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Primary school college course and atheism

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Comments

  • #52
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.

    Alive-O is the Catholic religion syllabus for primary, Learn together is the Educate together syllabus.

    I was in Mary Immaculate college over 25 years ago and we learned about different religions but there was nothing like the type of q that seems to have appeared through Hibernia. There are lots of atheists in primary teaching, they just don't make it public to parents!!


  • #53
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.

    I was in a non-denominational school from about 93-99 (when I left for France and they have NO religion of any kind in any state schools as far as I know - it's great) and I don't recall any talk of religion (other than a mention that if you were a catholic you got time off for communion prep). I stayed until 3rd class. Does it all happen in 4th-6th class?


  • #54
    DaveyByrne
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭DaveyByrne


    please don't leave... stay here and educate our children!


  • #55
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    eastbono wrote: »
    Just dot the i's and cross the t's and get your dip. Then go and teach in another country.
    No, I wish people wouldn't do that. I wish they'd stay and fight. If all the freethinkers emigrate rather than teach here, how is the system ever going to change?


  • #56
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    oceanclub wrote: »
    There's at least one journo following this issue up; hope to see more about it soon

    Linky winky?


  • #57
    fisgon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Forget prayers in the Dail, forget the religious oath for president, and the Angelus, the Vatican Embassy, (although all fights worth fighting), the religious, - and specifically Catholic - control of primary schools is hands down the biggest issue in this country for anyone interested in a rational, secular society free from religious dogma and superstition.

    This is clearer and clearer, the primary schools are where the church gets any of its remaining power. The primary school system is responsible for the indoctrination of generations of sheep in this country, and the reason why even after all the unforgiveable filth that this institution has been responsible for still almost half the country gets on its knees every Sunday in front of a man in a dog collar. The batsh1t insane questions on this sample test are indicative of the problem with the current system, and the absolute necessity for change if you care at all about living in a sane republic.


  • #58
    Huff n Puff
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭Huff n Puff


    Shocking stuff. Thanks number10a for highlighting this.

    As an atheist about to start the Hibernia College Primary School course it is good to know that my college will place me on the 'high risk of committing unspeakable horrors list'.

    I hope they don't discover my diabolical plan to burn down the local school in the name of atheism. Damn you all to nonexistent hell! (Joke!!)

    Back in my younger days (15 years ago) I attended Mary I for 2 years. I can still remember to this day arguing about the validity of religion with the lecturer and being looked upon as some sort of idiot / troublemaker (by the lecturer who was, by the way, a very nice man and my classmates). Times are a changing though and the school system will catch up eventually.

    Issues like this push more people to the side of reason as it gets people talking and thinking. When people start to examine religion many will find the holes. Funnily enough my father was a religion teacher (and a science teacher....go figure!) and he managed to raise 3 atheist sons who are now teaching or about to start teaching. The more he argued the more we questioned everything.


  • #59
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.
    The terminology you are using hides the ugly reality of using state funded schools to deliver religious indoctrination to children in their formative years.
    The above quote is unhelpful because it masks the fact that some schools will indoctrinate kids, and some will not.
    Take the term "non-denominational". Its a kind of double negative, because denominational or segregated schooling is itself a negative concept.

    An Educate Together school would teach kids about world religions in the same way as it would teach about world cultures, or geography. That is teaching, not religious indoctrination. What would a non-denominational school be? One run by militant atheists, where if a kid mentioned religion, he would be taken out and shot? There is no "non-denominational" school in Ireland in the same way as there is no "non-geography" school.

    The term "multi-denominational" also lacks specific meaning. The VEC are proposing to set up primary schools in which the kids are segregated only during the mandatory "religious education" class. They would be divided into different groups and each group indoctrinated with a different brand of mumbo jumbo. Your term multi-denominational fails to distinguish this from the more objective teaching about religion of the Educate Together model, where any religious indoctrination would have to occur outside school hours.

    So, even the terminology invented and perpetuated by the religious is misleading and inaccurate. That's without even getting started on the indoctrination itself, including the prayers and imagery pupils are exposed to throughout the day in a denominational school.


