Why I won't be voting Sinn Fein

Amazotheamazing · 26-01-2011 12:07am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That makes no sense. Because the government pay senior civil servants too much then they deserve it? What?

Not necessarily, but if a guy sets up a business, makes it worth millions through his own skills, abilities and hard work, does he deserve to be punitively taxed for his efforts?

Not every high earner in Ireland just stumbled into the job, most are there because they worked hard and made the most of their natural talent and abilities. For some reason there's a belief among some on the left that every high earner is just a talentless bastard who got lucky.

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 12:10am

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

For some reason there's a belief among some on the left that every high earner is just a talentless bastard who got lucky.

Nope, while it's accepted those with talent and application will be amongst the highest earners, €200,000 is still overpaid for many public servants.

26-01-2011 12:19am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You can label yourself as making this debate rubbish if you so wish. That's up to you.
Yes, many farmers do not deserve what they get, mainly thanks to inheriting vast amounts of land/wealth and the CAP preventing them from ever having to face the reality of market forces. It's free money.

you want free food?
You've absolutely no knowledge of agriculture going on the basis of the above or it's increasing role in exports here and jobs and economy,I suggest you have a chat with martin ferris,SF agriculture spokesperson about this.
He's not going to agree with you.

Badly informed shoulder chip much.

Amazotheamazing · 26-01-2011 12:19am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nope, while it's accepted those with talent and application will be amongst the highest earners, €200,000 is still overpaid for many public servants.

I agree, no one is saying their won't be cuts to wages in the future but a wealth tax will apply across the board, to the overpaid and those who made their wealth through their own endeavors.

BLIZZARD7 · 26-01-2011 12:30am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That makes no sense. Because the government pay senior civil servants too much then they deserve it? What?

It does make sense, that's not what I said, I said that it's not their fault that they earn too much, it's given to them.

Dan

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 12:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

you want free food?
You've absolutely no knowledge of agriculture going on the basis of the above or it's increasing role in exports here and jobs and economy,I suggest you have a chat with martin ferris,SF agriculture spokesperson about this.
He's not going to agree with you.

Badly informed shoulder chip much.

Free food? If it wasn't for intervention it'd be a fraction of the current cost! Who's side are you trying to argue here?!?!?
Nicely cut 'n' paste from the IFA pamphlet anyway. More money goes into Irish farming than it will ever make for the country, what is it, about €2 billion a year?
Don't kid yourselves farming is a big player anymore. Big earner maybe.

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 12:36am

BLIZZARD7 wrote: »

It does make sense, that's not what I said, I said that it's not their fault that they earn too much, it's given to them.

But you are aware of the word "deserve" and what it means? Could you put it into a sentence with the phrase "senior civil servant pay"?

26-01-2011 12:44am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Free food? If it wasn't for intervention it'd be a fraction of the current cost! Who's side are you trying to argue here?!?!?
Nicely cut 'n' paste from the IFA pamphlet anyway. More money goes into Irish farming than it will ever make for the country, what is it, about €2 billion a year?
Don't kid yourselves farming is a big player anymore. Big earner maybe.

pure rubbish lad,but you're entitled to have that kind of ill informed minority view if you wish.

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 12:48am

Deleted User wrote: »

pure rubbish lad,but you're entitled to have that kind of ill informed minority view if you wish.

Wow, your complete lack of specifics makes your case so convincing.
Puh-lease.

26-01-2011 12:49am

says the pot to the kettle

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 12:56am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Free food? If it wasn't for intervention it'd be a fraction of the current cost! Who's side are you trying to argue here?!?!?

That's pretty specific. Would food in the shops be cheaper or more expensive if it wasn't for intervention?
You'll probably say it's still "not specific" I suppose...

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 12:58am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

More money goes into Irish farming than it will ever make for the country, what is it, about €2 billion a year?

What do you know, another very specific statement. I suppose that doesn't count either though...

