Daughter forced to believe in God

vibe666 · 10-09-2014 7:15pm

GreeBo wrote: »

It appears I owe the OP an apology and that in actuality the "decision" by the child happened in class and only the child was aware of it.
In my defense this much isnt obvious from the OP and I missed the clarification amongst the 400 other posts yesterday.

I almost feel like we should hug or something?

The OP had also stated that his daughter was baptised at her mother's request and that he wasn't that bothered at the time either way and that he was leaving it up to her to decide when she was older.

If his daughter hadn't decided at that particular moment that it was all silly and that she didn't believe in god, AND the teacher hadn't reacted so badly then we wouldn't be here debating it at all and she may well have gone another year or so before she realised how stupid it all is and made her communion, had her father watch and take pictures (whilst quietly thinking to himself how bonkers it all is), got herself a wodge of cash and then jacked it all in at a later date once the financial incentive was gone like most good Irish Catholics.

Gerry T · 10-09-2014 7:18pm

lukesmom wrote: »

I don't have to believe in all their teachings that's the thing. It's not a shopping list but I can name a lot of friends and family who would have the same thoughts as mine. I'm entitled to celebrate religious occasions, mass etc even if I don't believe in every single thing the RCC stand for. As far as I'm concerned that's my perogitive. Call me a la carte or whatever it doesn't bother me.

Because of this would you not take issue with the teaching's of the RCC in schools. It seems that you have decided for your own reasons that part of the RCC is not what you want to align yourself with. And this is the fundamental point I think for most Catholics I know. Its easy to agree that we should care and love each other. Not to steal or cause harm. These principals are found in most religions and moral societies. But people do have an issue with certain stances of the church, such as Abortion, Gay people, the churches wealth, the church putting its own reputation and monies ahead of abuse victims...the list goes on and on. For me this list is so long that I couldn't in any conscience follow the church. This thread started as one about an over reactive teacher, and I'm going off topic, but because I believe the church is not something that should be admired or followed I have a big problem with their patronage over school systems. You will also find the church is very active in south america and Africa, looking for more converts, why, because if they can't get them young they will take them dumb...easier to convert with the scary stories. I would be very happy with State patronage with a general RE class covering all religious and non-religious belief systems. That's what children need in my opinion, a balanced approach to education.

eviltwin · 10-09-2014 7:18pm

lukesmom wrote: »

He wanted to make it so I didn't have to make him.

Why would you 'make him'? Shouldn't that be something each individual decides for themselves?

bajer101 · 10-09-2014 7:19pm

Mary63 wrote: »

The OPs dd has been enrolled in a catholic School,this is to suit the OPs logistics in spite of the fact that the ET model would have suited better.
OP now needs to teach his dd to respect the ethos of the school she is in,that means keeping her beliefs about the fact that there is no god to herself,who has taught her this,if it was the OP he should never have enrolled her in a catholic school.The Principal and teacher have handled it badly but unless the child zips it she is going to be in for a miserable few years.

And here we go again...It's like the zombie apocalypse!

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 7:20pm

lukesmom wrote: »

He wanted to make it so I didn't have to make him.

But if he didn't, what if he changed his mind?

If say when he teaches adulthood and decides he wants to leave the catholic church and change to another faith or just doesn't believe it all anymore and considers himself an atheist would you be ok with this? Would you respect the decision?

I ask because you can never just assume what people really think. I know a number of people who at the time really came across like they really wanted to do the communion stuff etc, hell they even part of church choirs and one even remains so...but they don't consider themselves catholic anymore and were never really fans of the whole thing.

You might ask why they still sing in a choir, well they like the people they sing with and they like music

Mary63 · 10-09-2014 7:23pm

Why wasnt the child allowed to make up her own mind whether she wants to believe or not.She is new to the school and now through no fault of her own she will be branded more trouble than shes worth.
The principal and teacher are there to help every student and particularly the children with special needs.They wont have the time or inclination to the arguing with this parent,he has enrolled his child in a catholic school so they have assumed he has no problem with believing in God.If he rolls up or sends an email he will be entertained for approximately five minutes and then religion class will proceed as before.
We all have to suck it up,it is trivial really when you see the plight of the Palestinian Children.

vibe666 · 10-09-2014 7:24pm

Mary63 wrote: »

I am really glad i am not paying you to work for me,is that what you spend your time at work doing,is that not immoral.

