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Driving in the middle lane

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    #32
    highdef
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭highdef


    Lets not forget that on motorways with an aux lane (such as the M50) overtaking on the inside is completely legal if one is travelling in the aux lane. So if someone is doing 90 in lane 1, I am fine to pass on the left at 100 in the aux lane. However, if the exact same situation occurs 1 lane to the right so that I am in lane 1 doing 100 and the other driver is in lane 2 doing 90 (just like the previous example), it is now illegal.

    Similarly, if I am entering the M50 onto the aux lane @ 100kmh and some gob****e is doing 80kmh or so in lane 2 just ahead of me for some unknown reason, I actually have to slow down in order to join the motorway without illegally passing said vehicle on the inside. However, if I stay in the aux lane, I can continue at 100kmh, pass the middle lane hogger in lane 2 to my right and then pull out to lane 1 (still @ 100kmh) and yet this is considered legal and completely acceptable.


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    #33
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I'm not sure "completely" legal is correct. A Gard might decide that such a manoeuvre is dangerous and book you. I have not seen anywhere it laid down that you may undertake in the auxillary lane, rather I think you may proceed to the exit in it if the main lanes are congested.


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    #34
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    If your defence is hes more wrong than me maybe you need to rethink what youre doing


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    #35
    highdef
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭highdef


    corktina wrote: »
    I'm not sure "completely" legal is correct. A Gard might decide that such a manoeuvre is dangerous and book you. I have not seen anywhere it laid down that you may undertake in the auxillary lane, rather I think you may proceed to the exit in it if the main lanes are congested.

    I may be incorrect but as far as I am aware the aux lane is considered to be separate from the main carriageway and that is why overtaking on the inside is an ok thing to do. Saying that, I am only ever in the aux lane when I am entering the motorway or if I am taking the next exit, i would not use the aux lane as a loophole lane to overtake traffic on the inside if I was not taking the follwoing exit.


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    #36
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    highdef wrote: »
    I may be incorrect but as far as I am aware the aux lane is considered to be separate from the main carriageway and that is why overtaking on the inside is an ok thing to do. Saying that, I am only ever in the aux lane when I am entering the motorway or if I am taking the next exit, i would not use the aux lane as a loophole lane to overtake traffic on the inside if I was not taking the follwoing exit.

    You may well be right as I heard the same said before, but I don't know if it is actually the Law


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    #37
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,616 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Middle lane hoggers wreck my head. I'm on a motorbike most of the time and if someone is hogging the middle lane and I want to get by them then I'm supposed to change from the driving lane to the overtaking lane, then move from there to the second overtaking lane, move back into the middle lane and then back into the driving lane. So to get beyond them I'm supposed to make four lane changes because of their ignorance. At this stage I just undertake them and have my hand ready to explode the throttle if they move in on me when I'm in their blind spot. The way I see it is that motorbike driving is already dangerous enough in that you don't have the luxury of airbags and roll cages. A crash on a motorway for a motorcyclist will almost certainly end in death because even if the biker survives the fall off their bike they are highly unlikely to survive what happens next, I.e. a line of traffic coming at you when you're lying flat on the ground. So a motorway is not a good place to come off a bike yet these middle lane hoggers are forcing us to do four lane changes to get beyond them. Feck that, in my mind undertaking a car has a lower risk profile and is safer that changing lane four times to get beyond it. So I'll undertake, I'd prefer not to but if something is safer for me to do then I'm going to do it, even if it is against the rules of the road.


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    #38
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    I was driving on the N4 inbound past woodies Lucan.

    I was in lane 1 (inside) doing 80, no cars in middle lane, but I undertook a car doing 70ish in lane 3. Did I break the law?


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    #39
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    I was driving on the N4 inbound past woodies Lucan.

    I was in lane 1 (inside) doing 80, no cars in middle lane, but I undertook a car doing 70ish in lane 3. Did I break the law?

    Yes, technically. Youre not allowed to pass cars on the inside. Obviously what you did was not dangerous, but there is no provision to exclude scenarios where there is an empty lane between you and the car.


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    #40
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    captain_irish wrote: »
    The definition of traffic in the dictionary is "vehicles moving along a public highway" so it doesn't matter what speed their doing if it's slower than you their considered slow moving traffic. Legal to undertake

    I would be very interested to see how a judge would interpret this. The definition of slow moving traffic is clear as day in my head; to me it means where there are two (or more) lanes of heavily built up traffic, all moving at roughly the same speed (think the outbound Naas Rd any weekday evening). As far as I am concerned, one car travelling below the speed limit does not constitute slow moving traffic, and I would be amazed if a judge were to see it differently, but Id love to know how it would be ruled.

    One thing to bear in mind is that (to the best of my knowledge anyway) there is no legal right given to anyone to travel at the speed limit. Just because you encounter a car that is travelling below the speed limit, it does not give you the right to flount the law in order to pass them.


