Daughter forced to believe in God

Debornie · 09-09-2014 10:41am

Well, let me start by saying that I do not agree with the approach of the school. I am not a catholic and believe that you can choose whatever school you want to send your child too. But can I also say if you don't want to eat Chicken, don't go to KFC. If you put your child into a school that has a Catholic Ethos then expect that they are going to teach their religion and there is not a lot you can do about it. I have in the past had my own son in this situation and the school were very good at letting him bring his own books in to entertain him during religion and even let him stay with another class when they went to the church or I would collect him early on those days. But again, my opinion is that you can hardly complain that they are teaching your kid catholic stuff when you put her in a catholic school.

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 10:42am

GreeBo wrote: »

How is that relevant?
If your child has special needs that are not obvious, tell the bloody school and dont put everyone, especially your child, into an awkward position.

"Special needs"?

You seriously might want to choose your words much more wisely, this is special needs as far as the Dept Of Education is concerned - http://www.education.ie/en/The-Education-System/Special-Education/

A none belief in a supernatural invisible being isn't a "special need" or any form of disability, its a basic human right to believe in what you want to...or not as the case may be.

You might want to show some respect to the op and his daughter,

Imagine your child doesnt believe in Santa, do you think the school would/should be fine with your child telling everyone that Santa doesnt exist?

I went to school with somebody who didn't believe in Santa from a very young age....their parents were very very poor so they took the decision to tell them,

They never went around telling other students in a vindictive way....likely the same as the OP's 7 year old didn't do so either.

Did the school threaten them...no of course not, they'd be idiots if they had.
:rolleyes:

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 10:43am

GreeBo wrote: »

So you think that its fine for the parent not to inform the school of their childs special (in this context) needs and for the child to explain this to the teacher themselves?

no, i think it is entirely irrelevant when a teacher and principle in charge of the health and well-being of a child decide that the best course of action when a child questions belief in god is to immediately threaten them for not believing and in doing so breach their Irish constitutional and EU human rights.

GreeBo wrote: »

I can see how the teacher panicked though, a room full of kids all going to start wondering "why doesnt she believe in God?"

i think if a primary school teacher in a catholic school can't handle a 7 year old kid questioning the existence of their imaginary friend without losing the plot and threatening them with expulsion, then *maybe* they're in the wrong job.

GreeBo wrote: »

If your child has special needs that are not obvious, tell the bloody school and dont put everyone, especially your child, into an awkward position.

his child doesn't have any special needs, what she has are the same constitutional and human rights under Irish and EU law that every other child in the country has a right to.

if YOUR child didn't believe in santa and was threatened with expulsion by their school for that lack of belief in a clear breach of their rights, would you be happy about it and think it was a reasonable response against a 7 year old child?

lazygal · 09-09-2014 10:43am

Debornie wrote: »

Well, let me start by saying that I do not agree with the approach of the school. I am not a catholic and believe that you can choose whatever school you want to send your child too. But can I also say if you don't want to eat Chicken, don't go to KFC. If you put your child into a school that has a Catholic Ethos then expect that they are going to teach their religion and there is not a lot you can do about it. I have in the past had my own son in this situation and the school were very good at letting him bring his own books in to entertain him during religion and even let him stay with another class when they went to the church or I would collect him early on those days. But again, my opinion is that you can hardly complain that they are teaching your kid catholic stuff when you put her in a catholic school.

But the state requires parents to educate their children, and funds the state school system. If the only school locally is religious, why should parents not of that faith be required to be religious and make their children conform just because there are no alternatives?

StopYa · 09-09-2014 10:43am

The Rules are the rules if you decided to send your child to a catholic school what do you expect and expecting your child to make a decision on their religious beliefs at age 7 are ya mental, they are going to follow the same beliefs as their mummy and daddy, theyre are like sponges at that age and are just repeating what they hear from you. Pulling the kid out of the class is just going to draw more attention to her , let her be a child she shouldnt have to suffer a bad childhood because you have a problem with catholic faith yet decide to send her to a catholic school , defies logic.

Gerry T · 09-09-2014 10:44am

GreeBo wrote: »

I do think its the parents fault for putting the child and the teacher in that position.

Do you not think the teacher should have more sense ? Teachers should know that out of a group of children not all are catholic and for a teacher to assume this is hard to believe. As the thread has pointed out people have a right to non-religious education. If a school wants to set a rule that all students are to attend RE then the school shouldn't accept Govt. funding.
Moving forward Catholic schools State Funded Should have to get a parents permission for a child to be given RE classes. And the selection criteria should not include any questions regarding the parents/childs religious beliefs

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 10:44am

Debornie wrote: »

If you put your child into a school that has a Catholic Ethos then expect that they are going to teach their religion and there is not a lot you can do about it. .