Some of us have jobs we can do at the same time as browsing online forums, in fact some aspects of my job rely on it.

A lot of people here would consider that the forced religious indoctrination of innocent children into a corrupt religious sect known for incubating and covering up the largest pedophile ring the world has ever known to be the height of immorality, so I'd be very careful where I was throwing stones if I were you.

Gerry T · 10-09-2014 7:24pm

Mary63 wrote: »

The OPs dd has been enrolled in a catholic School,this is to suit the OPs bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.

MAry, some of us have been with this thread for days now and yes your welcome and your opinion is there to be debated. But really, you should have read a couple of posts before adding, I'm sure you would have a different opinion if you knew the full facts from the OP....their in the thread

coffee_cake · 10-09-2014 7:26pm

Mary63 wrote: »

Why wasnt the child allowed to make up her own mind whether she wants to believe or not.She is new to the school and now through no fault of her own she will be branded more trouble than shes worth.
The principal and teacher are there to help every student and particularly the children with special needs.They wont have the time or inclination to the arguing with this parent,he has enrolled his child in a catholic school so they have assumed he has no problem with believing in God.If he rolls up or sends an email he will be entertained for approximately five minutes and then religion class will proceed as before.
We all have to suck it up,it is trivial really when you see the plight of the Palestinian Children.

Read the OP PROPERLY

bajer101 · 10-09-2014 7:27pm

Mary63 wrote: »

Why wasnt the child allowed to make up her own mind whether she wants to believe or not.She is new to the school and now through no fault of her own she will be branded more trouble than shes worth.
The principal and teacher are there to help every student and particularly the children with special needs.They wont have the time or inclination to the arguing with this parent,he has enrolled his child in a catholic school so they have assumed he has no problem with believing in God.If he rolls up or sends an email he will be entertained for approximately five minutes and then religion class will proceed as before.
We all have to suck it up,it is trivial really when you see the plight of the Palestinian Children.

This should be good.....

Bannasidhe · 10-09-2014 7:27pm

hinault wrote: »

It shows that even where there is the widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education, more and more parents are choosing to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

Where exactly is this area with a 'widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education'??

Could you point it out on a map for me please?

vibe666 · 10-09-2014 7:27pm

bajer101 wrote: »

And here we go again...It's like the zombie apocalypse!

Groundhog Zombie Day Apocalypse!

pwurple · 10-09-2014 7:28pm

Gerry T wrote: »

Its easy to agree that we should care and love each other. Not to steal or cause harm. These principals are found in most religions and moral societies. But people do have an issue with certain stances of the church, such as Abortion, Gay people, the churches wealth, the church putting its own reputation and monies ahead of abuse victims...

As someone who speaks to the clergy about this kind of thing, there are an awful lot of people within the church who agree completely with that and are trying to change from the inside. I don't think jesus would have the anti-gay stance that some people have today in his name, for example.

I would be very happy with State patronage with a general RE class covering all religious and non-religious belief systems. That's what children need in my opinion, a balanced approach to education.

In my experience, that is what is taught. Various religions are discussed in the RE classes.

There are extra bits in catholic schools for the sacrament years, but some of that is outside school... In the evenings, on saturdays etc.

Other faiths don't really have the sacrament thing anyway. It's a bit of an anomoly globally. Guess the irish catholics like any excuse to par-tay!

eviltwin · 10-09-2014 7:29pm

Mary63 wrote: »

Why wasnt the child allowed to make up her own mind whether she wants to believe or not.She is new to the school and now through no fault of her own she will be branded more trouble than shes worth.
The principal and teacher are there to help every student and particularly the children with special needs.They wont have the time or inclination to the arguing with this parent,he has enrolled his child in a catholic school so they have assumed he has no problem with believing in God.If he rolls up or sends an email he will be entertained for approximately five minutes and then religion class will proceed as before.
We all have to suck it up,it is trivial really when you see the plight of the Palestinian Children.

I've read the first line over and over and still am flummoxed by it. How do tell someone what to believe, they either do or they don't.

