No myth without history and no history without myth

dubhthach · 03-05-2012 9:07am

slowburner wrote: »

Isn't there a common theme about tasting the flesh of a particular animal, and being transformed as a consequence?
For Cúchulainn it was the breadán feasa and for the Vikings, it was (I think) the salmon eating otter.

I would assume you mean Fionn mac Cumhaill with regards to the Bradán.

Though in the case of Cú Chulainn there is an important plot device in his death tale regarding food. Specifically he had a geis that banned him from eating dog meat. However he also had another geis that bound him to always accept food from a woman. So when the old hag offers him dog-meath he is the position where he is "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't". This sets a train of motion that results in his death.

slowburner · 03-05-2012 1:43pm

dubhthach wrote: »

I would assume you mean Fionn mac Cumhaill with regards to the Bradán.

Though in the case of Cú Chulainn there is an important plot device in his death tale regarding food. Specifically he had a geis that banned him from eating dog meat. However he also had another geis that bound him to always accept food from a woman. So when the old hag offers him dog-meath he is the position where he is "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't". This sets a train of motion that results in his death.

That's the lad.
I hope those from the Royal county haven't been offended by his dietary requirements

dubhthach · 03-05-2012 2:49pm

slowburner wrote: »

That's the lad.
I hope those from the Royal county haven't been offended by his dietary requirements

Of course the ironic thing about the Province of Meath is that the actual sub-component where the name comes from (Midhe -- Mí = modern irish) basically maps onto modern Westmeath. The modern county of Meath in comparison maps to the sub-kingdom of Brega (Bregha -- the heights). Of course when the two counties were created they were originally called: Westmeath and Eastmeath

steddyeddy · 03-05-2012 10:13pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Of course the ironic thing about the Province of Meath is that the actual sub-component where the name comes from (Midhe -- Mí = modern irish) basically maps onto modern Westmeath. The modern county of Meath in comparison maps to the sub-kingdom of Brega (Bregha -- the heights). Of course when the two counties were created they were originally called: Westmeath and Eastmeath

Sorry not meaning to change topic but just clocked your signature, did you get your dna mapped?

dubhthach · 04-05-2012 9:54am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry not meaning to change topic but just clocked your signature, did you get your dna mapped?

I've done testing yes, specifically on my Y Chromosome. I also got a million SNP's mapped on my wider genome. However it's too expensive as of let to do a full genome. The price if falling rapidly though. At the moment I believe it's on order of 5-7 grand. Couple more years it be down to €500 (by 2020 anyways)

slowburner · 06-05-2012 11:46am

Legends are supposed to have a seed of truth, but become increasingly doubtful and move further from the original seed with embellishment and addition.
Most historians would agree, that there probably was a warlord in Western Britain, who resisted the Saxon invasion.
The legend has a close parallel with our own knowledge of these mysterious times (the various Annals and Leabhars). Most of the Arthurian legends stem from the C.11th (Geoffrey of Monmouth) and were translated from Latin in the C.12th.
Whether this warlord was Arthur, and whether he actually unified any tribes is still hotly debated.

The Telegraph reported the 'discovery' of Arthur's round table in July 2010.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7883874/Historians-locate-King-Arthurs-Round-Table.html

There's a critique here, which rebuts many contemporary claims.
http://badarchaeology.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/king-arthur’s-round-table-discovered-in-chester/

steddyeddy · 06-05-2012 11:59am

dubhthach wrote: »

I've done testing yes, specifically on my Y Chromosome. I also got a million SNP's mapped on my wider genome. However it's too expensive as of let to do a full genome. The price if falling rapidly though. At the moment I believe it's on order of 5-7 grand. Couple more years it be down to €500 (by 2020 anyways)

Im doing biochemistry research in ucd and im fairly sure ucd will be offering one at a reduced price in the near future. Ill let you know when It comes in. You could also test your mitochondrial dna (your mother and her ancestry through the female line) for around a hundred.

slowburner · 06-05-2012 12:00pm

Enkidu wrote: »

Irish interaction with Carthage and the rest of Phoenician society is still debated. They certainly traded up around this end of the world, so the people present in Ireland at the time certainly traded with them. There is some theories about their influence on the Irish language, but most likely this amounted to a few borrowings and nothing else.

This 'the first Irish settlers came from Spain' business, crops up time and time again.
I'm, fairly sure we have discussed this elsewhere ( I just can't remember where), but isn't there a body of genetic evidence to suggest that the Irish might have originated in the Basque region.

J.A.Giles' 1841 trans. of The Works of Gildas and Nennius

books?id=3R1mCE7p44MC&pg=RA1-PA9&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3qA1NgGYsSkMll0dJpzERhTtRZwg&ci=108%2C352%2C780%2C879&edge=0

steddyeddy · 06-05-2012 1:13pm

slowburner wrote: »

This 'the first Irish settlers came from Spain' business, crops up time and time again.
I'm, fairly sure we have discussed this elsewhere ( I just can't remember where), but isn't there a body of genetic evidence to suggest that the Irish might have originated in the Basque region.

