The Sub 3 Support Thread

Krusty_Clown · 21-02-2010 10:43pm

MayoRoadRunner wrote: »

Hi Krusty - No chance I would run it at PMP. Feel like I have a few PB's in me now and would like to run the half at full belt. DOn' trust myself so might give it a miss and look for a 10km race that weekend. 9 mile in Calry Sligo next weekend if anyone is looking for something longer than 10km. What marathon are you running? Take it your into your taper now. Good luck with it!

I'm doing Barcelona on Sunday week. I followed the P&D 55 mpw program (second time I've followed the program), but added additional runs to bring the mileage up.

I ran my long runs a lot quicker than 20% slower than pmp, but it wasn't planned, just what felt comfortable on the day and was well within the recommended heart rate percentage, so I didn't reign it in. I did a 22 mile run, to make sure that I got the time on my feet. So not long now, fingers crossed.

--amadeus-- · 22-02-2010 1:45pm

MayoRoadRunner wrote: »

Cheers Amadeus, Yes was thinking that I am risking losing the benefits from running at slower pace during my long runs. Might push it out to 7.30 pace. I am also following P&D. Trying to stick to the 55 - 70 mile plan. Going well apart from this past week but hoping to get back in the saddle from early next week. Which plan are you following? Any tune up races planned? Do you think running a half marathon two weeks before Rotterdam is too risky? Was thinking of doing Omagh half. thanks

I'd be with KC, a couple of weeks before is cutting it fine. You're probably doing the right thing dropping to a 10k.

I'm also on P&D, I'm on the greater than 70 mpw program but I'm doing the opposite to KC and trimming it down to fit. Expecting to be in and around 60 - 70 mpw at peak and 50s for teh bulk of it. My reason for that is that life (2 young kids and being self employed) means I have to miss sessions fairly often so I want to make sure that the sessions I do are quality and the >70mpw program gets me to 50 miles on 5 sessions wheras the 50 - 70 plan would need more runs. And of course if all goes well I get extra mileage in, so it's a win win!

Warm ups I'm looking at a local 10k in April, but that's about it.

Slogger Jogger · 26-02-2010 12:00am

I spent time yesterday evening in the good company of an experienced runner of many's a marathon.. 4 of which ranged between 2:45 and 2:48. He was regaling me with stories of the madness of youth... training at 6 in the morning doing regular 60 min 10 mile runs in training and 20 mile marathon pace runs (and playing for the local GAA team in the afternoon!). He also said that in at least one sub 3 marathon he ran the first few k very very slowly then 'took off'. Thats one way of doing it

Peckham · 26-02-2010 10:04am

Am hoping I may get out for a short run this weekend. Ankle is still not 100%, but physio diagnosis is that it may be okay to test it a little. Plan is to hit the gym tonight for a decent session on the cross trainer, followed by a few minutes on the treadmill to see how the ankle feels. If all goes well, I'll try to get out for one or two 4 or 5 miles runs over the weekend.

All going to plan, then I'll hit back into training next week. My 8 weeks into London will then be two week reverse taper, 4 weeks 50ish mileage, two week taper.

Not sure how fitness has held up in the break from running (have been on the crosstrainer maybe 4 times over the past two weeks), but have kept weight pretty steady (weighed myself on Tuesday and was up 1lb since I weighed myself on the day I injured the ankle). My lenten promise of cutting out chocolate/biscuits as well as processed bread (and the daily lunchtime baguette!) are probably the main factors here.

Is sub-3 still in me? Do I have any right to be posting in this thread? Who knows?

shels4ever · 26-02-2010 10:13am

Peckham wrote: »

Am hoping I may get out for a short run this weekend. Ankle is still not 100%, but physio diagnosis is that it may be okay to test it a little. Plan is to hit the gym tonight for a decent session on the cross trainer, followed by a few minutes on the treadmill to see how the ankle feels. If all goes well, I'll try to get out for one or two 4 or 5 miles runs over the weekend.

All going to plan, then I'll hit back into training next week. My 8 weeks into London will then be two week reverse taper, 4 weeks 50ish mileage, two week taper.