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 1:22am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You can label yourself as making this debate rubbish if you so wish. That's up to you.
Yes, many farmers do not deserve what they get, mainly thanks to inheriting vast amounts of land/wealth and the CAP preventing them from ever having to face the reality of market forces. It's free money.

That's about as ignorant and uneducated statement about the agri sector as I have seen in quite a while

BLIZZARD7 · 26-01-2011 1:37am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But you are aware of the word "deserve" and what it means? Could you put it into a sentence with the phrase "senior civil servant pay"?

Of coarse I know what deserve means, are you trying to make a point or insult my intelligence? Yes I could but I don't see it necessary, some of the highly paid civil servants might deserve what they get and neither you or I can say any different as we don't know what each and every senior civil servant does every day.

And I agree your opinion of farmers is very uneducated and ignorant.

This has gotten very off topic by the way.

Dan

26-01-2011 1:45am

Dan_Solo wrote:

More money goes into Irish farming than it will ever make for the country, what is it, about €2 billion a year?

Go read up and educate yourself on agriculture before saying the kind of things,you've said about it here..your ignominious posts in my opinion in the last few pages are just shoulder chips.Single farm payments by the way are European government agreed funds,of which the irish taxpayer contributes not one penny.
no party diss's agriculture like you've done but rather recognise it's one of the few growth potential sectors in our otherwise shrunken economy.

http://irishfoodmagazine.com/pdf/2010/international.pdf

Export trade
The agriculture and food industry plays an
important role in the Irish economy and remains
its largest indigenous sector accounting for
almost 9 per cent of employment and 10 per
cent of exports. As much as 65 per cent of
manufacturing exports by Irish-owned firms are
estimated to consist of food and drink. The value
of Irish food and drink exports declined by 12
per cent last year, or by just under €1 billion, to
stand at €7.12 billion.
A sustained decline in the value of sterling
combined with the economic downturn and
severe difficulties in the global dairy market
created unprecedented challenges for Irish food
and drink exporters in 2009, according to Bord
Bia’s Export Performance and Prospects report.
However, the long-term outlook for the sector,
with its high export orientation, remains positive.
Due to an expanding world population and
evolving demographics, the world will need to
produce over 40 per cent more food by 2030 and
some 70 per cent more by 2050. It will have to
do so from fixed resources while minimising its
impact on the environment

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 1:48am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What do you know, another very specific statement. I suppose that doesn't count either though...

That money is majority paid from the EU budget and not the Irish government budget and is paid for many reasons. It could be seen as an export or foreign direct investment

If you have a problem with subsidies then I wonder do you have a problem with our hugely subsidised transport system or a whole range of other aspects of society that people don't really know what they cost but are state or EU funded or part funded

With regards to prices you sir are in for a bit of a shock

Pigs: currently being sold by farmers for about 30 cent a kg LESS than the costs of production. Currently a farmer receives 17% of the retail price of pork
Beef: finished prices for cattle in brazil, the worlds biggest exporter, are currently higher than in Ireland
Dairy: our grass based dairy system means we can produce milk cheaper than anywhere in the world, bar New Zeland, which is why we can so easily find a home for all the milk we produce, about 85% of which is exported in 1 form or other
Tillage: grain currently trades at world prices, most farmers this year received less than the world prices as they stand today

So I'm not sure where your arguement is going but I am looking forward to your detailed response to it

In that response you might also detail how intervention has been used in EU agriculture since the year 2000, so we can discuss it's effect on prices

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 1:54am

Tipp Man wrote: »

With regards to prices you sir are in for a bit of a shock

No shock at all. Those are prices propped up by EU intervention and would be lower still for consumers without the CAP. These are simple facts that no amount of irrelevant data about how much under the cost of production (who brought that up? You did.) food is sold by farmers for is going to change.
If you don't think the CAP is to keep food prices (= farmer income) artificially high, then would you mind telling us what it is actually for? This I can't wait to hear...

