DB's fare stages

n97 mini · 20-12-2011 3:14pm #1

Anyone know how they're worked out? Is it simply bus stops?

One of my regular bus routes has had an extra stop installed mid-way on the route, which puts the total number of stops from 3 stops to 4. This has put my fare up from €1.20 to €1.65.

Is this how fare stages normally work?

coylemj · 20-12-2011 3:53pm

No it's not, a 'stage' is a bus stop but not all bus stops are stages. If you check the timetable for your route on www.dublinbus.ie you'll see the stages listed.

If you board between stages you pay from the previous stage and similarly if you alight between stages you pay the fare up to the next stage point.

The addition of a new bus stop on your route should have had no effect on your fare since you're travelling the same distance. If you're only travelling four stops then unless you're on a route with long gaps between stops, chances are you should still only be paying 1.20 as you're probably only clocking up two stages.

KD345 · 20-12-2011 3:58pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Anyone know how they're worked out? Is it simply bus stops?

One of my regular bus routes has had an extra stop installed mid-way on the route, which puts the total number of stops from 3 stops to 4. This has put my fare up from €1.20 to €1.65.

Is this how fare stages normally work?

Stage points are not based on the number of bus stops, but a distance on the route itself. On most routes it averages out at around 4 stops per stage, but it can vary depending on the route.

Adding stops mid stages should not have any impact on the fare, unless they have moved the stage point on your route. This is quite rare. Usually new stops just fit in around the existing stage markers.

dublinman1990 · 20-12-2011 7:04pm

Here's some example's here for which I would like to show you below.

From LIDL in Deansgrange (Deansgrange Cross) to Dun Laoghaire DART Station (Crofton Road), the fare is €1.65 for a choice of 3 routes, 46A,63 and the 75. On both the 46A and 75, they would go exactly the same route past Kill Avenue, which bypasses Monkstown Farm while going there.

The number of stops on the 46A and 75, not counting the stop you board, there is a total of 11 stops.

However, on the 63 the fare is the same, but completely different and smaller route. The number of stops on this route, not counting the stop you board, is a total of 15 stops, that's 4 extra stops.

The_Wrecker · 20-12-2011 11:25pm

As a driver on the 46a, ive limited knowledge of stage's since they have never been displayed since i joined the route. Foxrock to RTE is displayed on the machine as N11 Stillorgan rd, all the same. The NCR is the same from the Infirmary rd to Phibs's.

The whole stage systems need to be brought upto date with numbers on the stop and descriptions of locations from 2011 not 1970's....

foggy_lad · 20-12-2011 11:30pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Here's some example's here for which I would like to show you below.

From LIDL in Deansgrange (Deansgrange Cross) to Dun Laoghaire DART Station (Crofton Road), the fare is €1.65 for a choice of 3 routes, 46A,63 and the 75. On both the 46A and 75, they would go exactly the same route past Kill Avenue, which bypasses Monkstown Farm while going there.

The number of stops on the 46A and 75, not counting the stop you board, there is a total of 11 stops.

However, on the 63 the fare is the same, but completely different and smaller route. The number of stops on this route, not counting the stop you board, is a total of 15 stops, that's 4 extra stops.

Fare stages are unique to each bus route and not based on the actual journey so going from stage A to stage B on one bus could be 5 stages but it could be 8 stages on a different bus route to go between the exact same stops!

The_Wrecker · 21-12-2011 12:12am

The farm 63 has the same stages as the old 46A, Kill ave had a few crammed together for the then new rte75. But equal stages both routes kept the fares the same.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 12:19am

Wrecker,You can expect to have your head wrecked from the 1st January when passengers rather suddenly have to develop a knowledge of the stages,particularly when the difference could be as much as 70c :eek:

I forsee much too'ing and fro'ing,full n frank exchanges of views etc as,for now very few of our pasengers appear to know anything about Leap cards ...all they will see is the big Leap in their Fare !!

dublinman1990 · 21-12-2011 12:24am

I would intend to carry a leap card in the new year, It is better value for me because I think the stage fares are going to be too high to pay anyway.

cson · 21-12-2011 12:58am

Ah the mysterious stage system where it can cost one €1.20 to go 800m or 2km depending on where you board from.

