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LISBON - What way will Clare vote this time?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Haha :D

    Yeah, but thats actually the one thing I do not believe is going to happen... You are on about Planet X are you not?

    OK, build the big zapper yokima bus thing... but stop building shhite like cruise missles, cluster munitions, etc. An utter waste... the brains that went into making them, if only they had been used to develop solutions for real problems in the world, like water shortages, famine, etc

    We cant use a need for "defence" as a justification to keep strenghtening the military... we are not stone age men anymore, we can control ourselves now... this whole notion that war is human nature is a myth

    So a military now, serves corporations, as was the case with Iraq... the most obvious use of the military for corporate profit

    Nah Planet X is just merely going to collide and wipe us out just like it did away with the dinosaurs. The green guys are real and they ARE coming!

    What about the military's role in places like Darfur?Also, we've got alot of inventions to thank the military for the biro being one:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Do we really need another thread to hear about the OPs anti-Lisbon stance ? Surely one is enough...

    As a poster on that other thread suggested, I think this is better discussed on the Politics forum.

    I've been asking from the start to have this moved, although I'm not going to sit here and let the liars twins make it up as they go along.
    It is not.

    The the EU Political forum is run by biased moderators that favour the Lisbon treaty and the thread would not last pi**ing time before either he gets infracted or the thread gets locked.

    I rarely bother with the EU Political forum.

    It is up to the mods to merge this thread if they feel its necessary.

    So it's not just our politicians, our unions, our labour organisations, our media, our business organisations, our academics and our economists that are biased against you, it's also the Mods of the EU forum. You poor oppressed boy it's almost like you're completely wrong or something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    meglome wrote: »
    I've been asking from the start to have this moved, although I'm not going to sit here and let the liars twins make it up as they go along.

    You obviously weren't here for the separate thread that was created in the name of Voting No.:)

    Anyways, Meglome, why do you we should keep the EU expanding military budgets.
    I covered green aliens defense,
    You got any ideas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Thats what the media like us to believe.I have been canvassed around Dublin Limerick and Clare over the last few weeks particularly concentrating on factory, farmers and council workers. All I can say is that the large majority don't want the treaty. Most are pissed off with the Government, they are fed up with tax payers money used to shove Lisbon propaganda down their troths. Most believe if they reject Lisbon the Government will fall which makes a lot sense. I passed through many housing estates in Limerick, Clare and even Dublin where all the YES posters were removed. In Moyross and Thormond areas just a few Coir and Sinn Fein posters remained.

    Ah Run_to_the_hills we're all pissed off with the government but I fail to see how giving the finger to the EU will fix that. We are legally obliged to have these referendums and the government has to fund the independent referendum commission. And since the EU has given us 41 billion Euro over the years I'd imagine the handful of referendums we've had are covered.

    If people knew how boring this treaty really is and all the sensationalist nonsense you're making up isn't in it, they'd be wondering what all the fuss is about.
    If you were to do the same as me and call around to the same people you would be more than likely politely told to fu*ck off. To the average working man the Yes crowd would be more at home with wealthy business men, fat cats. property developers, politicians and white collar workers.
    I bet you haven't even read it, It is full of EU Corruption, on how it has trampled all over democracy. The paper has had a huge success feedback. on line hits have been huge, Not alone that is that it has got people to think and look further into EU lies and deception.

    The problem with a lot of No campaigners is they always try to make it about 'us' and 'them'. If the country is in trouble we all suffer and blaming the EU for things we did ourselves is only likely to make things worse. We voted in a ****e government, repeatedly. We ****ed up our economy and hopefully the EU will save our stupid asses.

    I've read the treaty and it's getting very boring listening to your lying. And worse you're actively spreading those lies.
    At least this material is not funded by Taxpayers money and backed by the EU like the rag pushed through our letter boxes. I thought I was the only one that saw these subliminal messages in the IRC and Dept of Foreign Affairs guide, but was surprised at the amount of people that were also aware of it. People are sick of it at this stage and want to know the truth.

    The government has to fund the independent referendum commission, who the hell else could fund them? You don't like it because they don't agree with you. The rest is just nutty.
    I wouldn't wipe my arse with the self ammending Lisbon Treaty, it's so full of holes my finger would push straight through it.