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 2:00am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

No shock at all. Those are prices propped up by EU intervention and would be lower still for consumers without the CAP. These are simple facts that no amount of irrelevant data about how much under the cost of production (who brought that up? You did.) food is sold by farmers for is going to change.
If you don't think the CAP is to keep food prices (= farmer income) artificially high, then would you mind telling us what it is actually for? This I can't wait to hear...

What intervention exactly is keeping the price of your food up??

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 2:05am

Tipp Man wrote: »

What intervention exactly is keeping the price of your food up??

Only intervention policy on a few things...

cereal, rice, potatoes
oil
dried fodder
milk and milk products, wine, honey
beef and veal, poultry meat and eggs, pig meat, sheep / lamb meat and goat meat
sugar
fruit and vegetables
cotton
peas, field beans
sweet lupins
olives
seed flax
silkworms
fibre flax
hemp
tobacco
hops
seeds
flowers and live plants
animal feed stuffs

You know, just one or two things...

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 2:07am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

These are simple facts that no amount of irrelevant data about how much under the cost of production (who brought that up? You did.) food is sold by farmers for is going to change.
If you don't think the CAP is to keep food prices (= farmer income) artificially high, then would you mind telling us what it is actually for? This I can't wait to hear...

Did you actually mean to write this garbage or is tiredness getting to you. You tell me 1 industry in the world this is continuously expected to produce under the costs of production??

Now how you can say that the costs if production are unrelated to A) the selling prices of items and b) the CAP is beyond me. They are obviously a major factor which you seem to want to conveniently ignore

Me thinks that you are not a businessman

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 2:13am

Tipp Man wrote: »

Did you actually mean to write this garbage or is tiredness getting to you. You tell me 1 industry in the world this is continuously expected to produce under the costs of production??

Now how you can say that the costs if production are unrelated to A) the selling prices of items and b) the CAP is beyond me. They are obviously a major factor which you seem to want to conveniently ignore

Me thinks that you are not a businessman

WTH? Who said I expected them to continue? If they're losing money hand over fist then why do they deserve to continue? We have €7 billion in exports, and that's great, but that's with what, €2 billion from the EU and €3 billion from the Department Of Agriculture. Care to subtract those numbers and see exactly how well Irish farmers would do on a level playing field?
When the newer EU countries get a bigger share of the CAP we'll see how long our "valuable" farming sector lasts.
A businessman? Doesn't sound all that tough when €5 out of every €7 you get is handed to you for doing nothing...

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 2:14am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Only intervention policy on a few things...

Snip
You know, just one or two things...

2 things

Firstly I meant the volume of produce that Ireland sent to intervention or the volume of produce in intervention for products ireland produces. not the list of items that could be covered

Secondly I'm just wondering where you copy pasted that list from

Thirdly are you aware that there is no longer grain and butter mountains? There are actually world shortages

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 2:20am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

WTH? Who said I expected them to continue? If they're losing money hand over fist then why do they deserve to continue? We have €7 billion in exports, and that's great, but that's with what, €2 billion from the EU and €3 billion from the Department Of Agriculture. Care to subtract those numbers and see exactly how well Irish farmers would do on a level playing field?
When the newer EU countries get a bigger share of the CAP we'll see how long our "valuable" farming sector lasts.
A businessman? Doesn't sound all that tough when €5 out of every €7 you get is handed to you for doing nothing...

Do we really have to go through this??

The 2 billion is included in the 3 billion so it's 3 billion total some of which is spent on the civil service, department of ag has to be ran, on research and development such as teagasc and a whole host if other things

Next

ihatetractors · 26-01-2011 2:35am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If you don't think the CAP is to keep food prices (= farmer income) artificially high, then would you mind telling us what it is actually for? This I can't wait to hear...