Not sure how fitness has held up in the break from running (have been on the crosstrainer maybe 4 times over the past two weeks), but have kept weight pretty steady (weighed myself on Tuesday and was up 1lb since I weighed myself on the day I injured the ankle). My lenten promise of cutting out chocolate/biscuits as well as processed bread (and the daily lunchtime baguette!) are probably the main factors here.

Is sub-3 still in me? Do I have any right to be posting in this thread? Who knows?

ever try the zero g trainer things? i've read they are great for this type of injury, not sure what places in Ireland have them.

asimonov · 26-02-2010 10:45am

Peckham wrote: »

Is sub-3 still in me? Do I have any right to be posting in this thread? Who knows?

Hi Peckham,
For what it's worth, that's a very similar situation to what I had in October; it's amazing how quickly you'll recover your form. If you could get back up to 18 mile long runs quickly enough to do three of these with one 20 miler it would be good. I did my final 20 miler 10 days before the marathon and tapered from there. I also followed tergat's midweek taper schedule. Chances are you'll arrive on the startline fit and ready to go sub3. Keep the faith.

TFBubendorfer · 26-02-2010 11:10am

shels4ever wrote: »

ever try the zero g trainer things? i've read they are great for this type of injury, not sure what places in Ireland have them.

I'd be very surprised if you could get access to them at all.

shels4ever · 26-02-2010 11:37am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if you could get access to them at all.

Yep have heard there are a couple in the country but not sure where they are . Wouldn't be something that you'd have in your shed

.

Krusty_Clown · 26-02-2010 12:20pm

Peckham wrote: »

Is sub-3 still in me? Do I have any right to be posting in this thread? Who knows?

Most definitely yes. A week or two to build up momentum and confidence again, and these last two weeks will seem like a nightmare (you'll wake up in a sweat, wondering if it really happened at all!). I put an extra week gap in the middle of my last two marathon programs for holidays (during which I covered around 20 miles), and it has served me very well. Just think of it as two weeks holidays, without all the beer and unhealthy lifestyle!

On an unrelated not, I'm going to start all of my training programs a week early, to allow for unforseen circumstances, holidays etc. A handy tickover week if I don't need it.

TheRoadRunner · 26-02-2010 12:29pm

Peckham wrote: »

Is sub-3 still in me?

Yes Yes Yes. 8 weeks is loads of time. Look at how far you came in the weeks you started your program until you got injured. It may take a couple of weeks to get back into the swing of things but those weeks in December/Jan will stand to you.

Just make sure you take it very very handy this weekend, a couple of miles could set you back weeks so easy does it. I'm useless at taking advice myself but just be sensible.

Peckham · 26-02-2010 12:53pm

asimonov wrote: »

If you could get back up to 18 mile long runs quickly enough to do three of these with one 20 miler it would be good.

Long runs are puzzling me a bit. Am not sure exactly how to approach them. Funnily enough I was also thinking 3x18 and 1x20 (2 weeks out from race), but not sure where or whether to introduce PMP. Will all depend on how I feel.

Am also considering dropping planned warm-up race (i.e. Larne Half Marathon), but that will mean that when I stand on the startline for London, it'll be my first race since St Stephen's Day (and that was only a 4k race).

Any thoughts?

asimonov · 26-02-2010 1:50pm

Peckham wrote: »

Long runs are puzzling me a bit. Am not sure exactly how to approach them. Funnily enough I was also thinking 3x18 and 1x20 (2 weeks out from race), but not sure where or whether to introduce PMP. Will all depend on how I feel.

Am also considering dropping planned warm-up race (i.e. Larne Half Marathon), but that will mean that when I stand on the startline for London, it'll be my first race since St Stephen's Day (and that was only a 4k race).

Any thoughts?

I can only really extrapolate from my circumstance, which were a little different to yours because i was nursing an overuse injury and not an impact one like yours and you have an extra 2 weeks

.

My thoughts at the time were that with limited weeks available every workout had to count (produce benefit) and quick recovery was essential so i could do the next session properly. In terms of optimising benefit, i figured i'd get greater return on threshold / tempo runs and long steady than marathon pace.