Mary63 · 10-09-2014 7:29pm

I also dont want our teacher and principals time taken up with this splitting of hairs.I would prefer an educate together school but the logistics of getting to one dont suit me.I dont care if my child participate in buddhism,Jehovahs witness brainwashing etc as long as its only for a mimimum amount of time.The Op couldnt even be bothered establishing how much time is actually spent on religion,he assumed it would be nominal because its all rubbish to him,he now finds its more than he bargained for so he wants the curriculum revised to suit him.
Yes,option three,go back to Educate together or ask the muslim cleric who wants us to be more inclusive,can he enrol your athiest daughter.

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 7:29pm

Mary63 wrote: »

Why wasnt the child allowed to make up her own mind whether she wants to believe or not.

Read the thread,
The child did make their mind up,

.If he rolls up or sends an email he will be entertained for approximately five minutes and then religion class will proceed as before.

Clearly you've not taken 2seconds to read the OP's posts,
If you had you'd have seen that the school was very accommodating and the school are happy to enable the child to opt out of religion.

So much for incorrect your assumptions

We all have to suck it up,

No we certainly don't have to suck it up, the OP has EU law, Irish law and the constitution on their side

it is trivial really when you see the plight of the Palestinian Children.

Oh I agree, it is rather trivial in the larger scale of things, but that certainly doesn't mean we don't do anything to change the situation.

If you didn't do anything about stuff that was considered trivial considered to the death of children then you wouldn't do anything about anything else from water charges to car problems to whatever...after all they are trivial :pac:

GreeBo · 10-09-2014 7:30pm

vibe666 wrote: »

And again, the point you are attempting and failing to make is based on your continued misconception that the OP had prior knowledge that his child was about to decide that she didn't believe in god, which he did not and which he, and myself and several others at this stage have repeatedly stated.

Until you correct your misconception about the prior god related conversation the OP had with his daughter, we aren't going to get anywhere.

vibe666 wrote: »

I almost feel like we should hug or something?

The OP had also stated that his daughter was baptised at her mother's request and that he wasn't that bothered at the time either way and that he was leaving it up to her to decide when she was older.

If his daughter hadn't decided at that particular moment that it was all silly and that she didn't believe in god, AND the teacher hadn't reacted so badly then we wouldn't be here debating it at all and she may well have gone another year or so before she realised how stupid it all is and made her communion, had her father watch and take pictures (whilst quietly thinking to himself how bonkers it all is), got herself a wodge of cash and then jacked it all in at a later date once the financial incentive was gone like most good Irish Catholics.

Hug?
Eww so gay!

And in the schools defence, the specifically asked for the baptismal cert...if the parent was leaving it up to the child to decide, thats the time.

Again, I dont specifically agree with how it was handled, but looking at it from a teachers point of view, the child in question dropped a bomb in the middle of a class full of other kids out of nowhere.

vibe666 · 10-09-2014 7:31pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Where exactly is this area with a 'widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education'??

Could you point it out on a map for me please?

The irony in all of this being that a (according to their own enrollment figures) a full 50% of Educate Together pupils are registered as Catholic.

eviltwin · 10-09-2014 7:32pm

Mary63 wrote: »

Why wasnt the child allowed to make up her own mind whether she wants to believe or not.She is new to the school and now through no fault of her own she will be branded more trouble than shes worth.
The principal and teacher are there to help every student and particularly the children with special needs.They wont have the time or inclination to the arguing with this parent,he has enrolled his child in a catholic school so they have assumed he has no problem with believing in God.If he rolls up or sends an email he will be entertained for approximately five minutes and then religion class will proceed as before.
We all have to suck it up,it is trivial really when you see the plight of the Palestinian Children.

I can remember a time special needs kids were told to go to special schools because integration with other children was too much trouble for the schools. Thankfully we've changed and schools are all the better for it. Let's embrace everyone in our schools regardless of religious persuasion and stop expecting everyone to be Catholic or shut up. Segregation doesn't work.