Oh to have a flat fare and a tag on/tag off system.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 1:06am

cson wrote: »

Ah the mysterious stage system where it can cost one €1.20 to go 800m or 2km depending on where you board from.

Oh to have a flat fare and a tag on/tag off system.

But cson,with a Flat Fare there would be NO need to tag off at all,plus the tagging-on would need NO Driver interaction at all....Talk about a NO-Brainer.....It's SO obvious that few,if any of the Leapcard's originators are regular Bus Users.....:o

dfx- · 21-12-2011 1:34am

cson wrote: »

Ah the mysterious stage system where it can cost one €1.20 to go 800m or 2km depending on where you board from.

Oh to have a flat fare and a tag on/tag off system.

Why is it mysterious? It stays the same forever on a route, no?

cson · 21-12-2011 1:54am

dfx- wrote: »

Why is it mysterious? It stays the same forever on a route, no?

Mysterious in the sense as to how it was exactly formulated. As I've said above you can pay €1.20 and go both 800m and 2km depending on where you board.

cson · 21-12-2011 1:59am

AlekSmart wrote: »

But cson,with a Flat Fare there would be NO need to tag off at all,plus the tagging-on would need NO Driver interaction at all....Talk about a NO-Brainer.....It's SO obvious that few,if any of the Leapcard's originators are regular Bus Users.....:o

Off the top of my head; if you introduced a flat fare of €3 for all cash transactions on board and introduced a tag on/tag off system on the buses whereby you get on, tag on and tag off when exiting - the machines update as the bus travels as to how many 'stages' you've travelled [should be possible with the RTPI system I'd imagine]. Could possibly even introduce the double door buses where the second doors are exit only [TfL buses have this iirc]. Does that make sense?

Cookie_Monster · 21-12-2011 9:45am

coylemj wrote: »

If you board between stages you pay from the previous stage and similarly if you alight between stages you pay the fare up to the next stage point.

so they get you on both ends, that's a bit crap. I always assumed you only moved up a stage when you hit the point it starts, not if you were getting off slightly before :mad:

LXFlyer · 21-12-2011 10:19am

As explained previously the staged fare system goes back virtually to the days of the trams.

The system is constructed in such a way to try to achieve that bus routes on parallel corridors have fare stages at similar distances. It gets skewed where routes which take different corridors then subsequently join together - you can get very long gaps between stages so that when the routes meet they are on the same stages going forward.

I'll try to explain this simply.

Routes 14 and 16a take different routes from the city centre to Beaumont, one via Malahide Road and one via Beaumont Road.

They leave City Centre at stage 75 going north, and take their different routes. They both reach the junction with Collins Avenue (with Malahide Road on the 14 and with Swords Road on the 16) at stage 81, but in order to keep in line with each other and other routes, the next stage on the 14 is Beaumont Convalescent Home which is on Skelly's Lane near the entrance to Beaumont Hospital and on the 16a it is on Swords Road at the junction with Lorcan Road (in order to keep it in line with the 33 and 41). Otherwise you would have two different sets of stages all along the same route north of that point. It means that the distance between stage 81 and 82 on route 14 has to be the longest in Dublin!

You can find many other examples if you check out the stages of bus routes that deviate and rejoin at a later point.

The system needs a complete overhaul and to my mind the only acceptable solution is a simple zonal system.

LXFlyer · 21-12-2011 10:21am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so they get you on both ends, that's a bit crap. I always assumed you only moved up a stage when you hit the point it starts, not if you were getting off slightly before :mad:

Afraid not. You assumed wrongly.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/

Stages
The number of stages travelled is calculated by deducting the boarding stage number from the alighting stage number

Passengers boarding between stage points pay the appropriate fare from the preceding stage point. Passengers alighting between stage points pay the appropriate fare to the next stage point.

All route stages are listed under the timetables.

n97 mini · 21-12-2011 10:45am

Not having a dig at drivers here, but passengers especially with Leap cards should print off the list of fare stages for their routes to show bus drivers.

Here's the 46A stages from the DB site...