So i ran my 4 long runs at steady pace (7:30ish) except for the last 20 miler where i just about hit marathon pace for the last couple of miles.
I did a mid-week session with a slow / steady tempo pace (6:40 - 6:30) but broken up into 2 / 3 mile sections, so i wasn't really hammering myself.

The only proper marathon pace workout i did was the 5/4/3/2/1 miles with recovery in between three days before my last long run. I ran one cross country race as well.

On the race thing, i think it's important, if only to get mentally in the right place and remember what it feels like to race again. But i think a half marathon (85ishmin at fast tempo pace) is hard going and i'd worry about the recovery time you'd need to give it after. Is there a lower key race you could run that would get you in the zone but which you could bounce back from more quickly? 5 mile / 10k would be good maybe.

Like roadrunner says, the december / january training will really stand to you and as long as you can resist the temptation to flog yourself on the roads between now and the marathon, it could even work out better than 18 weeks of straight training, because you'll have had a chance to build strength before the final assault!

Peckham · 26-02-2010 2:54pm

asimonov wrote: »

The only proper marathon pace workout i did was the 5/4/3/2/1 miles with recovery in between three days before my last long run.

Explain this session to me. It looks like 5 miles at PMP, few mins recovery, 4 miles at PMP, few mins recovery etc. etc. But that would add up to circa. 18-20 mile session?

asimonov wrote: »

On the race thing, i think it's important, if only to get mentally in the right place and remember what it feels like to race again.

I think you're right. Might go looking for a 10k that I can slot in.

asimonov · 26-02-2010 4:56pm

Peckham wrote: »

Explain this session to me. It looks like 5 miles at PMP, few mins recovery, 4 miles at PMP, few mins recovery etc. etc. But that would add up to circa. 18-20 mile session?

I think you're right. Might go looking for a 10k that I can slot in.

That's it exactly...
5 miles at pmp 2' recovery
4 miles at pmp 2' recovery
3 miles at pmp 2' recovery
2 miles at pmp 2' recovery
1 miles
= 15 miles.

Now, I did out-and-backs for each one and did rest recovery with a drink etc so it didn't seem too bad. I think tergat said you can drop the 5 mile if you have a doubt.

TheRoadRunner · 26-02-2010 8:14pm

Peckham wrote: »

Am also considering dropping planned warm-up race (i.e. Larne Half Marathon), but that will mean that when I stand on the startline for London, it'll be my first race since St Stephen's Day (and that was only a 4k race).

Any thoughts?

I've done this in the past. In fact I probably ran my best marathon with no warm up races. Might be better psychologically to get an 18 in instead of a half marathon although a half wouldn't do any harm either. Call it in a couple of weeks.

--amadeus-- · 26-02-2010 10:24pm

Peckham wrote: »

Long runs are puzzling me a bit. Am not sure exactly how to approach them. Funnily enough I was also thinking 3x18 and 1x20 (2 weeks out from race), but not sure where or whether to introduce PMP. Will all depend on how I feel.

Am also considering dropping planned warm-up race (i.e. Larne Half Marathon), but that will mean that when I stand on the startline for London, it'll be my first race since St Stephen's Day (and that was only a 4k race).

Any thoughts?

In terms of warm up races I have never had a warm up race before any of my autumn marathons and it's been fine. It's probably better to have them but it's not like you haven't raced or run a marathon before.

And 8 weeks is plenty of time - you can go from a standing start to a mara in 12 weeks and you built a great base.

Peckham · 27-02-2010 12:46am

Thanks for all the positivity.....and it must be rubbing off. Rather than going to the gym for a crosstrainer session this evening, I went out for a very short and relaxed 2.25 mile run. All felt well with the ankle, bar a little tenderness from the shoes. If all still feels well tomorrow will head out for 4 miles. Progress.

Might be even time to start about thinking about designing a new training plan!

Krusty_Clown · 27-02-2010 10:04am

Peckham wrote: »

Might be even time to start about thinking about designing a new training plan!

Hopefully one which avoids hump-back bridges and loose soil?

Peckham · 27-02-2010 11:55am

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hopefully one which avoids hump-back bridges and loose soil?

There's a clear, straight, smooth one mile stretch of pavement near my house. Am considering doing every run as an out and back along this stretch!

