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Help with Freeview across the sea to Co.Down?

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    #32
    Peddyr
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Peddyr


    reboot wrote: »
    Thank you for that,if a man wanted to buy a" basic " frewview HD Set top box,where would he look and what would he buy.?

    Technika STBHDV2010 Freeview HD Set Top Box. I've got one from Tesco for £70. it's basic to say the least and so far it's doing Irish DTT and the RTENL HD test looks great! At least at £70 it won't break the bank hopefully!

    See: http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.208-0359.aspx


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    #33
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Peddyr wrote: »
    Technika STBHDV2010 Freeview HD Set Top Box. I've got one from Tesco for £70. it's basic to say the least and so far it's doing Irish DTT and the RTENL HD test looks great! At least at £70 it won't break the bank hopefully!

    See: http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.208-0359.aspx
    Thanks for the info,not bad reviews,apart from slowness,bad graphics on epg and picture frooze.
    For the money(£30 off £100),I could live with all that.Would have to convince folks at this location to give SKY HD up,big job.
    Would buy the box for my own location,near Casltewellan,but no signal. Only hope for the future of freeview HD,appears to be Leitrim TX around 2013.In the meantime maybe its back to another thread on 13 and 19 degrees,where getting a signal from 22,000 miles away is no problem.


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    #34
    Peddyr
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Peddyr


    reboot wrote: »
    Thanks for the info,not bad reviews,apart from slowness,bad graphics on epg and picture frooze.
    For the money(£30 off £100),I could live with all that.Would have to convince folks at this location to give SKY HD up,big job.
    Would buy the box for my own location,near Casltewellan,but no signal. Only hope for the future of freeview HD,appears to be Leitrim TX around 2013.In the meantime maybe its back to another thread on 13 and 19 degrees,where getting a signal from 22,000 miles away is no problem.

    Mine's actually not been too bad but it lacks any sort of decent usable feature. A manual scan would be a god send as if you try to add more channels you have to do an automatic scan and if any of your already stored muxes happen to be weak when you scan, the box just totally ovewrites all previously stored channels with only the muxes it can detect. Quite disappointing actually but hey ho as they say!

    Most MPEG4 HD boxes are about the same price and are often 'feature' packed. T2 boxes are way too expensive in comparison imo!


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    #35
    Sam the Aerialman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭Sam the Aerialman


    lawhec wrote: »
    There's been an unconfirmed (though likely to be reliable as it came from a broadcast engineer) report of DTT reception from the Winter Hill transmitter after DSO took place there earlier this year in parts of the East Down coast that had a clear view of the Irish Sea. Winter Hill serves the NW of England (Manchester, Liverpool, Blackburn, Preston etc) and parts of North Wales, so it may be worth a shot. Again propagation may prove to be a factor in reliable long-term reception.

    Where did this notion that Winter Hill was available on the County Down coast? On very high inland ground yes it is available but it's not reliable the propagation factors made it useless. I remember working at a National Trust property near Clanvaraghan, BBC1 North West would be there one hour and not a peep the next. Mux1 on pre DSO Freeview used to get in on a clear day but any cloud cover and disappeared. Also Newcastle was and is still co-channel Winter Hill.

    A lot of folks in Ballymartin and Annalong can make use of Moel Y Parc, there's horizontal aerials along the coast road looking south and out to sea. They're looking at Kippure for RTE, i set up aerial systems in higher parts of Annalong were they could get DTT tests from Clermont but can't recall anything from Three rock.


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    #36
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,015 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Sam the Aerialman wrote: »
    Where did this notion that Winter Hill was available on the County Down coast? On very high inland ground yes it is available but it's not reliable the propagation factors made it useless. I remember working at a National Trust property near Clanvaraghan, BBC1 North West would be there one hour and not a peep the next. Mux1 on pre DSO Freeview used to get in on a clear day but any cloud cover and disappeared. Also Newcastle was and is still co-channel Winter Hill.