J.A.Giles' 1841 trans. of The Works of Gildas and Nennius

In Ireland theres a large frequency of haplogroup which is also found in the basque regions to a large degree.

steddyeddy · 06-05-2012 1:50pm

I always wondered about the Fir bolg and the Tuatha Dé Danann and were they based on humans or pre human species of hominid. The basque people shared the land with neanderthals for thousands of years and have myths about the basajaun who were huge hairy creatures which lived in the woods. The same could be said of legends of trolls.

The roman philosopher titus lucretius said the following about another race of humans.

they were built up on larger and more solid bones within, fastened with strong sinews traversing the flesh; not easily to be harmed by the heat or cold or strange food or any taint of the body. ... Nor as yet did they know how to serve their purpose with fire, nor to use skins and clothe their body in the spoils of wild beasts, but dwelt in woods and the caves on mountains and forests, and amid brushwood would hide their rough limbs, when constrained to shun the shock of winds and the rain-showers. ... And like bristly boars these woodland men would lay their limbs naked on the ground, when overtaken by night time, wrapping themselves up around with leaves and foliage.

I wonder could these myths about the previous inhabitants of some countries contain any truth.

slowburner · 07-05-2012 10:10am

steddyeddy wrote: »

I always wondered about the Fir bolg and the Tuatha Dé Danann and were they based on humans or pre human species of hominid. The basque people shared the land with neanderthals for thousands of years and have myths about the basajaun who were huge hairy creatures which lived in the woods. The same could be said of legends of trolls.

The roman philosopher titus lucretius said the following about another race of humans.

they were built up on larger and more solid bones within, fastened with strong sinews traversing the flesh; not easily to be harmed by the heat or cold or strange food or any taint of the body. ... Nor as yet did they know how to serve their purpose with fire, nor to use skins and clothe their body in the spoils of wild beasts, but dwelt in woods and the caves on mountains and forests, and amid brushwood would hide their rough limbs, when constrained to shun the shock of winds and the rain-showers. ... And like bristly boars these woodland men would lay their limbs naked on the ground, when overtaken by night time, wrapping themselves up around with leaves and foliage.

I wonder could these myths about the previous inhabitants of some countries contain any truth.

Titus Lucretius' words seem somehow different from the more usual tales of the Yeti etc..
Intriguing - did he say more on the subject?

dubhthach · 07-05-2012 5:25pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

In Ireland theres a large frequency of haplogroup which is also found in the basque regions to a large degree.

Well part of that story that was pushed several years ago by likes of Sykes was that the high level of Haplogroup R1b in Basques and Irish was a reflection of a Mesolithic population that had survived the last Glacial maxium. Unfortunately it doesn't hold up given the massive amount of changes in the Haplogroup Tree due to discovery of new SNP's over last several years.

For example 110 million men in Western Europe carry a marker under R1b called M269. (R1b1a2) In European context this spilts into two major subclades these been:

R1b-U106 (R1b1a2a1a1a)
R1b-P312 ( R1b1a2a1ab)

A very simple explanation of geographic spread of both is that U106 tends to be concentrated in Germanic speaking world. Whereas P312 and it's subclades tend to be concentrated in areas that were Italic-Celtic speaking (Celtic Europe plus likes of Italy). Which is interesting given that linguists often talk about a proto-Italic-Celtic common language.

The oldest known ancient-DNA sample of R1b in Europe comes from Early Bronze age and is connected to "Bell Beaker" material culture. This was confirmed as M269+ but U106- (they didn't test P312 unfortunatley). No R1b has been found in either Neolithic or Mesolithic dated ancient DNA samples.

Anyways with regards to R1b in Basques most of them fall into a different subclade (Z196+) of P312 then us Irish (L21+)

With regards to my own testing I've tested 111 STR's on my Y-Chromosome as well as done deep clade SNP testing (confirmed L21+, specifically DF41+, a new subclade of L21). I've also done autosomnal testing (million SNP array).

I would say the Tuatha Dé Danann represent a conversion of pre-Christian deities into a seperate race. The names are cognate with that of Celtic deities in other parts of Celtic speaking Europe (Lugh --> Lugus)

patsman07 · 08-05-2012 11:51pm

I remember seeing a documentary some years ago where there was a search for the real Robin Hood. If my memory serves me correctly they found three Robert Hoods, all of whom lived during the right time period but they settled on one who was described somewhere as an outlaw. Think they were pretty sure he didn't hide out in Sherwood Forest though!

steddyeddy · 09-05-2012 12:07am

slowburner wrote: »

Titus Lucretius' words seem somehow different from the more usual tales of the Yeti etc..
Intriguing - did he say more on the subject?

Aparantly he did talk a lot about what other roman scholars called "satyrs" and sileni in terms of another race of man. Ill try and find out more about it!

No myth without history and no history without myth

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