PopePalpatine · 10-09-2014 7:33pm

Mary63 wrote: »

I also dont want our teacher and principals time taken up with this splitting of hairs.I would prefer an educate together school but the logistics of getting to one dont suit me.I dont care if my child participate in buddhism,Jehovahs witness brainwashing etc as long as its only for a mimimum amount of time.The Op couldnt even be bothered establishing how much time is actually spent on religion,he assumed it would be nominal because its all rubbish to him,he now finds its more than he bargained for so he wants the curriculum revised to suit him.
Yes,option three,go back to Educate together or ask the muslim cleric who wants us to be more inclusive,can he enrol your athiest daughter.

That's the EXACT situation OP's in!

I live in Trim in Co. Meath. It's in Dublin's commuter belt, and yet, the nearest ET school is 15km away. It's not some backwater in a Gaeltacht.

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 7:33pm

Mary63 wrote: »

The Op couldnt even be bothered establishing how much time is actually spent on religion,he assumed it would be nominal because its all rubbish to him,

Catholic religion takes up approx 10% of school time at primary level, this is equal to maths and english.

Its certainly not a small amount of time, if its not an interest to the OP's child then he';s right to not waste his kids time doing a class that takes up so much time.

I dont care if my child participate in buddhism,Jehovahs witness brainwashing etc as long as its only for a mimimum amount of time.

So given you think the catholic schools don't spend alot of time you'd be happy with say 10% of your kids education at primary level being spend on the Islamic faith? Good for you!,

I know I'd much rather have a far more active involvement in a childs education and actually take an interest in what they spend time at in school.

Mary63 · 10-09-2014 7:41pm

The school arent accomodating at all,they make no provision for children who dont want to participate other than telling them to bring in their nintendos while the whole of second class is taken up with making Holy Communion.
Ruairi Quinn with the eU,Irish law and the constitution didnt get very far with his reform proposals.
The facts are most irish people dont care what goes on in school,they are up to their arses in debt,dropping children to school,rushing to work,rushing to pick them up,its never ending.They know the local catholic school provides an excellent education,its free,its convenient,they know the rules of the club,they like the communion and dont want it taken out of school because that means they have to bring the child to church at the weekend.They are sick and tired of being called hypoctrites and sheep,they know they are but couldnt care less really.
They arent using their children to stand on points of principle either,this whole situation is very unfair to a seven year old trying to fit into a new school.

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 7:45pm

Mary63 wrote: »

They are sick and tired of being called hypoctrites and sheep,they know they are but couldnt care less really.

Its a sad reflection on this society when you think that so many parents just don't care about the upbringing of their children, from your previous post you also don't seem too concerned about aspects of it either.

Of course some don't, they just tick the boxes and go along with stuff for the sake of social conformity.

But thankfully many others like the OP don't and they play an active part in the upbringing of their child. The op should be extremely proud of their child and themselves as they've taken an active part in things and they have a child that knows what they want....or in this case, not want

bajer101 · 10-09-2014 7:49pm

Mary63 wrote: »

The school arent accomodating at all,they make no provision for children who dont want to participate other than telling them to bring in their nintendos while the whole of second class is taken up with making Holy Communion.
Ruairi Quinn with the eU,Irish law and the constitution didnt get very far with his reform proposals.
The facts are most irish people dont care what goes on in school,they are up to their arses in debt,dropping children to school,rushing to work,rushing to pick them up,its never ending.They know the local catholic school provides an excellent education,its free,its convenient,they know the rules of the club,they like the communion and dont want it taken out of school because that means they have to bring the child to church at the weekend.They are sick and tired of being called hypoctrites and sheep,they know they are but couldnt care less really.
They arent using their children to stand on points of principle either,this whole situation is very unfair to a seven year old trying to fit into a new school.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say here. But I'm actually too weary at this stage to go through the points I disagree with. I know this is a long thread, but if you take a bit of time and skim through it I think you will find it a very interesting read. I certainly learnt a lot and thanks to the information in this thread I was able to come to an amenable solution with the school. For the second day in a row, my daughter had a good day in school (nintendoless).

Gerry T · 10-09-2014 7:51pm

Mary your great crack, I get it now....your on taking the piss out of us for being repetitive and answering so many posters that say the same thing.

