Who Were The Celts?

Apparently, we are not really 'Celtic' (a bit of a catch all term anyway born in the nineteenth centuryentral europe northern India? - c) genetically. Our origins especially western Ireland seem to be more towards Spain/Basque area.

The 'Celtic' culture was all across Europe and had tremendous influence and sway here too language customs, bit like American culture is today in the western world. Not saying that none came here but numbers were small.

bolgios wrote: »

We talk of Celtic tigers, Celtic Nations, Celtic languages etc., but in school we learn nothing about the culture from which we are supposedly descended. If we are indeed 'Celts', then who were these mysterious Celts, and where did they come from ?

The original Celts were a group of people living in central Austria, who spoke a language called Proto-Celtic. Irish, Welsh, Breton and Cornish are called Celtic languages because they descend from this language.

The Celts spread their culture over most of Western Europe as they were the first to perfect Iron metallurgy in Europe. They physically migrated into France, Switzerland and the Czech republic and then spread their language into Britain most likely through a combination of trade and becoming local leaders. Their language then spread into Ireland from Britain via migration, with the Celts eventually becoming a small elite over the local populace.

The language spoken in Ireland prior to their arrival was most likely something "like" (and I mean this in a very vague way) Basque.

bolgios wrote: »

God only knows what that so-called DNA test shows. What's the Tuatha Dé Danann DNA thing supposed to be ?

So-called? It's a test of DNA, hence a DNA test.

There is also no mention of Tuatha Dé Danann DNA. (Whatever that would be)

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

so really all the gaelgoiri should be pushing for more basque language time in primary and secondary school and more funding for TgLau

Not that they should be pushing for anything, but there is a difference between the major culture vehicle for 1,500 years of our literature and a language family (like Basque, but not actually Basque) inferred from linguistic evidence, but with no active literary heritage.

More importantly, Irish history can be discussed without linking it to current political issues.

Enkidu that's a lot clearer thanks.

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Enkidu that's a lot clearer thanks.

Don't mention it!
I should say that the monks downplayed the divinity of the Tuatha Dé Dannan so that the literature about them seemed like harmless stories and not texts from a pagan religion. That is, the monks cleverly found a way to preserve the legends.

I say this because sometimes the monks are portrayed as suppressing the native religion, where as in fact they were the ones to save its literature.

bolgios wrote: »

Where did this Basque stuff come from anyway?

What do you mean exactly?:)

bolgios wrote: »

With respect, where exactly is this mixture of mythology, Basques, 'hairy creatures who lived in the woods', and pseudo-DNA studies supposed to lead us?

I don't see what is pseudo about it. All of the above is from actual published research papers. For example:

Origins and Genetic Legacy of Neolithic Farmers and Hunter-Gatherers in Europe
Pontus Skoglund(1,*), Helena Malmström(1), Maanasa Raghavan(2), Jan Storå(3), Per Hall()4, Eske Willerslev(2), M. Thomas P. Gilbert(2), Anders Götherström (1,5,*,†,) Mattias Jakobsson(1,5,*,†)

1. Department of Evolutionary Biology, Evolutionary Biology Centre, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden.
2. Centre for GeoGenetics, Natural History Museum of Denmark, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark.
3. Osteoarchaeological Research Laboratory, Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies, Stockholm University, Stockholm, Sweden.
4. Department of Medical Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden.
5. Science for Life Laboratory, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden.

ABSTRACT

The farming way of life originated in the Near East some 11,000 years ago and had reached most of the European continent 5000 years later. However, the impact of the agricultural revolution on demography and patterns of genomic variation in Europe remains unknown. We obtained 249 million base pairs of genomic DNA from ~5000-year-old remains of three hunter-gatherers and one farmer excavated in Scandinavia and find that the farmer is genetically most similar to extant southern Europeans, contrasting sharply to the hunter-gatherers, whose distinct genetic signature is most similar to that of extant northern Europeans. Our results suggest that migration from southern Europe catalyzed the spread of agriculture and that admixture in the wake of this expansion eventually shaped the genomic landscape of modern-day Europe.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6080/466.abstract

In our genomic analyses, the Scandinavian Neolithic hunter-gatherers (PWC) have a genetic profile that is not fully represented by any sampled contemporary population (Fig. 1), and may thus constitute a gene pool that is no longer intact or that no longer exists. While the origin of the Neolithic hunter-gatherers is contentious, the similar mtDNA haplogroup composition of PWC individuals (8) (Table 1) and Mesolithic- and Paleolithic individuals (7, 29) indicate some continuity with earlier European populations, but resolving this hypothesis will require pre-Neolithic genomic data.

The 5000 year old neolithic farmer that was tested in the above study was closest genetically to the Basques. This points to the Basques being connected to the spread of agriculture. People keep saying that the Irish are basically Basques that adopted a Celtic language and thus aren't really Celts. I don't believe this, especially given the apparent mass replacement of Male lineages (only 10-20% of Irish men are potentially descended from Mesolithic/Neolithic male population).

In the case of Ireland, 80% of Irish men carry a marker on their Y-Chromosome called L21. This is at most 4,000 years old (2,000BC). It originated more then likely on the continent, the evidence pointing to Eastern France/Western Germany. All men who carry L21 are descended from the first man born with this marker.

This points to a massive population replacement on male lineages in Ireland due to population inflow from the continent during the Bronze/Iron ages. With regards to Celtic languages people doing language reconstruction often date the split between Irish, Welsh and Gaulish as before 1,000BC. The Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze age cultures are regarded by some as Proto-Celtic these date from period 1,200BC - 800BC.

Here is a map of modern distribution of L21



It's highest concentration is in areas that are (or were till recently) Celtic speaking. It also shows high concentration in areas such as those which were formerly occupied by the Gauls and the Celt-Iberians. It's brother marker U152/S28 (they belong to same branch of R1b -- P312) has more of a distribution in eastern France/Switzerland/Northern Italy. Some have argued its distribution is due to the spread of La Tene material culture in the period after 300BC.

dubhthach wrote: »

Tbh there is no proof that Basque is a descendant of language of Mesolithic Europeans. It's a language isolate in a sea of Indo-European languages. As a result this lends itself to concept that it's always been there.

True, however it's certainly Pre-Indo-European. It's also probably not the descendent of the language of the first farmers, since that was almost certainly Afro-Asiatic. Hence the most likely scenario is that it is descended from the language of some Mesolithic group. Of course there is a chance that it was the language of some Neolithic group that came with the first farmers, but which were not the first farmers themselves.

Either way it's Pre-Indo-European and hence part of what we call "Old Europe", before the horse, chariot and herding.