are atheists as irratating as born again christians?

bhamsteve wrote: »

I'd say you'd be right to challenge the bigot, but could just allow people their nonsensical beliefs in the knowledge that they were bought up with them, find comfort in them, are too deeply ingrained for people to want to change at their stage of life.

Pretty insulting to old people, that they can't change old beliefs.

bhamsteve wrote: »

Would you challenge your parents or grandparents nonsensical beliefs, or just leave them to it?

I'd challenge, obviously. Like I said in the last post, what's the worst that could happen? One of us convince the other?

bhamsteve wrote: »

If someone thinks there's a man in the sky with a beard looking out for everyone, leave them to it. When it infringes on your freedoms and right to self determination, then challenge it, but tactfully, not by ridiculing.

It is not as simple as that. Let's take the example of gay marriage, which has been a hot topic around here lately. Religion is invariably the loudest and most powerful force opposing gay marriage. I would like gay marriage to be instituted. I go "hey, boyfriend, let's get married" and he goes "we're not allowed!". "Hmm" I think, "I'll talk to the government about this!" So off I go to the Dail and I talk to Enda and I says "I'd like to be able to marry the person I love like all the straight people do!" and he goes "No!" and I say "Oh, why not?" and he's all "That's the way I was raised, I'm a Catholic and I think marriage is between a man and a woman".

Understandably a little disappointed I make a few calls and manage to get enough support to get a referendum started. The referendum is all "Hey, let's let gay people get married" and the Irish public goes "No!" and I says "But why?" and they're all "We're Catholic".

The point being that while we can tackle specific problems that religion causes as they crop up, it doesn't work very well and it just keeps cropping up again and again, so some of us decided that maybe we should just generally raise the issue of religion being shitty for society and hope we can contribute to reducing it's influence to the point where they stop going "No! Because we're Catholic" every time someone wants to get married or have a divorce or drink on Good Friday or not die of AIDS in Africa. I'd love to see more "Yes! Because we're reasonable, educated individuals with respect for human rights and equal treatment in the eyes of the law for all!" and less "No, because the magic book says so, no further discussion, go to Hell faggot/heathen/brown person".

I generally oppose religious and other magical thinking when I encounter it because for every Granny enjoying her rosary there's a gay person unable to visit their partner in hospital, three Africans with AIDS, a transperson beaten to death, ten gay people mocked, ridiculed or bullied to suicide, a bomb planted in public, a town/district/country split along sectarian lines, a priest pocketing cash, a scientific budget slashed, twenty women denied access to reproductive health care and a greatly promising area of medical research inhibited or outlawed*.

Religion is really nice for some people and truly fucking terrible for civilisation, and the number one way that it maintains its ability to control the opinions of millions is by protecting itself in a shroud of "respect" and "tolerance", which is really just hegemony and conservatism.

*relative numbers may be invented

bhamsteve wrote: »

They are deeply important to the people who hold them though.
But why not show people a bit of respect? What do you get out of challenging peoples belief? Satisfaction? Kicks? A feeling of superiority?

Every other belief system gets challenged, so why not religion? Religious nonsense has gotten too much free rein for far too long, with some very negative consequences. A grown adult who believes in fairytales does not deserve to have those beliefs respected. I'll respect their right to hold such beliefs yes, but that's a different thing. That's called freedom of choice, something the organised religions have always been hostile to.

You're entitled to believe in those fairytales if you wish, and I'm entitled to tell you that what you believe is very silly (to put it kindly). Much of religious dogma is provably wrong and/or completely impossible, and that deserves to be challenged.

If no-one ever challenged false ideas and beliefs, and endeavoured to find out how things really are, we'd still be living in caves and worshipping the sun. That's the reality of it.

Religions have poisoned countless minds with fear and superstition, and if challenging that offends somebody then good, maybe us non-believers have been a little too nice, a little too respectful to the mullahs and the bishops and the other peddlers of dangerous, bigoted nonsense. If religious beliefs actually held any water then it wouldn't matter that we challenge them, would it?

gothictwilight wrote: »

is it just me or are strident atheists as boring, arrogant and irratating as a zealot of any religion?

Certainty of any kind is abhorrent. Even your point (and this).

bhamsteve wrote: »

Why should they want to change their beliefs? because you decide they should?

They should want to change their beliefs if they were convinced they are wrong.

How is that a "religious" symbol? Are all symbols religious?

Also, what's wrong with people organising around an idea? Even if it's a negative idea. It's a point that comes up here the odd time and I don't yet understand it.

speaking wrote: »

Now, those who organize themselves into atheist groups I have some difficulty with. However well meaning they may be, it slightly disturbs me. I cant put my finger on it.

For example for all the great work work atheist Ireland do, I was disturbed to see a quasi religious symbol on their web page.