Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 09:04PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

But it's NOT key to the story of Ireland. It's not the most important aspect of Ireland's history by any stretch.

yes it is as much of our history involves irish speakers the gaelic lords and their poets even 19th century nationalism started with attempts to revive irish
i never said it was the most important aspect but history is a puzzle if you remove one piece the others don't quite fit

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 09:06PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We didn't abandon it because it was never ours to begin with. And that's what proponents like you fail to understand.

please explain that point it has came up before and has been refuted

Lord TSC · 20-03-2013 09:07PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

yes it is as much of our history involves irish speakers the gaelic lords and their poets even 19th century nationalism started with attempts to revive irish
i never said it was the most important aspect but history is a puzzle if you remove one piece the others don't quite fit

We're removed and evolved other aspects of our history; our tribal and barter system, how we make our clothes, the houses we live in....there's plenty of our history that we've consigned to history. That's why it's called "history".

Which is why I say again...if you want to study it as history, then you should. But don't force it on everyone else.

Iwasfrozen · 20-03-2013 09:08PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

please explain that point it has came up before and has been refuted

Our is a collective term. The irish language was never my language so it can't be ours.

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 09:11PM

opti0nal wrote: »

by imposing compulsory Irish lessons on innocent schoolchildren

would you say the same about french or maths Irish is not that bad it is simply another subject

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 09:12PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Our is a collective term. The irish language was never my language so it can't be ours.

but it was the language of the majority for a long time we don't live in a vacuum others came before us others will come after us

Iwasfrozen · 20-03-2013 09:14PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

but it was the language of the majority for a long time we don't live in a vacuum others came before us others will come after us

The people who come before us are not us. We couldn't have abandoned a language that was never ours.

laoch na mona · 20-03-2013 09:20PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It should be kept alive by those who want to keep it alive, and I'd personally hate to see it die out.

even if some people would prefer to misrepresent my side of the arguement as being founded on a non-existant hatred...

.

then we are on the same side more or less except i believe it should be used more in public service and by the government I don't know who is forcing it on you i see english everywhere even some polish hear and there

plenty on "your side" wanted irish gone completely

but seen as you and i broadly agree i think the time has come to call it a day as this thread has little new being said

ZeitgeistGlee · 20-03-2013 09:23PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

saying it is the failing of the language (an inanimate object) is based on the language alone implies that it is not "modern" ie backwards

now I agree it was?is thought wrong but the language itself continuously evolves

No it wasn't what I was saying, which would be clear if you'd quoted the whole post rather than just the few words which suited your argument.

I have never said, nor implied that any proponent of Irish is backwards and I resent the insinuation that I did.

laoch na mona wrote: »

happy now this was all within a few pages, the thread is full of this sort of thing

No it isn't, all you've done is take tiny snippets of posts and misconstrue the intent behind them.

ZeitgeistGlee · 20-03-2013 09:31PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

i have been perfectly civil and will continue to be

Between you and Coles I may end up with heavy metal poisoning from all the irony. :rolleyes:

laoch na mona wrote: »

but it was the language of the majority for a long time we don't live in a vacuum others came before us others will come after us

So does that make English "ours" now?

laoch na mona wrote: »

plenty on "your side" wanted irish gone completely

Proof? I've yet to see anyone in this thread say they want Irish abolished, even those with the worst experiences with it.

opti0nal · 20-03-2013 09:43PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

I don't know who is forcing it on you

English-speaking children are forced to speak Irish.

Let's make Irish-speaking voluntary.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-03-2013 09:56PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

the constant referral to it being a backwards language maybe

laoch na mona wrote: »

funny its mostly english speaking racists i know most people I know who speak irish are more foward thinking and of the lefty sort

not saying no racists speak irish just countering the idea that pro gaeilge = some how backwards which is the prevalent theme on this thread

I think we both know that this is bull****. Prove me wrong.

laoch na mona wrote: »

the bad attitude is in your head i have been perfectly civil and will continue to be

I agree that they went about it the wrong way and quickly gave up trying to bring it back in a real sense
but the crux of the matter is why should we give it up we haven't abandoned neo-liberal economics because of the recession so why abandon a perfectly good language because of bad policy

No, the crux of the issue is how best to bring it forward without making wild accusations about people and their feelings for the langauge in the way you do above. That's just going to drive people away. As is telling people who may be bloody good at their job that they're not doing it properly, simply because they do it in English.

Also, is there any chance you could use a bit of punctation in your English? Not wishing to be the grammar Nazi, but it's very difficult to work out what you are saying; and where one sentence ends and the next begins.

Dyr · 20-03-2013 09:59PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Our is a collective term. The irish language was never my language so it can't be ours.