Mary63 · 10-09-2014 7:57pm

What has this thought the child,that speaking out inappropriately gets you into trouble.There is a time and a place for everything and enrolling in a catholic schools means you respect what others believe.What about the other children in the class,maybe they were upset at being told there was no such thing as god.
Where did i say parents dont care about the upbringing of their children,why do you assume that parents who choose a catholic school for convenience dont care about their children,some of the parents in fact probably quite a lot could be devout catholics,dont forget most have been educated through this ethos,have turned out fine so will choose the same for their children.
The vast majority of parents are happy with the status quo,also at least half of the children in ET schools will make their holy communion and confirmation outside school.Maybe places should be reserved for Athiest children,those parents who take up places in educate together but still go along with catholism for the sake of social conformity should have the school place withdrawn.

Pwindedd · 10-09-2014 7:57pm

The like it or lump it attitude of numerous posters now, coming from a clearly pro catholic standpoint, is frankly quite disheartening. The national school patronage is around 90% catholic. Yet 50% of the already very limited ET places are taken by "catholic" children. Imagine I were to suggest these children to "go back to there own schools". I would be quite rightly castigated. I'm usually quite tolerant of other peoples beliefs but on several occasions I have found myself quite angered by the intolerence of some Catholics on this thread. Just because you are in a majority it does not mean you have de facto rights over the minority. Quite pompous. All children should have the exact same access to education. Non believers shouldn't have to face moving house, long commutes or daily disruption just to attend school.

lukesmom · 10-09-2014 7:59pm

Cabaal wrote: »

But if he didn't, what if he changed his mind?

If say when he teaches adulthood and decides he wants to leave the catholic church and change to another faith or just doesn't believe it all anymore and considers himself an atheist would you be ok with this? Would you respect the decision?

I ask because you can never just assume what people really think. I know a number of people who at the time really came across like they really wanted to do the communion stuff etc, hell they even part of church choirs and one even remains so...but they don't consider themselves catholic anymore and were never really fans of the whole thing.

You might ask why they still sing in a choir, well they like the people they sing with and they like music

I will support him no matter what he believes. He's my son. He could tell me he believes that aliens control the Earth and I'd respect him. But while he's at school he will go through the catholic system or ethos.

vibe666 · 10-09-2014 8:01pm

Mary63 wrote: »

I also dont want our teacher and principals time taken up with this splitting of hairs.I would prefer an educate together school but the logistics of getting to one dont suit me.I dont care if my child participate in buddhism,Jehovahs witness brainwashing etc as long as its only for a mimimum amount of time.The Op couldnt even be bothered establishing how much time is actually spent on religion,he assumed it would be nominal because its all rubbish to him,he now finds its more than he bargained for so he wants the curriculum revised to suit him.
Yes,option three,go back to Educate together or ask the muslim cleric who wants us to be more inclusive,can he enrol your athiest daughter.

This has already been covered multiple times if you bothered to actually read the thread before spouting this factually incorrect nonsense.

The Irish constitution specifically states that every child in the state is entitled to an education in ANY school that receives state funding, regardless of the religious (or not) affiliation of the child or the ethos of the school, without that child having any RE they do not believe in forced onto them.

This applies equally to a Catholic child in a non-Catholic school as it does for a non-Catholic child in a Catholic school.

Additionally, the OP has already stated numerous times that he didn't have any problem with his daughter receiving RE UNTIL she had decided herself that she didn't believe in god during her first RE lesson at her new school and she then had to deal with an overzealous teacher attempting to force his child into believing in a god that she did not want to, in direct contravention of her rights as both an Irish citizen and her basic human rights as a child living in the EU.

Nobody is asking for a curriculum to be changed, all he has asked for (and has already received, very amicably by the school) is for his daughter to have the rights she is legally entitled to.

Again, much like several other posters here, you are continually arguing against a point that doesn't exist that has already been corrected by the OP and other posters multiple times, so please stop.

PopePalpatine · 10-09-2014 8:05pm

Mary63 wrote: »

What has this thought the child,that speaking out inappropriately gets you into trouble.There is a time and a place for everything and enrolling in a catholic schools means you respect what others believe.What about the other children in the class,maybe they were upset at being told there was no such thing as god.

All she said was "I don't believe in God". As for "respecting what others believe", the teacher's and principal's threats towards a 7-YEAR-OLD doesn't seem respectful to me.

Daughter forced to believe in God

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