    Just show me the bit of the treaty that makes it self amending? And as always I won't wait as you can't.
    On a seperate but similar note the Globalist Sarkozy is putting the gun to the head on the Chez president Klaus to sign Lisbon Treaty.
    ]

    Why would I give a ****e what this French idiot has to say? He can believe the world is flat if he wants, I don't care. The idea that the little short arse could bully anyone into anything is really funny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Malty_T wrote: »
    You obviously weren't here for the separate thread that was created in the name of Voting No.:)

    I missed that sorry. Seems to happen a lot on boards.ie at the moment. It's almost like something dodgy is going on.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    Anyways, Meglome, why do you we should keep the EU expanding military budgets.
    I covered green aliens defense,
    You got any ideas?

    Every single EU country has an army and the majority are also members of NATO. One of the major things the European defence agency is for is saving money and cutting back on duplication. I'm not a fan of spending on the military but it has always happened and will continue to do so Lisbon or not.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭drunken_munky52


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Nah Planet X is just merely going to collide and wipe us out just like it did away with the dinosaurs. The green guys are real and they ARE coming!

    What about the military's role in places like Darfur?Also, we've got alot of inventions to thank the military for the biro being one:)

    The problems in Darfur are what need to be addressed at the root cause, band aiding the situation with friendly UN peacekeepers is not really getting to the root cause, altough I agree that peacekeepers are needed on a short term basis while the root problems are addressed..... still, having a UN force in Darfur does not mean countries need to spend billions developing long range air ordanances and other types of heavy weaponary

    Technological advancement can occur in the absence of a military world. Take the A-Bomb which gave dawn to the Nuclear power age... if the 1000s of scientists had developed atomic energy harnessing with the goal of producing electricity, that would hae been a way more noble goal then the goal of flattening an entire city in one strike... we as humans just need to get our priorities right and there is no stopping what we can accomplish...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭drunken_munky52


    meglome wrote: »
    Every single EU country has an army and the majority are also members of NATO. One of the major things the European defence agency is for is saving money and cutting back on duplication. I'm not a fan of spending on the military but it has always happened and will continue to do so Lisbon or not.

    NATO should be consigned to history just like the USSR was...

    The main problem with the military is that it got too powerful during the cold war, and now its like a greedy dog who will bite your hand off if you try to take his food away.

    So it needs to be tackled from the top to bottom, starting with not giving it any more power than it already has, i.e. rejecting Lisbon (those hawks will hate us Irish, better to be admired by the doves tough)

    Second step, we need to stop as many people as possible from joining the military in the first place. This fighting for freedom and honour BS has so many young men hyponotised, when at the end of the day, they work for a money making business, just like you and me


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    NATO should be consigned to history just like the USSR was...

    The main problem with the military is that it got too powerful during the cold war, and now its like a greedy dog who will bite your hand off if you try to take his food away.

    So it needs to be tackled from the top to bottom, starting with not giving it any more power than it already has, i.e. rejecting Lisbon (those hawks will hate us Irish, better to be admired by the doves tough)

    Second step, we need to stop as many people as possible from joining the military in the first place. This fighting for freedom and honour BS has so many young men hyponotised, when at the end of the day, they work for a money making business, just like you and me

    I have no issue with looking to minimise military spending, I support that. The problem, as I see it, is you're taking one peice of the Lisbon treaty which encourages military co-operation and saying that will automatically lead to increased military spending whereas one of the main aims is to save money. The whole budget of the EDA is only 30 million Euro for 2009. There are lots of good reasons to vote Yes to Lisbon and the European Defence agency makes little practical difference as every EU country already has an army and Lisbon won't change that. So let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Is mise le key


    Here is a link to a very informative paper that actually references the articles in the treaty of major concern to the No side which transparently then backs up all the issues we are being told is nonsense from the Yes side such Militarisation, Taxation & the loss of direct power in each countrys internal affairs by its own government.....if you are unsure of what to vote read this paper & make an informed decision on you & your childrens future because one thing is certain if this is passed into being there will be no way back to where we are now so you should be sure before Oct. 2nd...

    http://www.sovereignindependent.com/downloads.php

    If any of you have Bebo or Facebook pages & already rightly beleive that this is the worst possible thing that can happen to our country spread the content of this post, this paper & mediafire link which is the same as the PDF attached.......download the PDF & E-Mail it also to friend's & encourage them to do the same......spread the information as far as possible on the net to friends & users & to personal E-Mails for a NO!

    http://www.mediafire.com/?vgmmjxq3xy2


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭REPSOC1916


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Not even original enough to come up with new lies.