--amadeus-- · 06-03-2010 6:17pm

Great Limerick Run is in May, Cork is in June.

I was going to do the 10k with MrsA but circs have changed, so I could:

- race the 10k
- race the half (début at the distance)
- Offer to pace the 4 hr group

The half is pretty pricey but I've never done one and the timings are right. It would give a good fitness indicator. But a nice long slow and supported run would be good too. No great advantage to racing the 10k I wouldn't have thought.

So which would be better - race teh half or pace the full?

Peckham · 06-03-2010 6:31pm

Definitely race the half. Perfect fitness indicator, and good race prep....plus a guaranteed PB!

4 weeks and 2 days out from a PB attempt is too close to be running another marathon. You're not in the school of thought of 26 mile training runs, which is what this would be.

Sosa · 06-03-2010 9:23pm

Without a doubt race the half.
That was another one of my mistakes in prep for Dubiln,this year i am doing the wexford half 5 weeks before Cork.

theboyblunder · 07-03-2010 3:25pm

I would agree - racing the half fits with most plans I have read.

Makes particular sense if its your debut!

Peckham · 10-03-2010 9:57am

With my recent injury woe behind me, I'm looking at how to structure the remaining 4 weeks of quality training before London (4 weeks starting next week, followed by a 2 week taper). Am looking at 50-55 miles per week for those 4 weeks, and have a good idea about what to do regarding long runs.

However, I'm a bit stumped as to what to do regarding speedwork. Before my injury all of my speedwork was tempo runs (maybe 3 or 4 sessions in total up to 6 miles). I follow the P&D structure of training, which would have me doing 1,000 and 1,200 metre intervals in the final weeks....however, that's assuming you've built up to them from 400 metre and 600 metre repeats earlier in the plan (which would have happened during the weeks that I was off injured).

Now the question I have is - Should I throw myself into the longer intervals? I think I need to, as it's closer to being specific training, and likely to give me a better race benefit than 600/800 metre intervals.

My thinking in relation to speedwork during the four weeks is as follows:
- Week 1: Do the often talked Tergat 4-3-2-1 at PMP during my 18 mile long run
- Week 2: Midweek intervals - 1,200 metres. Not sure how many repeats.
- Week 3: Do a 5-4-3-2-1 PMP session during my 18 mile long run
- Week 4: Midweek intervals - 1,600 metres. Not sure how many repeats.

Any wise thoughts?

Krusty_Clown · 10-03-2010 11:17am

No wise thoughts, but just from recent experience, I'd be cautious of jumping in on the 1200m and 1600m intervals without having done some relevant ground-work first (given that the injury is ankle related). Assuming that you can still manage the 5x600m pretty comfortably, could you loosely follow the P&D plan and do something like (one per week @5k pace):
1 - 5x600
2 - 4x1000
3 - 4x1200
4 - 5x600
5 - 3x1600
6 - <marathon week>

This is pretty close to the 12 week program, except without a 5x600m session between week 2 and 3. Needless to say my experience lies only in P&D so haven't tried any of the other suggested sessions.

Gringo78 · 10-03-2010 11:52am

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

No wise thoughts, but just from recent experience, I'd be cautious of jumping in on the 1200m and 1600m intervals without having done some relevant ground-work first (given that the injury is ankle related).

One of the benefits of doing the shorter intervals first is that since the interval is shorter, if you go out too fast, or try to do the interval too fast, its less time at the 'bad' pace before you realise it and correct it and readjust the pace slower for the next interval. With 1600m intervals, if you try the interval too fast, your running form will degrade after 800m and you'll spend the last 800m in a raggedy type run trying to stay on pace and this can increase the risk of injury.

However, since time is a real constraint and you feel you can't waste a week doing shorter intervals, here's a session I used to do which may be good to start off on:

2 miles at 10k pace - 5min recovery jog
2x1600m at 5k pace - 3min jog recovery each rep
2x800m at slightly faster than 5k pace - 3min jog recovery each rep

Krusty_Clown · 10-03-2010 12:19pm

Gringo78 wrote: »

2 miles at 10k pace - 5min recovery jog
2x1600m at 5k pace - 3min jog recovery each rep
2x800m at slightly faster than 5k pace - 3min jog recovery each rep

Are these different sessions, or all part of the same session? Looks tough (and doesn't have the shorter intervals that you mentioned above). Might give this a go over the next few weeks.

tergat · 10-03-2010 1:12pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Great Limerick Run is in May, Cork is in June.