    Caldbeck (BBC multiplex) has appeared as a placeholder on my Sony idtv (I live in Moira c15 miles SW of Belfast) but no picture as yet. Cambret Hill (both BBC/ITV) can be received with both picture and sound on my Church Hall Panasonic idtvs in good weather conditions.


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    #37
    Peddyr
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Peddyr


    reboot wrote: »
    Thanks for the info,not bad reviews,apart from slowness,bad graphics on epg and picture frooze.
    For the money(£30 off £100),I could live with all that.Would have to convince folks at this location to give SKY HD up,big job.
    Would buy the box for my own location,near Casltewellan,but no signal. Only hope for the future of freeview HD,appears to be Leitrim TX around 2013.In the meantime maybe its back to another thread on 13 and 19 degrees,where getting a signal from 22,000 miles away is no problem.

    @Reboot

    Any luck getting Freeview HD from IOM TXs on ch50? It's not as strong as the other two muxes and I'm only 1 1/2 miles from the TX in PSM!


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    #38
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Peddyr wrote: »
    @Reboot

    Any luck getting Freeview HD from IOM TXs on ch50? It's not as strong as the other two muxes and I'm only 1 1/2 miles from the TX in PSM!
    Sorry I can't help,haven't forked out for any DVB-T2 STB yet.
    The woman will complain about too many wires.She may be right as she can receive SKY HD,and may not see the point of spending money for the same or less channels.
    Also I thought you were less happy about the Tesco box.
    Might be worth a punt though, if RTE comes up on the same STB,allowing two progs to be recorded on SKY box while watching another.
    Keep watching this space.


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    #39
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Peddyr wrote: »
    Well done Reboot!

    Port St Mary TX is only 47 miles from Annalong and Beary Pairk is 53 miles. Not sure which one you're getting as they both same frequencies (SFN), so if you miss one with your aerial you'll get the other!

    Only thing is they're "Freeview Lite" on only 2 muxes. HD in October. IOM changed from Border TV region to Granada at DSO last summer. Interesting as IOM is not part of UK and I have no interesting in what's happening in N West of England when it comes to regional news & waeather. IOM not viable to have our own TV station but UK quick to take license money though!

    I'm at a good location for surrounding DTT from Ireland and UK at height of approx 400ft ASL and can get good signals from Divis, Three Rock and Kippure. Clermont Carn good too but only analogue. A UK T2 box will get you both UK and Irish DTT, but a bit pricy yet though.

    Hope you get your water ingress problem sorted and happy viewing!
    What kind of HD reception are youfinding on CH 50?looking towards IOM from Down?


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    #40
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    reboot wrote: »
    Thank you for that,if a man wanted to buy a" basic " frewview HD Set top box,where would he look and what would he buy.?
    In light of the discussion on the difficulties I have experienced on the "Digital TV aerial myth" Thread,re Freeview HD reception,I wonder if people should consider the following when buying a Freeview HD DVB-T/T2 STB or TV?
    Just because I can receive SD Freewiew,in this case from the "Lite" relay on Isle of Mann 100% Signal strength,and quality,does not mean that I will receive the HD Mux on CH 50.
    The latest info courtesy of "Peter Rhea",The DUK postcode checker shows "An improvement in the HD Mux from the IOM after "A reception change"
    So ,just pointing out the disappointment ,after buying a Sony Bravia Freeview HD,no or very poor HD reception in this case,anyone else come across this "Reception change" on HD Mux?


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    #41
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Peddyr wrote: »
    @Reboot

    Any luck getting Freeview HD from IOM TXs on ch50? It's not as strong as the other two muxes and I'm only 1 1/2 miles from the TX in PSM!
    Update on HD IOM reception from S.Down.
    Don't know if you have been following Thread on "Digital TV Aerial Myth",and the news that after forking out for the Sony Bravia Freeview HD tele.very poor or no HD reception on CH 50 IOM.In spite of 100% Signal /Quality on Freeview SD 43 and 46.
    Latest info comes courtesy of "Peter Rhea" that an improvement in the HD Mux on CH 50 will come from a "Reception Change in May"(DUK postcode Checker.
    So maybe it wasn't my setup at fault after all?