    They were right on the money about Nice too weren't they?



    http://www.sinnfein.org/releases/01/nicemanifesto.html

    My dad is friends with a few Defence Forces Officers. One of them told him that all the necessary bureaucratic and logistical changes had been made to the IDF's structure in order to assimilate into the European Army. Frankly we're moving closer into a United Stated of Europe.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    REPSOC1916 wrote: »
    My dad is friends with a few Defence Forces Officers. One of them told him that all the necessary bureaucratic and logistical changes had been made to the IDF's structure in order to assimilate into the European Army. Frankly we're moving closer into a United Stated of Europe.
    I was chatting to an Army medic based in the Curragh, she said most of the defense forces don't want Lisbon because they oppose large scale EU battlegroups.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    REPSOC1916 wrote: »
    My dad is friends with a few Defence Forces Officers. One of them told him that all the necessary bureaucratic and logistical changes had been made to the IDF's structure in order to assimilate into the European Army. Frankly we're moving closer into a United Stated of Europe.

    The problem with that statement is one there is no European Army, and they will not be after Lisbon either. Secondly the friend of a anonymous internets posters dad is not a very reliable source. Any actual sources? (For either the proposed changes or a evidence of the existence european army)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Is mise le key


    marco_polo wrote: »
    The problem with that statement is one there is no European Army, and they will not be after Lisbon either. Secondly the friend of a anonymous internets posters dad is not a very reliable source. Any actual sources? (For either the proposed changes or a evidence of the existence european army)

    Treaty of Lisbon

    Title 1 , Article 2A section 4,
    states:

    “The union shall have
    competence to define and
    implement a common foreign
    and security policy, including
    the progressive framing of a
    common defence policy”.


    In my book a common european defence policy is as good as a common european military force.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Here is a link to a very informative paper that actually references the articles in the treaty of major concern to the No side which transparently then backs up all the issues we are being told is nonsense from the Yes side such Militarisation, Taxation & the loss of direct power in each countrys internal affairs by its own government.....if you are unsure of what to vote read this paper & make an informed decision on you & your childrens future because one thing is certain if this is passed into being there will be no way back to where we are now so you should be sure before Oct. 2nd...

    http://www.sovereignindependent.com/downloads.php

    If any of you have Bebo or Facebook pages & already rightly beleive that this is the worst possible thing that can happen to our country spread the content of this post, this paper & mediafire link which is the same as the PDF attached.......download the PDF & E-Mail it also to friend's & encourage them to do the same......spread the information as far as possible on the net to friends & users & to personal E-Mails for a NO!

    http://www.mediafire.com/?vgmmjxq3xy2

    It is a pity that it relies entirely on Anthony Coughlans long debunked 13 reasons to vote no.

    Why on earth would you trust the opinions of a man who doesn't even know the difference between a direct and an indirect taxation?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Is mise le key


    marco_polo wrote: »
    It is a pity that it relies entirely on Anthony Coughlans long debunked 13 reasons to vote no.

    Why on earth would you trust the opinions of a man who doesn't even know the difference between a direct and an indirect taxation?

    I have not solely relied on this paper to come to a conclusion that all is not what it appears with the european union.....however there are various direct references to the treaty within this paper & quotations which have been independantly verified that cannot be ignored, if you honestly beleive that the European Union is not insidious in nature & is really striving to make the common good of all its citizens top of its agenda you are naive to say the least. Yes europe is good for business but thats exactly it, its good for buisnesses not the people who work in the businesses. The recent "rescue" of our banks is a glimpse of how buisness before people is the order of the day. We cannot allow our banks to fail but we can reduce child benefit & reduce health care budgets etc. etc. etc.

