Documenting Ireland's cycle lanes

petethedrummer · 24-09-2009 3:09pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Because of this thread, I emailed an Irish friend of mine who lives in Denmark to ask him what he thought and he said:

In answer to your friends' experience, I was on holiday, so I never really used them at peak times or with any real urgency to get anywhere, so maybe living there is a different experience. Also does he live in Copenhagen or in another town? It might be a different experience in smaller towns. Copenhagen definitely had the best infrastructure of any urban area we visited. But still the courteous behaviour was evident in all towns.

Also I'm still in the broadly opposed to cycle lane gang, despite having been in Copenhagen. I'm for dedicated cycle routes through the country side and cites. But I prefer the 'shared use' approach to road design in the built up areas.

tomasrojo · 24-09-2009 3:13pm

He lives in Aarhus. I think he cycles in Copenhagen too though.

Lumen · 24-09-2009 3:16pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

It is, of course, illegal to pass on the inside here, so our facilities are completely inconsistent with the law (as well as with common sense, road engineering and whatever you're having yourself).

Get rid of all the on-road cycle lanes, remove mandatory use laws and make passing on the right mandatory for all road users.

I'd argue that would be be safer, cheaper and lead to better traffic flows than the current arrangements.

Then the pedestrians-on-bicycles (by which I mean, with no disrespect, cyclists who think like wheeled pedestrians and don't mind safely sharing their facilities e.g. dismounted ped crossings) can use off-road cycle tracks where they exist, and the motorcyclists-on-bicycles (i.e. cyclists who are capable of cycling at speed with a bit of cop-on) can share the roads with other vehicles according to the same rules - filtering, yielding, observing traffic lights etc.

To make the distinction between the two classes of cyclist easy for everyone to understand, the POBs can use flat bars and the MOBs can ride drops.

tomasrojo · 24-09-2009 3:41pm

Lumen wrote: »

Get rid of all the on-road cycle lanes, remove mandatory use laws and make passing on the right mandatory for all road users.

I'd argue that would be be safer, cheaper and lead to better traffic flows than the current arrangements.

Mandatory laws really shouldn't apply anywhere. As someone said, more or less, above, if the facilities are great, why do you need to compel people to use them? And if they're rubbish, you've no right to compel people to use them.

Good point about cheapness too. Crap facilities, while cheaper than good facilities, still cost a fair amount of money. Roads without facilities but with a good safety record should be left as they are.

BostonB · 24-09-2009 4:57pm

Lumen wrote: »

Get rid of all the on-road cycle lanes, remove mandatory use laws and make passing on the right mandatory for all road users.

I'd argue that would be be safer, cheaper and lead to better traffic flows than the current arrangements.....

What would happen is they'd put them on the pavement, where you'd have to stop at every junction because you don't have piority. Or people just wouldn't use them. So their be no point. Theres a fair few of those around. Completely pointless.

Cycle lanes do seem to keep motorists over a bit in heavy traffic. So theres a clear path to cycle through heavy traffic. Where there is none motorist tend to use up the full width as the cars stagger to see around each other, or cram two cars side by side in a space meant for one. Meaning you can't pass at all. Unless you cross the center white lane and cycle into oncomming traffic. Which is fine sometimes, but sometimes it itsn't.

Of course a manatory cycle lane that not exculsive to cycles is equally pointless. As often cars just ignore them.

BostonB · 24-09-2009 4:58pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Mandatory laws really shouldn't apply anywhere. As someone said, more or less, above, if the facilities are great, why do you need to compel people to use them? And if they're rubbish, you've no right to compel people to use them. ...

+1

markpb · 24-09-2009 5:54pm

markpb wrote: »

The junction to the new Blackthorn Drive extension has created the single most dangerous and stupid pinch point I've ever seen and completely undoes all the good that the rest of the lane offers. The first two times I used it, I was sure I had done something wrong because I ended up in the pedestrian island and (almost) in the side of a car. I'll try to grab photos this week.

I contacted DLRCC about this and got a reply relatively quickly:

The current layout provides a number of options for cyclists who travel from the city direction towards the Beacon Hospital end of Drummartin Link Road. They have the option of using the off road cycle track. When they approach the junction they can either continue onto Benildus Avenue or use the crossing points to safely negotiate the junction. More confident cyclists have the option of leaving the off-road cycle track and using the advanced stop line for cyclist at the junction with Benildus Avenue. This is a more dangerous manoeuvre and should only be attempted by the most confident cyclists.

In an ideal situation the cyclist pedestrian and motor vehicle would all have sufficient space to make whichever manoeuvre they desired with minimum delay. However in reality this does not happen and a compromise often has to be made in some aspects of a design to cater for each mode of transport. Although using the off-road cycle track and the signalised crossing points at this junction would slow the journey time for cyclists it does provide a safe way to negotiate the junction.

As this junction is newly built a Stage 3 Audit will be carried out of the junction. This is carried out by an independent consultant. I will forward your comments to them when they have been appointed for their consideration.

tomasrojo · 24-09-2009 5:58pm

Is it this junction they're referring to?

Given that it's a segregated lane, how is the cyclist supposed to leave the off-road cycle track before the junction?

Given the mandatory-use legislation, the cyclist is also surely forbidden to leave the off-road cycle track.

markpb · 24-09-2009 6:00pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Is it this junction they're referring to?[/IMG]

Given that it's a segregated lane, how is the cyclist supposed to leave the off-road cycle track before the junction?

Give the mandatory-use legislation, the cyclist is also surely forbidden to leave the off-road cycle track.