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    #41
    ProudDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 11,569 ✭✭✭✭ProudDUB


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    I was driving on the N4 inbound past woodies Lucan.

    I was in lane 1 (inside) doing 80, no cars in middle lane, but I undertook a car doing 70ish in lane 3. Did I break the law?

    No, it is ok to pass another car, if you are in the left lane, as long as the left lane is the lane that you have already been driving in & you remain driving in it. Illegal undertaking is when you move into the left lane to over take a car & then you move back into the right lane again.


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    #42
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    ProudDUB wrote: »
    No. It is ok to pass another car, if you are in the left lane, as long as the left lane is the lane that you have already been driving in & you remain driving in it. Illegal undertaking is when you move into the left lane to over take a car & then you move back into the right lane again.

    You got anything to back that up? Because the traffic laws make no mention of changing lanes, just that its not legal to pass a car on the left hand side.


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    #43
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    ProudDUB wrote: »
    No, it is ok to pass another car, if you are in the left lane, as long as the left lane is the lane that you have already been driving in & you remain driving in it. Illegal undertaking is when you move into the left lane to over take a car & then you move back into the right lane again.

    This is very incorrect.
    Illegal undertaking takes place when you pass another vehicle on its left side, no matter if you needed to change lanes before and after that passing or not.


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    #44
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    ProudDUB wrote: »
    No, it is ok to pass another car, if you are in the left lane, as long as the left lane is the lane that you have already been driving in & you remain driving in it. Illegal undertaking is when you move into the left lane to over take a car & then you move back into the right lane again.

    That is definitely bad advice. Drive on the left, pass on the right is the rule


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    #45
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    cython wrote: »
    Certain circumstances, yes, but as I've said several times on thread the presence of the "slow-moving traffic" qualifier on scenario c makes it hard to state with certainty that that can be applied to normal motorway/dual carriageway conditions (as opposed to gridlocked times on the likes of the M50)

    The writing is indeed confusing. The rules in Italy are very similar, including one about "undertaking" that is almost word-by-word identical to the Irish one, as it states that undertaking is permitted in "slow moving traffic".

    That said, years ago a few cases of people caught "undertaking" a left lane hogger (circulation is reverse there, keep in mind) went up to Court; The outcome was that while it is preferrable not to undertake a driver that is driving in the wrong lane (and possibly is driving distracted), the maneuver per se can't be classified as a sanctionable "undertake" as the passing driver simply kept making progress ahead - in such scenario, the violation was on the part of the hogger who, quite simply, caused an obstruction to other road users and violated the "always drive on the rightmost lane" rule.

    Of course we're talking different systems but, as the rule in question is very similar, it might be worth noticing that the Court/judge deemed a lane-hogger driving below the posted speed limit to be creating the conditions necessary for undertaking to be legal. It's not clear cut, unfortunately.


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    #46
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Id love to have faith in our legal system to come to such a ruling, but I dont think Ill be holding my breath! Two wrongs of course never make a right, but it absolutely makes sense in my eyes to continue driving in the left hand lane to pass a middle lane hogger rather than having to cross two lanes, twice, in order to pass them on the right.


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    #47
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    In Poland undertaking is legal, yet it happens quite rarely. Its seen as bad driving ethique, especially on motorways, so not many people do it.
    But on lane hoggers its good to be able to undertake one legally.

    Funny though that I can see undertqking much more often in Ireland where its illegal, than in Poland where its legal.


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    #48
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    CiniO wrote: »
    In Poland undertaking is legal, yet it happens quite rarely. Its seen as bad driving ethique, especially on motorways, so not many people do it.
    But on lane hoggers its good to be able to undertake one legally.

    Funny though that I can see undertqking much more often in Ireland where its illegal, than in Poland where its legal.

    I always enjoy learning about driving iin Poland.


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    #49
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    CiniO wrote: »
    In Poland undertaking is legal, yet it happens quite rarely. Its seen as bad driving ethique, especially on motorways, so not many people do it.
    But on lane hoggers its good to be able to undertake one legally.

    Funny though that I can see undertqking much more often in Ireland where its illegal, than in Poland where its legal.

    Why is it seen as bad etiquette? If its legal then surely drivers just learn to expect it?


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    #50
    Sobanek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭Sobanek


    djimi wrote: »
    Why is it seen as bad etiquette? If its legal then surely drivers just learn to expect it?

    It's about politeness, good behaviour and not being a prick on the road - I've let people out of narrow streets, flashed my lights to let them change into my lane and haven't seen a single hand wave or hazards here (as a way of saying thank you)

    In Poland I see this all the time though.


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    #51
    celticbest
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭celticbest


    I drive the M50 from J3 (Airport) to J10 on my daily commute to and from work, I drive in Lane 1 when possible as stated in the ROTR, when required I will move into Lane 2 and on a rare occasion I will use Lane 3 to overtake if required, however if the traffic in Lanes 2 & 3 is going slowly then I have no hesitation in undertaking them.