I was going to do the 10k with MrsA but circs have changed, so I could:

- race the 10k
- race the half (début at the distance)
- Offer to pace the 4 hr group

The half is pretty pricey but I've never done one and the timings are right. It would give a good fitness indicator. But a nice long slow and supported run would be good too. No great advantage to racing the 10k I wouldn't have thought.

So which would be better - race teh half or pace the full?

amadeus,

You should race the HM as this will give you a guide as to what pace you should run in Cork. You cant beat having a HM done 4-5 weeks before a full Marathon as it tells you exactly what you are capable of for the full thing.

Tergat

Gringo78 · 10-03-2010 1:23pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are these different sessions, or all part of the same session? Looks tough (and doesn't have the shorter intervals that you mentioned above). Might give this a go over the next few weeks.

Same session.....and no, doesn't have the shorter intervals. But the 2 miles first off means you shouldn't go out too fast (i.e 10k pace is 15sec a mile slower than 5k pace for you or Peckham) so you'll know already if you're pacing too fast when you try to ramp it up for the mile reps and then the 800m reps. You're well warmed up aswell by the time you try to hit 5k pace I think.

I myself am not doing any intervals at much faster than 10k pace and am definetly not hitting 5km pace.

tergat · 10-03-2010 1:26pm

Peckham wrote: »

With my recent injury woe behind me, I'm looking at how to structure the remaining 4 weeks of quality training before London (4 weeks starting next week, followed by a 2 week taper). Am looking at 50-55 miles per week for those 4 weeks, and have a good idea about what to do regarding long runs.

However, I'm a bit stumped as to what to do regarding speedwork. Before my injury all of my speedwork was tempo runs (maybe 3 or 4 sessions in total up to 6 miles). I follow the P&D structure of training, which would have me doing 1,000 and 1,200 metre intervals in the final weeks....however, that's assuming you've built up to them from 400 metre and 600 metre repeats earlier in the plan (which would have happened during the weeks that I was off injured).

Now the question I have is - Should I throw myself into the longer intervals? I think I need to, as it's closer to being specific training, and likely to give me a better race benefit than 600/800 metre intervals.

My thinking in relation to speedwork during the four weeks is as follows:
- Week 1: Do the often talked Tergat 4-3-2-1 at PMP during my 18 mile long run
- Week 2: Midweek intervals - 1,200 metres. Not sure how many repeats.
- Week 3: Do a 5-4-3-2-1 PMP session during my 18 mile long run
- Week 4: Midweek intervals - 1,600 metres. Not sure how many repeats.

Any wise thoughts?

Peckham,

Over the next two weeks get in a mid week 'Long workout' e.g. 12-14 miles with 4*2 miles @ Marathon pace included in it.

Another workout could be:

1 mile easy, 5,4,3,2,1 mile at Marathon Pace, rest 2 minutes between each, 1 mile easy

OR

2-3 miles easy, 6*1 Mile @ HM Pace jog 2 mins rec, 2-3 miles easy

OR

2 miles easy, 3*5km @ Marathon Pace jog 2-3 mins rec, 2 miles easy

These workouts are specific to the Marathon and will help you a lot come 20 miles. Also keep your Long run at weekend and run very easy in between. So you have two key days for week. Have a big focus on recovery after and between workout days.

In the last three weeks, I suggest you do one mid-week workout that is a bit more speedy than your long run. The three key workouts I recommend in order of succession are as follows:

1) warm up 1-2 miles, run 4,3,2,1 mile at Marathon Pace (be realistic), rest 2-3 minutes between each, warm-down 1-2 miles

2) warm up 1-2 miles, run 5-6 x 1 mile at Lactate Threshold Pace, jog 1-2 minutes between each, warm-down 1-2 miles

3) warm up 1-2 miles, run 2 x 1 mile at 10k pace, jog 2 minutes between, 1-2 miles warm down

Tergat

The Sub 3 Support Thread

Comments