SandyfordGuy · 21-12-2011 11:37am

On the Dublin Bus timetable posters at bus shelters it clearly states that the stages are calculated by the number of stages you cross.

foggy_lad · 21-12-2011 12:30pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Afraid not. You assumed wrongly.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/

How are passengers supposed to know where these stages are? There are no signs or no markings on bus stops and even the information on the official timetables is no longer accurate because of changes to place names etc so what used to refer to one bus stop may now refer to a completely different stop which is not the stage point.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 12:33pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Not having a dig at drivers here, but passengers especially with Leap cards should print off the list of fare stages for their routes to show bus drivers.

Here's the 46A stages from the DB site...

Thats not something you should need to do n97mini,if the actual stage was identified on-the-ground.

Several of those stages are ambiguous,with references to streets and roads where there are several stops...which stop is Stage 73 ...the one before or after Pembroke St ?
Which stop is Stage 76,Blessington St has 3....and most worryingly most of the ambigious Stages are always at Fare relevant points..ie: the difference betwen €1.20 and €1.65 for a great many City Centre bound passengers.

This is replicated right across the system with,particularly from January 1st,the potential for great frustration and anger as the 15% increase kicks in !!! :eek:

It really is the most bizzarre setup imaginable that a Public Transport Company would actively seek to conceal such basic,important information from it's customers....GUBU is about the best description I can come up with ....:o

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 12:40pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

How are passengers supposed to know where these stages are? There are no signs or no markings on bus stops and even the information on the official timetables is no longer accurate because of changes to place names etc so what used to refer to one bus stop may now refer to a completely different stop which is not the stage point.

Absolutely correct and proper Foggy_Lad.

I may be wrong,but I also suspect that any attempt by Dublin Bus to pursue a case for Fare Evasion based on (Rampant) over-riding,would collapse in Court as soon as a Judge was advised that the Company refuse to reasonably identify their own Fare-Stage points,either to passengers or staff,thereby making compliance with the bye-laws extremely difficult.

A totally contrived issue,immediately solveable at little cost,and which should never have been allowed to happen in the first instance. :mad:

LXFlyer · 21-12-2011 2:00pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

How are passengers supposed to know where these stages are? There are no signs or no markings on bus stops and even the information on the official timetables is no longer accurate because of changes to place names etc so what used to refer to one bus stop may now refer to a completely different stop which is not the stage point.

If you see in post #16 above I stated that the entire system needs an overhaul and should be replaced by zones.

coylemj · 21-12-2011 2:03pm

Stages used to be identified by a sign along the lines of 'Stage Point' at the bus stops which were stages, they no longer are so the only source nowadays as far as I know is the DB website.

Given that bus drivers got no very little training on the Leap Card, it's no surprise that they seem completely clueless as to fare stages.

I think DB has the same problem as An Post, there is a 'them and us' attitude between the workers and management. Anything that smacks remotely like a change to work practices leads to claims for a 'productivity increase' i.e. blackmail so the management do as little as possible and just pretend they're only tweaking the system.

bk · 21-12-2011 2:15pm

lxflyer wrote: »

If you see in post #16 above I stated that the entire system needs an overhaul and should be replaced by zones.

I don't see a zonal system helping significantly.

While it would simplify the stage fare system and make it easier to understand, people would still need to interact with the drivers and you wouldn't get the benefit of LEAP card and reduced dwell times.

LXFlyer · 21-12-2011 2:34pm

bk wrote: »

I don't see a zonal system helping significantly.

While it would simplify the stage fare system and make it easier to understand, people would still need to interact with the drivers and you wouldn't get the benefit of LEAP card and reduced dwell times.

I concur - but given the current financial situation I don't think the company is prepared to risk a drop in farebox revenue that could result from the implementation of a flat fare system.

You may feel that that may not happen, but I suspect that the company just does not want to take that risk. The danger is that if farebox revenue drops, more service cuts will have to be implemented. I would stress this is my personal opinion, I don't know what the company view actually is. However, they do always tend to be very conservative in their approach, probably because they have been burnt politically so many times over the years.

If we assume that is the case, then frankly a zonal system is the only way to go forward with clear markings on bus stops at each zonal boundary.

It will not remove the driver interaction or dwell time issue but right now that is not (in my view) the main issue for the company - maintaining revenue is (rightly or wrongly).

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 2:43pm

coylemj wrote: »

Stages used to be identified by a sign along the lines of 'Stage Point' at the bus stops which were stages, they no longer are so the only source nowadays as far as I know is the DB website.