Yep, that's the one. I pointed that fact out to them and also that their solution to cross using the island would be illegal since it's designated as a footpath and not a cycle track.

tomasrojo · 24-09-2009 6:16pm

They seem to concur with Lumen's suggestion above that inexperienced or nervous cyclists can use facilities and yield at all junctions, while confident cyclists can use the road. Unfortunately, once they add the facility and stick a Cycle Track sign on it, it's mandatory.

So even if our mind-reading skills allowed us to figure out that they are catering for two classes of cyclists, both their design and the current law prevent us from following their (heavily veiled) intentions.

Blowfish · 24-09-2009 6:28pm

Wait...so technically there isn't even a legal way to cycle through the junction? o.0

Quite bizarre, especially as if there were no cycle 'facilities' there at all, it would be quite easy to legally cycle through it.

tomasrojo · 24-09-2009 6:37pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Wait...so technically there isn't even a legal way to cycle through the junction? o.0

Quite bizarre, especially as if there were no cycle 'facilities' there at all, it would be quite easy to legally cycle through it.

No Blowfish, you're quite wrong. Only the most confident cyclists are able to change lane.
</sarcasm>

markpb · 25-09-2009 9:24am

Blowfish wrote: »

Wait...so technically there isn't even a legal way to cycle through the junction? o.0

One last update to this:

Just to clarify cyclists using these crossing points would have to dismount to cross the junction as they are not toucan crossings. It will extend the journey time but does provide a safe route through the junction.

So the options are get off and walk or drop off the footpath into traffic and put yourself into a pinch point. It'll be interesting to see what the safety audit says.

tomasrojo · 25-09-2009 9:28am

markpb wrote: »

One last update to this:

So the options are get off and walk or drop off the footpath into traffic and put yourself into a pinch point. It'll be interesting to see what the safety audit says.

Indeed, why not wheel your bike from your front door to your destination? It does extend the journey time, but at least you'll never have to perform the notorious "lane change" manoeuvre.

cyclopath2001 · 25-09-2009 6:20pm

markpb wrote: »

Yep, that's the one. I pointed that fact out to them and also that their solution to cross using the island would be illegal since it's designated as a footpath and not a cycle track.

There's one technicality that might help - you're allowed cross a footpath in your vehicle (e.g. bicycle) to reach a roadway, although you must give way to pedestrians when doing so.

But really, that 'facility' should be on-road.

monument · 26-09-2009 1:38am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Incidentally, has anyone here cycled in Copenhagen? Much is made of Copenhagen these days as the cycling capital of the world, but how do people who haven't grown up with those facilities find them? And does Denmark have a mandatory cycle-facility law like here?

I have, it's great.

Large amounts of cycle traffic at a few spots at rush hour times was my only complaint, but even that was limited.

mockler007 · 26-09-2009 3:15am

mockler007 · 26-09-2009 3:26am

mockler007 · 26-09-2009 3:32am

petethedrummer · 26-09-2009 11:29am

Mockler007 are they even in Ireland/Dublin?

Blowfish · 26-09-2009 11:53am

petethedrummer wrote: »

Mockler007 are they even in Ireland/Dublin?

Nope, they are UK ones taken from facility of the month.

markpb · 29-09-2009 11:01am

I give up!

DLRCoCo wrote:

The safety audit has already been carried out. I am not able to release a copy of it to you but I can paraphrase the findings. The audit highlighted the difficulty cyclists heading towards the Beacon along Drummartin Link Road may have travelling straight thought this junction.

The council responded by stating that the proposed layout requires cyclists to stop and look behind them before crossing the left turn lane. A more flowing alignment would lead to cyclists potentially coming into conflict with high speed traffic on the approach to the left turn into the new road. The council believed that the current alignment is more appropriate.

This was accepted by the audit team and they requested that the area continue to be monitored.

tomasrojo · 29-09-2009 11:03am

I'd a feeling that that would be the result.

Please, local authorities, STOP BUILDING CYCLE FACILITIES. You have no idea what you're doing and you just make things worse.

tomasrojo · 29-09-2009 11:04am

This also makes clear that it is the intended effect of facilities that cyclists give way at every single junction. I guess that clears that up.

tomasrojo · 29-09-2009 11:10am

You know, if they stopped building cycle facilities, I could recreate the same levels of safety (and inconvenience) by merely pulling over to the side of the road at every juction, lifting my bike up on the sidewalk and crossing as a pedestrian.

Or, as said above, I could wheel my bike from my front door to my destination. Why not? I'm going to have to dismount at every junction by 2015 anyway, if they build any more facilities to this standard.

markpb · 29-09-2009 11:18am

I sent a bit of a snotty email telling them what you guys have just posted, said it wasn't obvious that they wanted cyclists to stop and that it would be preferable not to build segregated cycle lanes if it meant we lost priority at junctions. I expect to hear absolutely nothing back in future.

Edit: I also asked why this junction was different to the others and was told "I believe that the proximity of the Luas bridge to this junction had a big impact on the design."

monument · 30-09-2009 12:24am

markpb wrote: »

I give up!

I'll continue then.

I'll send them a Freedom of Information request for said document.

monument · 30-09-2009 12:36am

Oh, and I also recently got a snap of this junction http://www.flickr.com/photos/cianginty/3901566929/in/pool-dublincyclelanes

I'm not out that way too often and thought... 'oh, I'll try the cycle lane to see what it's like' and then came across what has to be only of the poorest junction designs I've seen, and I've seen a lot of Dublin's cycle tracks.

tomasrojo · 30-09-2009 10:51am

I think we may have a winner alright.

Should we have a worst cycle facility in Ireland thread? Only pictures?

Doctor Bob · 30-09-2009 12:28pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Should we have a worst cycle facility in Ireland thread? Only pictures?

Maybe we could turn it into a quiz?

picture.php?albumid=775&pictureid=3948

Documenting Ireland's cycle lanes

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