  • #60
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    DaveyByrne wrote: »
    please don't leave... stay here and educate our children!

    +1 do stay and teach our children!!


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  • #61
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    I wrote both minister and college and am awaiting reply.(not that I suspect any reply, but you never know)


  • #62
    someoneok
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭someoneok


    Children are born atheists, let's not confuse them with the older generations fairytales.


  • #63
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.

    Alive-O is the Catholic religion syllabus for primary indoctrination, Learn together is the Educate together syllabus.

    I was in Mary Immaculate college over 25 years ago and we learned about different religions but there was nothing like the type of q that seems to have appeared through Hibernia. There are lots of atheists in primary teaching, they just don't make it public to parents!!

    Fixed it for you.

    They tend to call it pre-evangelisation


  • #64
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    darealtulip wrote: »
    They tend to call it pre-evangelisation
    The usual term is "faith formation"(*)


    (*) You'll have to imagine the spitting sounds.


  • #65
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Interestingly enough, the primary school act of 1831 was meant to establish non-denom. schools. There was a hour for lunch break, but this evolved into those staying for some kind of religious instruction for half an hour and then into what we have now.Traditionally religion was taught from 12-12.30 to allow those not taking part go home at that stage.

    Technically, teachers were not paid for this half hour and the dept of ed does not inspect religion during a whole school inspection.

    Yes, non-denom schools are possible, where there is no time spent teaching religion,a prayer is not said in the morning or so on.


  • #66
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    robindch wrote: »
    The usual term is "faith formation"(*)


    (*) You'll have to imagine the spitting sounds.

    no the catholic church revered to it as pre-evangelisation, it is mentioned under that term in Alive-O

    Another interesting submission to the forum on pluralism on teacher colleges:

    http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/fpp_sub_donnelly_dr_philomena.pdf


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  • #67
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland...
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Yes, non-denom schools are possible, where there is no time spent teaching religion...

    Make your mind up!


    darealtulip wrote: »
    Another interesting submission to the forum on pluralism on teacher colleges:

    http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/fpp_sub_donnelly_dr_philomena.pdf
    Simple and sensible proposals; makes you wonder what the problem is in just getting on with it.


  • #68
    Silver_525
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Silver_525


    I'm doing that religion exam that the OP is referring to.
    Just found the part about atheism that the question referred to in my notes...it goes as follows "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

    So as you can see that wasn't some random question in the sample test, it's taken directly from the notes they give us...


  • #69
    swiftblade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭swiftblade


    Silver_525 wrote: »
    I'm doing that religion exam that the OP is referring to.
    Just found the part about atheism that the question referred to in my notes...it goes as follows "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

    So as you can see that wasn't some random question in the sample test, it's taken directly from the notes they give us...

    What The F**k.

    That is one college I will be avoiding.


  • #70
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Ok, to be clear,there are CURRENTLY no non-denom primary schools in Ireland, but that does not meant that there CANNOT be non-denoms in the near future.


  • #71
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    it goes as follows "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history"

    ^^ Your notes are full of $hit.


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  • #72
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    Silver_525 wrote: »
    Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".
    Who wrote your notes? This is such bullsh1t. I can't believe they're teaching this to kids.


  • #73
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    FouxDaFaFa wrote: »
    Who wrote your notes? This is such bullsh1t. I can't believe they're teaching this to kids.

    worse they are teaching teachers to be!!!


  • #74
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    Multiple post.


  • #75
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    darealtulip wrote: »
    worse they are teaching teachers to be!!!
    I know. I probably should have said "I can't believe they will be teaching this to kids". The rage cloud made me unclear.

    It's downright dangerous imo to have children associating atheism with the holocaust, Stalin, etc. It will just make any children who start doubting the situation think that they're monsters.


  • #76
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Ok, to be clear,there are CURRENTLY no non-denom primary schools in Ireland, but that does not meant that there CANNOT be non-denoms in the near future.