I think you'll find there is alot you can do about it,

Just because you enroll and child into a catholic ethos school does not mean that the school can force the religion on your child.

lazygal · 09-09-2014 10:48am

StopYa wrote: »

The Rules are the rules if you decided to send your child to a catholic school what do you expect and expecting your child to make a decision on their religious beliefs at age 7 are ya mental, they are going to follow the same beliefs as their mummy and daddy, theyre are like sponges at that age and are just repeating what they hear from you. Pulling the kid out of the class is just going to draw more attention to her , let her be a child she shouldnt have to suffer a bad childhood because you have a problem with catholic faith yet decide to send her to a catholic school , defies logic.

And if the only available school is catholic, what should a parent do? Go along with beliefs they don't follow? How is not raising a child in the catholic faith making a child suffer a bad childhood? Are those of other faiths making their children suffer too, when they enroll them in the only available local school?

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 10:49am

StopYa wrote: »

The Rules are the rules

this is exactly right. the rules are the rules and the Irish constitution and EU law ARE the rules and having a catholic "ethos" doesn't excuse any school from abiding by those rules.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 10:50am

OP here again. Rather than try to respond individually to a lot of posts where people don't seem to have read the thread, I'll just do a quick recap and clarify a few points.

I did not have a conversation with the school about not wanting my daughter to learn Religion, because the situation only arose after she announced that she didn't believe in God. Prior to this, I actually wasn't too bothered about her doing Religion classes or making her Communion. While I am an atheist I have never had in-depth discussions with her about God or the big bang expansion, as these concepts are too difficult for a child to understand. I have always told her that she can make up her own mind about this. I have told her that I don't believe in God, but that plenty of other people do, including her mother and other members of our family. Regarding having her baptised - that is irrelevant, but for the record, it was her mother who wanted that done, but I now have sole custody. I may have ended up getting her baptised anyway, as it seems to be a prerequisite to gain admittance to over 90% of schools in the country.

The problem arose when she announced in class that she did not believe in God, and the big problem for both me and her was with how the school seemed to handle this. I started this thread looking for advice on how to proceed. Thanks to the advice I have received, I now know that I am perfectly entitled to have her opt of Religion and this is what I am pursuing. I have written to the Principal and explained the situation and also explained the situation to my daughter.

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 10:57am

lazygal wrote: »

And if the only available school is catholic, what should a parent do? Go along with beliefs they don't follow? How is not raising a child in the catholic faith making a child suffer a bad childhood? Are those of other faiths making their children suffer too, when they enroll them in the only available local school?

There was one protestant who went to the catholic ethos primary and secondary schools i went to, it was child abuse I tell you...believing in the wrong faith and all that

The reality is nobody in the classes cared, we didn't seem them as different or odd or anything. He was well liked and all that.
He still didn't attend any of the religion classes though or the masses, we used to think he was awful lucky to avoid the masses.

StopYa · 09-09-2014 11:01am

Hi Lazygal

if you read original post contributor wrote"The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this" , so now the kid is traumatized because he or she is going into school repeating what they hear at home and getting picked on, let the kid be a child she should only be worried about fitting into the school making friends not worried about is there or isnt there a god she has all her life for that. Ya cant change the rules to suit yourself would you go driving down the road on the wrong side of the road.

Delirium · 09-09-2014 11:02am

StopYa wrote: »

Hi Lazygal

if you read original post contributor wrote"The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this" , so now the kid is traumatized because he or she is going into school repeating what they hear at home and getting picked on, let the kid be a child she should only be worried about fitting into the school making friends not worried about is there or isnt there a god she has all her life for that. Ya cant change the rules to suit yourself would you go driving down the road on the wrong side of the road.

I really doubt that Catholic schools have rules that allowing for bullying of non-Catholic children.

lazygal · 09-09-2014 11:04am

StopYa wrote: »

Hi Lazygal

if you read original post contributor wrote"The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this" , so now the kid is traumatized because he or she is going into school repeating what they hear at home and getting picked on, let the kid be a child she should only be worried about fitting into the school making friends not worried about is there or isnt there a god she has all her life for that. Ya cant change the rules to suit yourself would you go driving down the road on the wrong side of the road.

So your solution to bullying is for the child being bullied to conform? What about later on, when everyone else is doing something, the parent decides that's not safe, but the child wants to do it anyway, should the parent let everyone else make their decisions? If a child is bullied because they wear glasses, do you let them work away without the glasses because then the bullies will stop? I don't intend for my children to worry about whether there's a god, but if they ask I'll answer honestly that I don't think there is but some people do and everyone is different, and being different is absolutely fine.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 11:05am

StopYa wrote: »

Hi Lazygal

if you read original post contributor wrote"The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this" , so now the kid is traumatized because he or she is going into school repeating what they hear at home and getting picked on, let the kid be a child she should only be worried about fitting into the school making friends not worried about is there or isnt there a god she has all her life for that. Ya cant change the rules to suit yourself would you go driving down the road on the wrong side of the road.