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    #42
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The DVB-T2 HD muxes are mostly low power to avoid interference.


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    #43
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    watty wrote: »
    The DVB-T2 HD muxes are mostly low power to avoid interference.
    Some big word like "SYNCRONICITY?",I JUST POSTED THAT AS A WILD GUESS TO "Peter Rhea" 0n "Digital Aerial Myth thread"Sorry about capitals.
    Perhaps you can suggest why I am having problems clicking onto "This thread is located at" sometimes I have to go through the whole Terrestial Boards again the get the reply?
    Back to the HD Mux reception I have been rambling on about for weeks,is this going to appear at other Tx sites and disappoint folk who forked out on STB boxes and Freeview HD TVs only to find poor or no reception on the HD mux?(Information in today thanks to Peter,re An improvement from the IOM HD mux after a "Reception change in May"(DUK postcode checker)


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    #44
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Get a different Browser.
    Firefox is fine.


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    #45
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    watty wrote: »
    Get a different Browser.
    Firefox is fine.
    Thank you,will look into it.


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    #46
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    watty wrote: »
    The DVB-T2 HD muxes are mostly low power to avoid interference.
    Sorry if this is off thread,but very important to some folk.
    If a professional Sound recordist was worried about the future of radio mic reception on 850-860 Mhz,am I right in thinking that it may only be a problem in the range of Freeview Channels 60 to 69?,most rural txs in the North?,but not in Belfast for example in the 23 and 30's?
    Hope this makes sense and is still revelant to the Thread.


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    #47
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Have a look here :

    http://www.jfmg.co.uk/

    Should answer all your questions.


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    #48
    reslfj
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭reslfj


    reboot wrote: »
    If a professional Sound recordist was worried about the future of radio mic reception on 850-860 Mhz,am I right in thinking that it may only be a problem in the range of Freeview Channels 60 to 69.

    No you are NOT. Channel 61-69 will no longer be used for DTT, but everywher for 4G (LTE) mobile phone/broadband from sometime in 2013. It is unlikely that PMSE equipment will be allowed in this band. There will be an 11 MHz (821-832 MHz) between LTE download and LTE upload. It may or may not be OK for PMSE equipment - AFAIK.

    In the UK channel 38 + interleaved UHF spectrum below channle 61 will be licensed for PMSE.

    Channel 61-69 is called the 800 MHz band. Search the Ofcom.org.uk page and you will find more info. Or read
    http://www.comreg.ie/publications/consultation_-_future_spectrum_availability_for_programme_making_and_special_events.506.103622.p.html


    Lars :)


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    #49
    Peddyr
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Peddyr


    reboot wrote: »
    Update on HD IOM reception from S.Down.
    Don't know if you have been following Thread on "Digital TV Aerial Myth",and the news that after forking out for the Sony Bravia Freeview HD tele.very poor or no HD reception on CH 50 IOM.In spite of 100% Signal /Quality on Freeview SD 43 and 46.
    Latest info comes courtesy of "Peter Rhea" that an improvement in the HD Mux on CH 50 will come from a "Reception Change in May"(DUK postcode Checker.
    So maybe it wasn't my setup at fault after all?

    Any improvement on Freeview HD from PSM TX at all? According to this, the HD is same ERP as the SD muxes.


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    #50
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Peddyr wrote: »
    Any improvement on Freeview HD from PSM TX at all? According to this, the HD is same ERP as the SD muxes.
    No improvement,If I may quote Watty on Thread "Digital TV Aerial Myth 2""The DVB-T2 Mux are typically running at lower power/data rate ratio than regular Freeview .Obviously outside the coverage area you might need a higher gain aerial than plain Freeview.Its a red herring to the discussion"
    I don't know if this is of any import to what we are discussing,but I know what I am not seeing re HD Freeview ,and think it is not my setup as RTE 2 ramps in on HD no problem,allowingfor ERP etc,across the same sea.