    Is this what you mean by Non-denominational? Or do you mean the Irish Constitution and the school curriculum would be changed to allow schools spend zero time discussing religion. I'd prefer to get away from the word denomination altogether and just describe schools as either Indoctrinating or not.


  • #77
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Silver_525 wrote: »
    I'm doing that religion exam that the OP is referring to.
    Just found the part about atheism that the question referred to in my notes...it goes as follows "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

    So as you can see that wasn't some random question in the sample test, it's taken directly from the notes they give us...

    Someone should tell John Colgan and have him accuse the school of incitement to hatred. Because he would have a better chance with this than with that bishop. That is some of the most bigoted and hate filled lies I have ever read.


  • #78
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Silver_525 wrote: »
    I'm doing that religion exam that the OP is referring to.
    Just found the part about atheism that the question referred to in my notes...it goes as follows "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

    So as you can see that wasn't some random question in the sample test, it's taken directly from the notes they give us...

    I closed the thread after my last post, but I could not get this out of my head. Its just so stupid and ignorant and clumsy (how hollow can someone's fear of atheism and humanism be?). Its just so.... I can't even describe it. Its so irritating and aggravating that this is being taught to f*cking teachers
    11508.jpg


  • #79
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    I don't suppose they have a question about Christianity's Crusades or Inquisitions?


  • #80
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    darealtulip wrote: »
    no the catholic church revered to it as pre-evangelisation, it is mentioned under that term in Alive-O
    "Pre-evangelization" -- ye gods, what a desperately Orwellian term. The following quote from Politics and the English Language is worth noting:
    George Orwell wrote:
    [...] Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like "Marshal Petain was a true patriot", "The Soviet press is the freest in the world", "The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution", are almost always made with intent to deceive. [...]


  • #81
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Mark I can PM the contact detials of the college and the minister etc if you are want to email your concerns


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  • #82
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a follow up post on broadsheet, based on a comment in the original one:

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/02/22/ash-wednesday/


  • #83
    Sanjuro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,239 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    eastbono wrote: »
    Just dot the i's and cross the t's and get your dip. Then go and teach in another country.

    Or would it not be more prudent to actually try to teach that this kind of thinking is false in this country? So that this line of thinking isn't perpetuated. Surely teaching isn't just a matter of maintaining the status quo but trying to open minds to actually thinking alternative views.


  • #84
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    I've tried without success to contact the college generally.

    Does someone have contact details for those administering this particular class/course?

    Thanks,

    P.


  • #85
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I fired off an email to academicaffairs@hiberniacollege.net and cc'd it to minister@education.gov.ie.

    I suggest others do likewise.

    I have long suspected that many primary school teachers tend to be cut from a very similar attitudinal cloth. It's unlikely that many atheist or agnostic young people would want to do a job in which it's a norm to prepare children for two or three religious rituals each year.


  • #86
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    darealtulip wrote: »
    Mark I can PM the contact detials of the college and the minister etc if you are want to email your concerns

    Amtmann has put some details there, so I'll use those. If you know of better ones, though, I'll use them too.


  • #87
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Amtmann wrote: »
    I fired off an email to academicaffairs@hiberniacollege.net and cc'd it to minister@education.gov.ie.

    Cheers for that, I just had to send a mail.


  • #88
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    10/1 that they will respond saying 'we will pray for you'.


  • #89
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    I'm willing to bet they'll ignore it until it makes national mainstream news. Then they will cite a vague 'ethos' and complain about being oppressed. Then people will write into the Indo about 'militant secularism'.


  • #90
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    For the minister: (01) 889233 MINISTER@education.gov.ie or for teacher education tes@education.gov.ie. Press office: (01) 8892162 / 8892322 and Secretary General: (01) 8892280

    Hibernia College Dublin
    2 Clare Street, Dublin 2, Ireland.