Given that bus drivers got no very little training on the Leap Card, it's no surprise that they seem completely clueless as to fare stages.

I think DB has the same problem as An Post, there is a 'them and us' attitude between the workers and management. Anything that smacks remotely like a change to work practices leads to claims for a 'productivity increase' i.e. blackmail so the management do as little as possible and just pretend they're only tweaking the system.

The productivity element in Dublin Bus has long since been sorted.
The reality is that the last major productivity deal embraced a full compliance with future technology element.

This has allowed the full introduction of new Radio systems,CCTV,Ticketing Systems , RTPI etc without any IR problems.

This is a very far cry from the 1980's when, I can guarantee,such changes in Work Practices would have been fraught with problems.

It's interesting that with the Fare Stage situation,it's the older driver base,particularly those who were conductors,who know the Stages inside out...there is,worryingly,now a significant number of Busdrivers who have NEVER seen or operated a route with Stages displayed on street.

robd · 21-12-2011 3:26pm

bk wrote: »

I don't see a zonal system helping significantly.

While it would simplify the stage fare system and make it easier to understand, people would still need to interact with the drivers and you wouldn't get the benefit of LEAP card and reduced dwell times.

I don't agree. Zonal systems work by the simple method of colours. You can easily have a zonal system which roughly matches the current stage system and hence meets requirements of Dublin Bus not losing revenue for most cases (except cross city).

Big advantage is you could just place a colour visual indicator on stops. Passengers and drivers would know with confidence which zone they're in and how many zones they're going.

I see people getting on at my stop (1.85) to city centre and paying 1.65 or 1.20. It's rare for driver to even question them these days. Probably not worth the abuse and hassle all round. Dublin Bus must be losing a fortune with over stoppers these days.

bk · 21-12-2011 3:46pm

I agree DB are probably afraid to make a jump to flat fare due to being afraid of the unknown.

However just thinking about this between ourselves, in reality, I don't think it would lead to any danger of lose of fare income.

Based on the current fare structure, there really isn't that much difference between fares, it ranges from €1.20 to €1.90 *, with the vast majority of people paying €1.65 and €1.85

It would seem to me a flat cash fare of €2.50 and flat leap fare of €1.70 to €1.80 should be achievable, without a major lose of revenue.

One major benefit of this would be all the 1.20 and 1.65 fares we all know that people regularly pay (either on purpose or due to not knowing the correct fare) for longer journeys. Fare evasion becomes much less of an issue.

DB would also gain from the extra revenue cash people pay, while also benefiting from decreased dwell times and eventually no cash handling costs.

I find it hard to believe that it couldn't be accurately modelled by statistics by some consultants, so that there would be no revenue lose.

I can only think that they don't do it for two reasons:
1) Fear of change
2) Political interference, all the political meddling there would be from people complaining about having to pay a higher cash fee.

* I find it hard to believe that many people pay more then 1.90 with the travel 90 tickets available. In many ways the travel 90 shows what price DB consider a flat fare to be.

LXFlyer · 21-12-2011 4:21pm

I understand your points, and while you may consider them valid, I do feel that the company does not want to take that risk given the subsidy is being cut back further.

You may well be correct, but at the end of the day if the company did switch to a flat fare and farebox revenue fell (it is a risk), then I suspect it would be very difficult to switch back. The company would then be at a loss and the only result would be further cutbacks.

Assuming that is the case, I would at the very least advocate a switch to a zonal structure rather than perpetuating with the staged fare system.

Further to your comment, I'm constantly surprised at the number of people still regularly paying EUR 2.30 cash every day despite the Travel 90 ticket existing. I've heard drivers telling them about it and yet they still continue to pay cash!

markpb · 21-12-2011 4:55pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Further to your comment, I'm constantly surprised at the number of people still regularly paying EUR 2.30 cash every day despite the Travel 90 ticket existing. I've heard drivers telling them about it and yet they still continue to pay cash!

I'm not amazed any more - lots of people I know do this (not that I'm defending it!). Maybe the shop beside where they live doesn't sell bus tickets or they find it hard to keep track of how many they've used, etc, etc. Ultimately, unless there's a marked difference between cash and prepaid (40c isn't massive to lazy people) and Dublin Bus actively stop accepting cash at busy stops, it won't happen.

DB's fare stages

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