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    #51
    Vince Cable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Vince Cable


    reboot wrote: »
    . . . I know what I am not seeing re HD Freeview ,and think it is not my setup as RTE 2 ramps in on HD no problem,allowingfor ERP etc,across the same sea.

    UK Freeview HD vs. Saorview RTE2; let me see . . . different transmitter(s) in different country's network, different modulation method (though T2 should be better), not really much of a comparison.

    Hopefully things will improve next month.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Your problem on hd may well be co channel from the Llandonna tx on Anglesea or moel y parc.

    The latter in this thread is reported as receivable in parts of Eastern NI anyway.
    It only takes very little co channel to make one or other of the competing muxes unviewable.
    They wouldn't have the same data sets so couldn't be an sfn.

    Llandonna sometimes destroys ch 50 presely hd services here in Wicklow,despite the aerial being pointed sw as opposed to NW.
    Llandonna would not be a reliable tx for here but moel y parc seems to be used near you so probably is an anchor tennant on the airwaves in your area and seems likely to be be your problem.
    See sam the aerialman's post here .

    If thats the case,you'll need to wait for NI dso next year for terrestrial UK hd.


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    #53
    Vince Cable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Vince Cable


    Moel-Y-Parc doesn't use UHF 50 & Llanddona is co-channel on all the IOM muxes.


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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Well that rules out moel y parc then.
    It doesn't rule out llandonna though and I'll explain why I think that.



    Just to add to the conjecture,in my own experience down here,Llandonna often blocks ch 50 presely here before it ever touches presely on 43 and 46
    I can confirm that as a fact.In fact it mostly does in ch 50 and not 43 and 46 presely,9 times out of 10 when it's lifted.
    So that means it could easily be the problem..combined with what peter Rhea was saying about the iom's radiation pattern on 50.
    It would be worth doing a manual tune on ch 60 and see if you get anything or a signal check on that mux to see if stuff gets in from there.
    It finds it's way to wicklow on a group B no problem prior to rain and is usually there on a meter.

    Llandonna by the way displays the same funny receiving characteristics of presely in that it gets strong just before it rains,as it clouds over.
    It's something to do with atmospherics or water vapour,I simply don't know and it doesn't happen all the time.If only the clouds could talk :pac:


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thinking about this a bit more [you have my mind going now..],theres another poster on this forum who using a unix 100 group B in waterford [passage East I think] can get the main presely muxes on 42,43 and 46 even ch 49 but not the full power hd mux ch 50
    I don't know what local tx near there would be operating on ch 50 close enough to be a problem
    That lends weight to the something about T2 theory and hd muxes that watty said.They're published as being their full allocated erp's though :confused:

    Looking at this ch 50 GB map,I can't think of anything there that could be interfering either for waterford,other than the hd mux not traveling aswell.
    The area isn't as good a presely area as north wexford but receives signal and is having similar 50 problems as you apparently.

    Perhaps it's the fact that hd has more information to carry than the sd muxes and some of it is getting lost or not error corrected enough?
    You've already said you are using a wideband amp-just double check what frequencies it is good for and doubly sure that it is 21-60 and not 21 to 47 or something like that-long shot I know but worth checking and double checking.

    Anyhow those are my further thoughts for now.Can't think of anything else off hand.


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    #56
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deleted User wrote: »

    Perhaps it's the fact that hd has more information to carry than the sd muxes and some of it is getting lost or not error corrected enough?