    Email: academicaffairs@hiberniacollege.net
    Phone: +353 (0)1 661 0168
    Fax: +353 (0)1 661 0162


    Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/print.html#sec4

    Thinking about ringing the guards, read section 4


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  • #91
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/...rint.html#sec4

    Thinking about ringing the guards, read section 4
    __________________

    Personally as a proponent of free speech I disagree with this tactic. While I don't think a college should be teaching anti-religious bigotry as objective fact and being approved to do so by the Dept of Education, I also don't think that anti-hatred legislation should be use unless the writer is directly inciting violence, which in this case, they aren't.

    P.


  • #92
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    oceanclub wrote: »
    Personally as a proponent of free speech I disagree with this tactic. While I don't think a college should be teaching anti-religious bigotry as objective fact and being approved to do so by the Dept of Education, I also don't think that anti-hatred legislation should be use unless the writer is directly inciting violence, which in this case, they aren't.

    P.

    I agree. We should make an appeal to common sense and reason.
    I know, I know, "In Ireland??!!?", but I don't like the idea of reaching for the anti-hatred registration every time we come across something we don't like. It seems childish and shrill. There are probably more legitimate and mature grounds to bring up the issue in relation to.


  • #93
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Can anyone tell me what negative questions the course does about Islam? Does it get a free ride? If not, those on the Islam forum might be interested.

    P.


  • #94
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    oceanclub wrote: »
    Personally as a proponent of free speech I disagree with this tactic. While I don't think a college should be teaching anti-religious bigotry as objective fact and being approved to do so by the Dept of Education, I also don't think that anti-hatred legislation should be use unless the writer is directly inciting violence, which in this case, they aren't.

    P.

    I disagree, it does not need to incite violence to incite hatred.

    They are teaching people to hate non-religious people.


  • #95
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Galvasean wrote: »
    I agree. We should make an appeal to common sense and reason.
    I know, I know, "In Ireland??!!?", but I don't like the idea of reaching for the anti-hatred registration every time we come across something we don't like. It seems childish and shrill. There are probably more legitimate and mature grounds to bring up the issue in relation to.

    It is childish to make them adhere to the law?

    Is this a childish law then?

    And every time? I have only recently heard of one case.

    Which legitimate and mature grounds do you propose?

    I am appalled that this gets taught to the teachers of my children and I want it to stop now!

    I am so angry about this that I want to fight this from every angle possible. Never felt so enraged about anything before.


  • #96
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    darealtulip wrote: »
    I am appalled that this gets taught to the teachers of my children and I want it to stop now!

    I am so angry about this that I want to fight this from every angle possible. Never felt so enraged about anything before.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly but I feel the 'incitement to hatred' route could be easily dismissed. They are certainly inciting ignorance, mistrust and perhaps fear, but i don't think hatred could be easily proven.
    darealtulip wrote: »
    Which legitimate and mature grounds do you propose?

    Sadly, I am not particularly well read on such laws and cannot personally offer a viable alternative. Hence why I said 'probably' in my previous post. I think there is probably a better way to engage this that has not been highlighted yet.
    You and I want the same thing. I just want to weigh up all of our available options first so that our approach will be air tight and stand the greatest chance of success.


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  • #97
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Fair point. I got a reply from the college:

    Dear darealtulip,

    Thank you for your email message earlier today. I would like to assure you that I am discussing the issues which are of concern with Senior Management at the College.
    I will respond fully in due course.

    Regards,
    Siobhán

    Dr. Siobhán Cahillane-McGovern
    Director, Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed.)

    Hibernia College
    2 Clare Street
    Dublin 2
    Ireland


  • #98
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Good stuff. Hopefully something can come of this.


  • #99
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    darealtulip wrote: »
    Thank you for your email message earlier today. I would like to assure you that I am discussing the issues which are of concern with Senior Management at the College.
    I will respond fully in due course.

    Regards,
    Siobhán

    Dr. Siobhán Cahillane-McGovern
    Director, Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed.)

    I have just received the exact same e-mail.
    Hopefully something is done about it.


  • #100
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I got it too, and also a response from the minister's office, which will reply to me in detail in due course.


  • #101
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Hopefully it's not an auto response :/


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