    Europe ever closer means Buisness before people & so it ever has been driven since the foudation of capatalism.....but it is not even a true reflection of capatalism, the europe they want is a meger of Capatalism & Socialism for the wealthy elite. We pay to make the system work for the wealthy. Vote whatever way you want but my head aint in the clouds yours is.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    I have not solely relied on this paper to come to a conclusion that all is not what it appears with the european union.....however there are various direct references to the treaty within this paper & quotations which have been independantly verified that cannot be ignored, if you honestly beleive that the European Union is not insidious in nature & is really striving to make the common good of all its citizens top of its agenda you are naive to say the least. Yes europe is good for business but thats exactly it, its good for buisnesses not the people who work in the businesses. The recent "rescue" of our banks is a glimpse of how buisness before people is the order of the day. We cannot allow our banks to fail but we can reduce child benefit & reduce health care budgets etc. etc. etc.

    Europe ever closer means Buisness before people & so it ever has been driven since the foudation of capatalism.....but it is not even a true reflection of capatalism, the europe they want is a meger of Capatalism & Socialism for the wealthy elite. We pay to make the system work for the wealthy. Vote whatever way you want but my head aint in the clouds yours is.

    There are references to the treaty, that doe not mean that the interpretations are not complete fabrications.

    In answer to the bolded bit :confused:

    Child benifit, heath budgets, NAMA etc -> Irish Government.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Treaty of Lisbon

    Title 1 , Article 2A section 4,
    states:

    “The union shall have
    competence to define and
    implement a common foreign
    and security policy, including
    the progressive framing of a
    common defence policy”.


    In my book a common european defence policy is as good as a common european military force.

    You book does not count, there is no european army, and all aspects of the common defense policy are subject to unaminity.

    What changes have the defence forces made in preparation for assimilation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭drunken_munky52


    To quote Joe Higgins:

    "If the Lisbon Treaty is passed, it will give a further impetus to the right wing, neo liberal agenda which the European Union has been driving hard through its structures.

    The EU Commission likes to give the impression that it is a neutral body which approaches economic policy in an impartial way. It is anything but. The Commission has vigorously pushed measures to secure the privatisation of public enterprises and services which is grist to the profits of big private corporations.

    Little wonder then that the economic policy of the EU has been hostile to public ownership of infrastructure and services and has pushed for opening up these areas of society to profit seeking business interests. Postal services and electricity supply are just two examples.

    The Lisbon Treaty lays the basis for a further extension of privatisation. It calls for a system in the ‘internal market’ to ensure ‘that competition is not distorted’ and calls for ‘uniformity in measures of liberalisation.’ This is code for hiving off to the corporate sector important parts of public services, the most profitable parts of course.

    Over the last ten years, Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrat governments have implemented very right wing economic policies. Taxes for big business and speculators were slashed while vital companies like Telecom Eireann and of Aer Lingus were privatised.

    Lisbon provides the mechanism for a further twist to the privatisation agenda. The EU Commission is nominated to negotiate international trade agreements on a global basis with organisations like the World Trade Organisation. With its firm neo liberal stance, the Commission can be expected to recommend that public services including health and education are obliged to allow profit seeking private corporations in."

    In regards to his point about Eircom, we would be more than able to afford our high speed broadband network by now if profit was not an issue... like wise with Aer Lingus, you can see that crucial connections into Shannon airport are constanstly under the microscope and sometimes even axed in the name of profit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Joe Higgins, who exactly is he??:confused:

    *Googles*

    Ahh now I remember. I rather like that guy he's the one who looks out for workers, he's also so an atheist so I like that a lot(Prefer, Jimmy Carr though:)). While I disagree with his position on Lisbon, I just wanted to say that Joe Higgins is a good person with a moral attitude towards politics even if his views aren't always the right ones. Did you know that he only accepted have of the TD salary? Now that's nobility for you. He also spent a month in jail, now that's a sign of true activism caring for the community for you, and let's not forget his care for the GAMA workers so wrongfully mistreated by their company.
    Joe Higgins, I salute you.