Maybe you are'nt included in the reference to "us" then

Iwasfrozen · 20-03-2013 10:06PM

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe you are'nt included in the reference to "us" then

Then what is "us"?

karma_ · 20-03-2013 10:12PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then what is "us"?

Still crusading there iwf?

Iwasfrozen · 20-03-2013 10:14PM

karma_ wrote: »

Still crusading there iwf?

That's one of those rhetorical questions like "do you still beat your wife?"

karma_ · 20-03-2013 10:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's one of those rhetorical questions like "do you still beat your wife?"

I just enjoy following form. Don't ruin one of the small pleasures I get in life.

Coles · 20-03-2013 11:52PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then what is "us"?

It's everybody but you.

And I have to agree about the the Anti-Irish brigade being racists. Of course not all of them, but if they're not attacking one minority they're off attacking another one. The ironic thing is that they themselves are a minority, but they don't like admitting it.

Coles · 21-03-2013 12:01AM

And what is it about you guys and all the 'Likes'? One of you makes a contribution and the other five of you join in by hitting the 'Like' button. Debating like Indians.:rolleyes:

starlings · 21-03-2013 12:03AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then what is "us"?

us = poster + audience ÷ silly arguments.

Lord TSC · 21-03-2013 12:03AM

We like posts we agree with. That's the function of the system

Are you really struggling with the debate so much you're trying to attack the fact we agree with each other rather than with the points we're raising?

EDIT: And back to name calling too? Nice...

Grayson · 21-03-2013 12:04AM

Coles wrote: »

It's everybody but you.

And I have to agree about the the Anti-Irish brigade being racists. Of course not all of them, but if they're not attacking one minority they're off attacking another one. The ironic thing is that they themselves are a minority, but they don't like admitting it.

How are people who don't know irish and can't be bothered learning it, racist?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-03-2013 12:05AM

Coles wrote: »

It's everybody but you.

And I have to agree about the the Anti-Irish brigade being racists. Of course not all of them, but if they're not attacking one minority they're off attacking another one. The ironic thing is that they themselves are a minority, but they don't like admitting it.

That's because the only exist in your mind. I'd ask for some sort of evidence to the contrary or a direct link to something of substance, but there's not a chance in hell of you replying to this with anything ofsubstance.

Wibbs · 21-03-2013 12:09AM

Coles wrote: »

It's everybody but you.

And I have to agree about the the Anti-Irish brigade being racists. Of course not all of them, but if they're not attacking one minority they're off attacking another one. The ironic thing is that they themselves are a minority, but they don't like admitting it.

You were the one who reckoned our literacy rates were down to

"the large number of Eastern European migrants who arrived over the recent years"

Hmmm prejudice? Check. Dubious conclusion ignorant of the facts? Check. Again I ask, it seems fruitlessly, what is the Irish for "Irony". At this point in the game I'm beginning to think it's "Colesai", maybe with a fada in there somewhere. The next line of yours " Debating like Indians" makes it all the sweeter.

Coles wrote: »

And what is it about you guys and all the 'Likes'? One of you makes a contribution and the other five of you join in by hitting the 'Like' button. Debating like Indians.:rolleyes:

Earlier...

@Wibbs, why don't I get any 'Thanks'?

Feeling "insecure"? Maybe it's your "attitude", "innit?"

ZeitgeistGlee · 21-03-2013 12:23AM

Coles wrote: »

It's everybody but you.

And I have to agree about the the Anti-Irish brigade being racists. Of course not all of them, but if they're not attacking one minority they're off attacking another one. The ironic thing is that they themselves are a minority, but they don't like admitting it.

If I facepalm any harder I'm liable to break my nose. :rolleyes:

Purely out of curiosity, who exactly are "the anti-Irish brigade" in the context of this thread?

Coles wrote: »

And what is it about you guys and all the 'Likes'? One of you makes a contribution and the other five of you join in by hitting the 'Like' button. Debating like Indians.:rolleyes:

Coles wrote: »

@Wibbs, why don't I get any 'Thanks'?

I think it's one of those "everyone but you" situations you were talking about earlier. :rolleyes:

marienbad · 21-03-2013 12:31AM

laoch na mona wrote: »

the bad attitude is in your head i have been perfectly civil and will continue to be

I agree that they went about it the wrong way and quickly gave up trying to bring it back in a real sense
but the crux of the matter is why should we give it up we haven't abandoned neo-liberal economics because of the recession so why abandon a perfectly good language because of bad policy

Don't be so self-centered , I was referring to a lot more posters than you.

Yet again and for what seems like the 1000nd time - NOBODY IS SAYING WE SHOULD GIVE IT UP.