If someone bullies my child I don't get my child to acquiesce to the bully, I get the bully to stop the bullying. I am letting my child be a child and she will not be indoctrinated with Religion that she has no interest in. I am not changing any rules to suit myself, I am availing of the rules of the Irish Constitution and EU law to opt her out of Religion.

shruikan2553 · 09-09-2014 11:07am

Has this thread broken the record of amount of people who read the OP and take out a response from the book of poor responses given out by the church? It seems like every page there is someone pointing out it is a catholic school as if the OP had just made a mistake without knowing and meant to send their child to one of many schools in the area that cater for everyone.

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 11:08am

StopYa wrote: »

Hi Lazygal

if you read original post contributor wrote"The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this" , so now the kid is traumatized because he or she is going into school repeating what they hear at home and getting picked on, let the kid be a child she should only be worried about fitting into the school making friends not worried about is there or isnt there a god she has all her life for that. Ya cant change the rules to suit yourself would you go driving down the road on the wrong side of the road.

Oh so you think catholic ethos means catholic kids can bully non-catholics and the school is ok with it?
:rolleyes:

If what you suggested did happen then the school is required by the Dept Of Education to deal with the bullys.

If a child gets bullied because they have glasses which are required for them to see etc, you don't tell then kid to go to school without glasses...you deal with the bullys.

The same applys here, if somebody doesn't believe in god you can't force them to believe in a god just to "fit in" to even suggest such a thing is seriously ignorant.

Your attitude to bullying is seriously worrying and I hope that you don't interact with children on a day to day basis as they'll get no support from you if they are being bullied...they'll just be told to conform!

Nobody is changing any rules, the op has the right under the constitution of this country. Unless you think the constitution is meaningless?

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 11:08am

StopYa wrote: »

Hi Lazygal

if you read original post contributor wrote"The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this" , so now the kid is traumatized because he or she is going into school repeating what they hear at home and getting picked on, let the kid be a child she should only be worried about fitting into the school making friends not worried about is there or isnt there a god she has all her life for that. Ya cant change the rules to suit yourself would you go driving down the road on the wrong side of the road.

there you go again with that whole not reading the thread, or cherry picking what you want to see to suit yourself whether its there or not.

the "rules" that you keep talking about are the Irish Constitution and Irish and EU Law, all of which support the OP in this case, NOT any kind of school "ethos".

The child (and every other child in the Republic, has a constitutional right to choose their own religious beliefs (or to choose none) and no school, regardless of their ethos has any right to try and force any beliefs onto them. none. not even a little bit, under any circumstances whatsoever.

Peregrinus · 09-09-2014 11:09am

bajer101 wrote: »

If someone bullies my child I don't get my child to acquiesce to the bully, I get the bully to stop the bullying. I am letting my child be a child and she will not be indoctrinated with Religion that she has no interest in. I am not changing any rules to suit myself, I am availing of the rules of the Irish Constitution and EU law to opt her out of Religion.

. . . and, I don't doubt, notifying the school of any bullying that she experiences that seems to be related to her religious views, and expecting (and if necessary demanding) that they address it.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 11:14am

Reading the replies from some people here, I am now a lot less surprised about the treatment my daughter received. I had no idea that such attitudes still existed among the under 70s.

StopYa · 09-09-2014 11:15am

At 7 years of age ? Their brains are that developped, they ve read enough books studied different religions, read about darwin, read about evoloution, nothing is proven, no one fully knows if there is or isnt a god. and you are telling me that a 7 year old is able to make a decision on whether there is or isnt a god are you serious, what has got wearing glasses got to do with anything, The kid shouldnt be worried about religion, theyre not going to become a priest because they sit through a religion class like a contributor said there was a prodestant in his class just read a book during the religion class, didnt make a song and dance about it.

IITYWYBMAD · 09-09-2014 11:19am

GreeBo wrote: »

So you think that its fine for the parent not to inform the school of their childs special (in this context) needs and for the child to explain this to the teacher themselves?
.

Wow...just wow...

FullblownRose · 09-09-2014 11:19am

So how are schools like that, preparing their catholic students for the wider world again..a world with many atheists?

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 11:25am

StopYa wrote: »

At 7 years of age ? Their brains are that developped, they ve read enough books studied different religions, read about darwin, read about evoloution, nothing is proven, no one fully knows if there is or isnt a god. and you are telling me that a 7 year old is able to make a decision on whether there is or isnt a god are you serious, what has got wearing glasses got to do with anything, The kid shouldnt be worried about religion, theyre not going to become a priest because they sit through a religion class like a contributor said there was a prodestant in his class just read a book during the religion class, didnt make a song and dance about it.

