from both groups stand side-by-side. If the Committee don't oppose a specific Working Group recommendation, then that recommendation is unopposed when it goes to the Minister.

Sure, then that means all the WG proposals not mentioned bu Justice Cttee interim report - proliferation, crime levels, appearance etc - are all endorsed by default!

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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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