    I think the major difference between FreeviewHD and Saorview is the use of T2 encoding. This puts more emphasis on the compactness of the coding to get more out of the transmission, and there is no free lunch. The cost is obviouly robustness of the transmission. Now I understood that the UK had chosen parametrs that allowed the same reception of the muxes for both T1/MPEG2 and T2/MPEG4. That may be true for local reception, but may not apply for Dx reception. This may be more marked for multi-path and multiple co-channel reception.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    True Sam but theres a lot of truth in what watty describes as aerials being a black art aswell.
    Arfons hd mux is working very well alongside it's sd muxes in Arklow and thats with just 2kw erp and a long seapath albeit from one of these islands highest tx sites.
    It gets destroyed sometimes in redruth cornwall lifts mind you.


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    #58
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I do not think the aerial has anything to do with it. The RF is received if it is there. It is the coding that becomes fragile during cc interference conditions. The error correcting can only do so much, and the more that is crammed into the signal, the more fragile it becomes.

    Think of compact dsks, CDs - If the CD gets scatched radially, the error correcting works, but put a scatch around the disk, as happens when someone cleans the disk with a coarse cloth, twisting the disk about its centre, it is unplayable. If there is a significant dead time in the transmission, there is no chance of correcting the signal.

    I think we are in the early days yet for this technology. When we start getting protracted lifts that knockout the signal for days, I think the pressure for a solution will cause a rethink. The route could well be a lower population of channels per mux, and extensive use of SFNs. We could use VHF yet as a solution.:)


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Well you could say the black art of transmission too.
    When uk dtt first started,the uk engineers at presely were in contact with an installer in wexford varying signal strength and asking him if he could still receive it.They were amazed at such low power.

    I'd say very little testing of long distance sea path reception and co channel has been done.The 6 months of mt leinster 4 mux broadcasting was probably an eye opener.

    Des from rtenl told us at the saorview trade seminar,the other week, that vhf hasn't been ruled out at all.


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    #60
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well you could say the black art of transmission too.
    When uk dtt first started,the uk engineers at presely were in contact with an installer in wexford varying signal strength and asking him if he could still receive it.They were amazed at such low power.

    I'd say very little testing of long distance sea path reception and co channel has been done.The 6 months of mt leinster 4 mux broadcasting was probably an eye opener.

    Des from rtenl told us at the saorview trade seminar,the other week, that vhf hasn't been ruled out at all.

    It is deffinitely in the spec. I would be dusting down the VHF testgear if I were in RTENL. A VHF SF network could be whats needed for the east coast. VHF has better propagation than UHF, and would go forever across the midlands. You might get Mt Leinster in Galway.:)


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    #61
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Des from rtenl told us at the saorview trade seminar,the other week, that vhf hasn't been ruled out at all.

    Interesting indeed, thanks for that info BB. Back in Aug last year I posted this in reply to lawhec.
    The Cush wrote: »
    lawhec wrote: »
    In Europe, with the idea of freeing up frequencies from 798MHz for non-broadcasting purposes (read most likely for mobile phone use), there might be pressures on finding frequencies to fit multiplexes in that have to be moved. In countries that had or are still broadcasting TV on Band III, it might open up again in due course.
    Posted similar last year.

    In 2007 Comreg's position on Band III was "Band III may be considered post analogue switch off" later in 2008 their position changed to "It is intended that Band III will not be used as part of Irelands National DTT service, which is due to launch late 2009". This position has to be declared officially before ASO so that existing VHF aerials are not unnecessarily removed if Comreg has a change of heart later on VHF DTT.

    My brother plans to remove his Mullaghanish VHF aerial in the next few months once Saorview is fully launched (to reduce clutter, having only installed it on his new house last summer).

    I think we need clarification from RTÉNL/Comreg on any future plans for VHF DTT.

    VHF DTT frequencies allocated at RRC-06
    DVB-T VHF Channels (7 MHz) allocated to Ireland at RRC-06
    5 (174 - 181) - IRL DTT NTH WEST, IRL DTT STH EAST
    6 (181 - 188) - IRL DTT WEST
    7 (188 - 195) - IRL DTT MIDLANDS
    8 (195 - 202) - IRL DTT EAST
    9 (202 - 209) - IRL DTT NTH EAST, IRL DTT STH WEST


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