Of course she is not able to decide yet if there is or isn't a God. She will make her own mind up when she is older. In the meantime, she won't be indoctrinated. I originally wasn't too bothered that she was doing Religion, but now I am delighted that she won't have her mind poisoned.

You say that a seven year old isn't able to decide if there is or isn't a God, so why are you advocating that it is ok for them to be taught that there is? She didn't make a song and dance about anything - she simply said that she didn't believe in God when her teacher told her that there was. She refused to go along with that because, as she explained to me, that would be a lie and that is wrong. Now she will read a book or do something else during Religion class which is what you are suggesting. And I also suspect that since she stood up for herself, that the kids who were initially teasing her will now see the whole situation in a different light and could very well rally to her. I'm proud as punch of her, to be honest.

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 11:27am

StopYa wrote: »

At 7 years of age ? Their brains are that developped, they ve read enough books studied different religions, read about darwin, read about evoloution, nothing is proven, no one fully knows if there is or isnt a god. and you are telling me that a 7 year old is able to make a decision on whether there is or isnt a god are you serious,

And yet your happy for say 86% of parents in this country to tell their children that there is a god and its a christian god at that. Why is that?

Is it because its the right type of belief?

Just to get some information here, are you a christian/catholic?

what has got wearing glasses got to do with anything,

Oh you want to try and direct away from the fact that you showed yourself up...ok fair enough.

What has bullying got to do with any of this?,

You're the one that brought that topic up, why didn't you bring it up?

The kid shouldnt be worried about religion,

Something the two of us agree with...at last.

I fully agree, and thats why religion shouldn't be in tax payer funded schools.
It shouldn't be a subject that children have to worry about or waste time attending.

Religion is a very personal thing, its something parents should be very very involved in on every level. This means mass every Sunday and Holly day and full involvement in communion prep etc.

The reality is the opposite, most parents dislike having to go to mass and they prefer to outsource the communion prep to the state funded schools......people that do this don't really have a faith in my view.

FullblownRose · 09-09-2014 11:28am

bajer101 wrote: »

Of course she is not able to decide yet if there is or isn't a God. She will make her own mind up when she is older. In the meantime, she won't be indoctrinated. I originally wasn't too bothered that she was doing Religion, but now I am delighted that she won't have her mind poisoned.

You say that a seven year old isn't able to decide if there is or isn't a God, so why are you advocating that it is ok for them to be taught that there is? She didn't make a song and dance about anything - she simply said that she didn't believe in God when her teacher told her that there was. She refused to go along with that because, as she explained to me, that would be a lie and that is wrong. Now she will read a book or do something else during Religion class which is what you are suggesting. And I also suspect that since she stood up for herself, that the kids who were initially teasing her will now see the whole situation in a different light and could very well rally to her. I'm proud as punch of her, to be honest.

The teacher could've turned it into a learning oportunity and briefly explained to her class that some people are atheists and that that is abbsolutely fine. Then moved on with the lesson.

EunanMac · 09-09-2014 11:29am

I think you should always inform teachers of your wishes beforehand.

Has the OP gone to speak to anyone in the school yet, the OP was last week

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 11:29am

FullblownRose wrote: »

So how are schools like that, preparing their catholic students for the wider world again..a world with many atheists?

they're not,
Just like all girl schools and all boys schools are not preparing the students for a mixed sex college/workplace world.

Not exactly healthy,

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 11:31am

EunanMac wrote: »

I think you should always inform teachers of your wishes beforehand

I think you should always a thread beforehand.

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 11:41am

StopYa wrote: »

At 7 years of age ? Their brains are that developped,

You don't give children much credit do you?
In this case the OP's child is developed enough to know right from wrong and what they believe in,

The OP's child knows they don't believe in a magical invisible being and they know that claiming they do believe in the magical invisible being is a lie.

Lets look at a 7 year olds development shall we?

Period of Concrete Operations (7-12 years)

Characteristic Behavior:

Evidence for organized, logical thought. There is the ability to perform multiple classification tasks, order objects in a logical sequence, and comprehend the principle of conservation. thinking becomes less transductive and less egocentric. The child is capable of concrete problem-solving.

Some reversibility now possible (quantities moved can be restored such as in arithmetic:
3+4 = 7 and 7-4 = 3, etc.)

Class logic-finding bases to sort unlike objects into logical groups where previously it was on superficial perceived attribute such as color. Categorical labels such as “number” or animal” now available.

Seems the OP's child is well capable of logical thought, that's evident.

As the child gets older they may decide to believe in any number of the gods that exist and thats their choice, but as it stands right now they are entitled to be respect in their non belief.

Daughter forced to believe in God

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