The policy has to change, but any discussion of that is immediately shot down. So we limp along and each year the Irish speaking areas get smaller and smaller.

feargale · 21-03-2013 12:41AM

I'm somewhat in the middle here, and thus feel as secure as a person standing in the middle of no man's land in WWI, while both sides are blasting each other. I've defended TG4 on another thread. But insofar as much of this thread has been devoted to Irish language enthusiasts trying to convince others of the merits of speaking Irish, FFS can you not see that the effort is as likely to succeed as calling for a decade of the rosary in Paisley's church, or peddling Mormonism or Jehovah's Evidence door to door on a street full of Legionaries of Mary? Many years ago, a government minister ( I cannot recall who ) said that the way to promote Irish was to speak it, not speak about it. And a speeding motorist, who, one supposes, is proficient in English, refusing to engage in English at the scene with a garda who has no Irish, at least to the extent of providing his name and address, is simply abusing the system. Fair enough, let him insist on proceedings in Irish when the state has had a chance to provide same. Would he take the same attitude with a garda who came to his assistance 5 minutes after his car was robbed?

Iwasfrozen · 21-03-2013 12:47AM

starlings wrote: »

us = poster + audience ÷ silly arguments.

For that equation to work silly arguments ≠ 0 and from looking at this thread so far that's not the case.

Coles wrote: »

It's everybody but you.

And I have to agree about the the Anti-Irish brigade being racists. Of course not all of them, but if they're not attacking one minority they're off attacking another one. The ironic thing is that they themselves are a minority, but they don't like admitting it.

The irony coming from the man who associates a lack of education with a British accent and blames immigrants for our literacy levels is astounding.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-03-2013 01:00AM

feargale wrote: »

I'm somewhat in the middle here, and thus feel as secure as a person standing in the middle of no man's land in WWI, while both sides are blasting each other. I've defended TG4 on another thread. But insofar as much of this thread has been devoted to Irish language enthusiasts trying to convince others of the merits of speaking Irish,

At this point, I have to stop you. No irish langauge enthusiast (apart possibly from yourself) has tried to convince anyone of anything, other than us being ignorant, racist or infriging on others' rights.

There has been little or no constructive ideas on how to get people interested in Irish, because, for the best ones to be achieved, a very very vague premise would have to fact, e.g. all kids who don't like the Irish do so because their parents have turned them off it before they ever got to school; or prefernetial treatement should be given to Irish speakers who apply for public-sector jobs.

FFS can you not see that the effort is as likely to succeed as calling for a decade of the rosary in Paisley's church, or peddling Mormonism or Jehovah's Evidence door to door on a street full of Legionaries of Mary?

Except the above mentioend groups are actually quiet accepting of people who disagree with them. Persistant, yes, but no JW or Mormon has ever tried to belittle me or convince me that I'm ignorant because they don't agree with me.

In direct contrast to the Irish langauge enthsiats (at least in this thread), the also come with their message, as opposed to thinking I should go to them and bend over backwards to hear what they have to say and it's my fault or my bad a-titude if I don't do it.

Many years ago, a government minister ( I cannot recall who ) said that the way to promote Irish was to speak it, not speak about it. And a speeding motorist, who, one supposes, is proficient in English, refusing to engage in English at the scene with a garda who has no Irish, at least to the extent of providing his name and address, is simply abusing the system. Fair enough, let him insist on proceedings in Irish when the state has had a chance to provide same. Would he take the same attitude with a garda who came to his assistance 5 minutes after his car was robbed?

This, I completely agree with.

starlings · 21-03-2013 02:05AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For that equation to work silly arguments ≠ 0 and from looking at this thread so far that's not the case.

that's what I meant.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

At this point, I have to stop you. No irish langauge enthusiast (apart possibly from yourself) has tried to convince anyone of anything, other than us being ignorant, racist or infriging on others' rights.

There has been little or no constructive ideas on how to get people interested in Irish, because, for the best ones to be achieved, a very very vague premise would have to fact, e.g. all kids who don't like the Irish do so because their parents have turned them off it before they ever got to school; or prefernetial treatement should be given to Irish speakers who apply for public-sector jobs.
.

OK, I'm not an Irish language enthusiast but like feargale I'm stuck in no man's land. I did try to raise the point that the State is obliged to provide services to native Irish speakers - necessities such as medicine and law - and yes, I know some people will take the absolute p1ss by using translation as a delay tactic or moneyspinner but that doesn't mean we should isolate people who live and think in Irish. I'm all for economising the provision of such services as long as they can remain efficient for the people who need them.

The methods of teaching Irish in schools, indeed the question of whether Irish should be taught in schools at all, is a completely separate matter, and I wonder if the experience of this has coloured some views to the point where the actual living breathing Irish speakers are left out of the argument completely?

IMHO it shouldn't be a mandatory subject in schools, and the "you're anti-Irish/racist" jibes thrown around on this thread are infuriating not just because they are unreasonable and rude but because they're an own goal.

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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