    I travel at speeds between 90 to 100km/h & I have undertaken Garda vehicles on a regular basis and have never been stopped, I don’t tailgate & there is always room in front of me if some wants to pull in.

    If more resources where to be put in enforcing correct driver behaviour instead of speed, speed, speed then our roads might actually work more efficiently, I’ve lost count of how many times I seen a HGV hogging Lane 2 when they are going at their maximum allowed speed of 90km/h and there’s nothing ahead of them in Lane 1, Professional drivers…..


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    #52
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Sobanek wrote: »
    It's about politeness, good behaviour and not being a prick on the road - I've let people out of narrow streets, flashed my lights to let them change into my lane and haven't seen a single hand wave or hazards here (as a way of saying thank you)

    In Poland I see this all the time though.

    How is it being a prick though if its legal to pass on either side? Assuming we are talking about a proper multi-lane road and not someone overtaking by driving into a hedge or something, whats the issue? If the person is in a position to be overtaken on the inside (by driving in the middle/outside lane) then surely they just expect it to happen?


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    #53
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,649 ✭✭✭creedp


    djimi wrote: »
    Yes, technically. Youre not allowed to pass cars on the inside. Obviously what you did was not dangerous, but there is no provision to exclude scenarios where there is an empty lane between you and the car.

    He is either breaking the law or he isn't .. otherwise you are guilty of interpreting the law to suit particular circumstances. If you're asking for my advise I would suggest you should have swerved across onto the central median (hopefully no barrier to block you), overtake and then swerve back to Lane 1. Make sure you use your indicators and mirrors appropriately at all times.


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    #54
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    creedp wrote: »
    He is either breaking the law or he isn't .. otherwise you are guilty of interpreting the law to suit particular circumstances. If you're asking for my advise I would suggest you should have swerved across onto the central median (hopefully no barrier to block you), overtake and then swerve back to Lane 1. Make sure you use your indicators and mirrors appropriately at all times.

    Im not interpreting the law at all; its written down in black and white thats its illegal to pass on the left hand side. By technically I was implying that its unlikely that someone in the left lane would be done for passing someone in the right hand lane when there is an empty lane between them, but by the letter of the law its not legal.


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    #55
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    celticbest wrote: »
    I drive the M50 from J3 (Airport) to J10 on my daily commute to and from work, I drive in Lane 1 when possible as stated in the ROTR, when required I will move into Lane 2 and on a rare occasion I will use Lane 3 to overtake if required, however if the traffic in Lanes 2 & 3 is going slowly then I have no hesitation in undertaking them.

    I travel at speeds between 90 to 100km/h & I have undertaken Garda vehicles on a regular basis and have never been stopped,     I don’t tailgate & there is always room in front of me if some wants to pull in.

    If more resources where to be put in enforcing correct driver behaviour instead of speed, speed, speed then our roads might actually work more efficiently, I’ve lost count of how many times I seen a HGV hogging Lane 2 when they are going at their maximum allowed speed of 90km/h and there’s nothing ahead of them in Lane 1, Professional drivers…..

    Do you think this is ok and legal? Seriously?


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    #56
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Do you think this is ok and legal? Seriously?

    It actually might be okay, depending on the situation. I have driven the M50 before where the left lane was practically empty and the right hand lanes were both full with cars doing about 80km/h. Its a very strange road sometimes...


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    #57
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    djimi wrote: »
    It actually might be okay, depending on the situation. I have driven the M50 before where the left lane was practically empty and the right hand lanes were both full with cars doing about 80km/h. Its a very strange road sometimes...

    Undertaking (as celticbest described) is never ok nor legal.


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    #58
    celticbest
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭celticbest


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Undertaking (as celticbest described) is never ok nor legal.

    Slower moving trafficing is allowed to be undertaking, it's not my fault people don't know the ROTR, as I stated before I have undertaking Gards and have not been pulled.

    It is always however illegal to hog a lane but nothing is done about this...


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    #59
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    celticbest wrote: »
    Slower moving trafficing is allowed to be undertaking, it's not my fault people don't know the ROTR, as I stated before I have undertaking Gards and have not been pulled.

    It is always however illegal to hog a lane but nothing is done about this...

    Oh dear. Perhaps it's you who don't know the ROTR?

    As to why a Garda didn't pull you it's anyone's guess.


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    #60
    celticbest
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭celticbest


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Do you think this is ok and legal? Seriously?

    Yes I do, as per the ROTR,

    Overtaking.jpg

    Do you seriously think it okay for people to hog lanes?


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    #61
    celticbest
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭celticbest


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Oh dear.


    Mmmm.... oh, dear, oh dear......:rolleyes:


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