Lol, the Cap is directly a 'farmer income' support. One that doubles as a rural support, and job support. It injects money to the Agri food sector and other sectors eg, Pharmecutical, Pzifer based in Cork, produce many livestock Vaccinations and other chemicals for animal health.(An example is, if an animal was sick in New Zealand they wouldn't think twice of killing it on the spot. They do that with Jersey bull calves at birth :eek: ) Where as an Irish farmer would call the Vet, snother service being supported indirectly.
Then lets say machinery, Keenan machinery in Carlow are a world leading producer or feeder wagons, bringing their profits back to Ireland. They wouldnt have got going/ been able for RnD if they didnt have regular income from sales. So, move away from the small minded chip on the shoulder way of thinking, open your eyes and use your head for once.

ihatetractors · 26-01-2011 2:49am

I hope mods/ admins etc clean up this thread, i'm sure OP didn't desire a 'Cap policy debate down the back'.

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 2:50am

Dan Solo

In the interest of this thread and as a bit of respect for the OP we should get back on topic, if you wish to discuss irelands agri sector anymore start a new thread, let me know where it is and I will gladly participate

Getting back to SF policy, I think the idea of a wealth tax is nuts. Let's say I own a building worth 2million which had previously been rented out but is now vacant due to recession.

At 1% wealth tax I would be expected to pay 20,000 a year. Now if the property is currently earning zero please tell me how I am supposed to actually pay this tax??

Please also tell me why I should have to pay any more tax on it,after all the money used to buy the building had previously been taxed as income tax, the rental income pre recession was taxed for income tax and when I sell it I will pay capital gains tax on it.

Just how much bloody tax do ye expect this person to pay??

Mike 1972 · 26-01-2011 2:53am

Nozebleed wrote: »

they are the only all ireland party.

No theyre not

There are several other parties organised on both sides of the border. The Greens for example.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they have no candidate around here

So much for being an "all Ireland party".

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 9:03am

Lot's of back seat modding attempts from the vested interest crew I see.
Anyway, you may have noticed that sympathy for property speculators who have €2 million properties has dried up somewhat lately. Also, multiple taxes is hardly anything unique to developers: everybody pays income tax and then VAT for example.
BTW, it's funny how a "wealth tax" is being billed as some sort of Trotskyist policy when Thatcher had virtually the same thing with her Poll Tax.

Tipp Man · 26-01-2011 9:21am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Lot's of back seat modding attempts from the vested interest crew I see.
Anyway, you may have noticed that sympathy for property speculators who have €2 million properties has dried up somewhat lately. Also, multiple taxes is hardly anything unique to developers: everybody pays income tax and then VAT for example.
BTW, it's funny how a "wealth tax" is being billed as some sort of Trotskyist policy when Thatcher had virtually the same thing with her Poll Tax.

Like I have already said if you want to discuss agri start a new thread

And who says self regulation doesn't work:D

Back on topic you have completly ignored my point

Firstly in my example owning the property worth 2m has absolutely nothing to do with being a developer. If you or SF are under some stupid illusion that this would only effect developers then you are very foolish.

Secondly you have made absolutely no reference to my question as to how my example is supposed to pay the tax with zero income, please tell me how you see this tax being paid when it generates no income??

Dan_Solo · 26-01-2011 10:05am

Tipp Man wrote: »

Firstly in my example owning the property worth 2m has absolutely nothing to do with being a developer. If you or SF are under some stupid illusion that this would only effect developers then you are very foolish.

Haha, and if you or Fianna Fail are under the impression that the skint of Ireland cry themselves to sleep over those with €2 million in assets having no income then you are seriously deluded. I haven't checked, but most US states operate a property tax policy whereby principal residences are exempt. If you build a €2 million mansion fine, go live in it.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Secondly you have made absolutely no reference to my question as to how my example is supposed to pay the tax with zero income, please tell me how you see this tax being paid when it generates no income??

Like most taxes, it isn't really the government's business to work out a way for you to pay it. They're not your financial advisors. I think the general idea is though that if you have a lot of wealth and it's idle then you should get rid of it. The rich minority this would affect naturally hate this idea.

Why I won't be voting Sinn Fein

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