    Now, Mr Higgins, I'd just like you to know, that when the green aliens do come (and they WILL come) our shelter will be ready, the folk at CERN will have their Dan Brown weapons perfected (named in honour ,of course, after the author who first popularly described them) and we will be able to defend ourselves - how effective we'll been depends on many things, but Mr Higgins I've no doubt in your bravery in the face of battle.
    The battles will be fierce, but Joe, after your valiant (but hopefully failed) Lisbon Referendum, you will be able to cope with anyone or anything in the name of politics and the world. It is with these words that I finish my nonsensical letter, the only sense is coming after this : Vote Yes, it's better for all of us this way, and I won't be having to make stuff up about aliens to string you along,.

    Salutations
    Malt


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭drunken_munky52


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Joe Higgins, who exactly is he??:confused:

    That when the green aliens do come (and they WILL come) our shelter will be ready, the folk at CERN will have their Dan Brown weapons perfected (named in honour ,of course, after the author who first popularly described them) and we will be able to defend ourselves -

    Vote Yes, it's better for all of us this way, and I won't be having to make stuff up about aliens to string you along,.

    :rolleyes:

    You are the alien Malty... you have blasted off from Planet X and secretly arrived on Earth before the mothership arrives... "to prepare us" for this... we are been set up by you beings, so that we will bow before their might in awe...

    if we bend over and take it for Lisbon by voting yes, our will to resist is finished... and the aliens can come down a give us the good shafting they intend to... without fear of losing their teeth in the process...

    Lisbon for life... NOT... those aliens will also be getting the two fingers I intend to point at Europe on referendum day


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭fergusman


    "Public opinion will be led to
    adopt, without knowing it, the
    proposals that we dare not
    present to them directly."


    "All the earlier proposals will
    be in the new text, but will be
    hidden and disguised in some
    way."


    "What was already difficult
    to understand will become
    utterly incomprehensible, but
    the substance has been
    retained."


    Words ofValéry Giscard d'Estaing -
    Former French President
    Headed committee that wrote the Lisbon Treaty



    I'd advise you to read this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055684513




    He didnt head the committee that wrote the Lisbon Treaty either.

    Surely people can come up with better than this crap.:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    :rolleyes:

    You are the alien Malty... you have blasted off from Planet X and secretly arrived on Earth before the mothership arrives... "to prepare us" for this... we are been set up by you beings, so that we will bow before their might in awe...

    if we bend over and take it for Lisbon by voting yes, our will to resist is finished... and the aliens can come down a give us the good shafting they intend to... without fear of losing their teeth in the process...

    Alien me??? Eh, I suppose you could be right, I mean how could I possibly know. As for preparation, well it's obviously not going that well because the first thing an alien race would require of humans in honesty. Honesty in humans, eh, is such a thing even remotely possible? The issue becomes all the more interesting when one asks whether the being being dishonest is actually doing so with intent, or whether they are oblivious to the truth and have been duped into supporting a lie. That is really an important issue, how many people voting on this referendum are doing it based on an honest opinion instead of one fed to them by others that moves their emotions effortlessly but is actually a fabricated tale.
    The aliens, I'm sure, would not appreciate liars or deceivers and although they may arrive as a friendly race willing to share once they learn the human ways they will be ultimately disappointed, except of course in the case Joe Higgins he will be their shining light! I do not doubt for a second that Joe has been 'duped' by these no sayers as have you Drunken, I just hope that someday you will question your sources and read the treaty in all it's epic glory for yourself before it is too late. The opinions of others, while elegant, can be utterly misleading.
    The aliens, when they come, will expect integrity and honesty, even if no is the vote it should be so for fair and honest reasons not speculative exaggerations but then again they are aliens so what are they to say about how humans should live their lives? Well it matters dearly to them, because Ireland is such a beautiful nation and has many benefited greatly from some of its neighbours throughout the years : it's time to give something back and keep this wonderful relationship going. The EU is the reason our alien visitors are here : They have come to learn about the BEST system the humans have at the moment so that they may use it and try to improve on it in their own green worlds of wonder.

    Malt

    Lisbon for life... NOT... those aliens will also be getting the two fingers I intend to point at Europe on referendum day
    P.s
    I presume you mean the V for 'Victory in Europe Day' gesture?That was the day Europe became united under peace; a wise choice Drunken, a wise choice..
    My little greens friends have a sense of growing pride about you..:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Here is a link to a very informative paper that actually references the articles in the treaty of major concern to the No side which transparently then backs up all the issues we are being told is nonsense from the Yes side such Militarisation, Taxation & the loss of direct power in each countrys internal affairs by its own government.....if you are unsure of what to vote read this paper & make an informed decision on you & your childrens future because one thing is certain if this is passed into being there will be no way back to where we are now so you should be sure before Oct. 2nd...

    http://www.sovereignindependent.com/downloads.php

    If any of you have Bebo or Facebook pages & already rightly beleive that this is the worst possible thing that can happen to our country spread the content of this post, this paper & mediafire link which is the same as the PDF attached.......download the PDF & E-Mail it also to friend's & encourage them to do the same......spread the information as far as possible on the net to friends & users & to personal E-Mails for a NO!

    http://www.mediafire.com/?vgmmjxq3xy2

    Or you could read the document I've attached here which uses the treaty itself to show that this 'sovereign' independent is full of crap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    REPSOC1916 wrote: »
    My dad is friends with a few Defence Forces Officers. One of them told him that all the necessary bureaucratic and logistical changes had been made to the IDF's structure in order to assimilate into the European Army. Frankly we're moving closer into a United Stated of Europe.
    I was chatting to an Army medic based in the Curragh, she said most of the defense forces don't want Lisbon because they oppose large scale EU battlegroups.

    My friends dad is God and he says we all should vote Yes to Lisbon or be smoted.

    It's great fun to make up stuff isn't it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭drunken_munky52


    Malty_T wrote: »

    A fabricated tale.

    The spirit of the time; the taste and outlook characteristic of a period or generation.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    The aliens, I'm sure, would not appreciate liars or deceivers

    Yes... the politicians, the bankers, the advertising firms... these are all saints, they would never lie, they have nothing to worry about in this life or the next... safe as houses they are and will continue to manipulate the populations perceptions for their own self preservation as long as the collective consciousness you are a member of stay tuned in to their their frequency of thinking
    Malty_T wrote: »
    It's time to give something back and keep this wonderful relationship going. The EU is the reason our alien visitors are here : They have come to learn about the BEST system the humans have at the moment so that they may use it and try to improve on it in their own green worlds of wonder.

    Wonderful relationship is a wrong way to phrase it. We are not in a relationship with the EU... we are part of it and will continue to do so long after Lisbon is rejected.

    We dont owe them anything... whos they??? The bullies at the top like Sarkozy, Merkal, Burlisconi etc? Why should voting yes for Lisbon pay these people? What are we paying for? We really need to get away from this notion of feeling guilty for rejecting them... and its the fear of rejecting them that has people by the balls right now... or is it just the fear of the ways things are now at present thats causing us to fear even more?!

    Malty_T wrote: »
    That was the day Europe became united under peace; a wise choice Drunken, a wise choice.
    Europe is United, division is not in question.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    My little greens friends have a sense of growing pride about you..:)[/I]

    Yes Malty... bend over backwards and take the alien anal probe you so desperately want, they aint getting this asshole Im sitting on, thats for sure...:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    To quote Joe Higgins:

    "If the Lisbon Treaty is passed, it will give a further impetus to the right wing, neo liberal agenda which the European Union has been driving hard through its structures.

    The EU Commission likes to give the impression that it is a neutral body which approaches economic policy in an impartial way. It is anything but. The Commission has vigorously pushed measures to secure the privatisation of public enterprises and services which is grist to the profits of big private corporations.

    Little wonder then that the economic policy of the EU has been hostile to public ownership of infrastructure and services and has pushed for opening up these areas of society to profit seeking business interests. Postal services and electricity supply are just two examples.

    The Lisbon Treaty lays the basis for a further extension of privatisation. It calls for a system in the ‘internal market’ to ensure ‘that competition is not distorted’ and calls for ‘uniformity in measures of liberalisation.’ This is code for hiving off to the corporate sector important parts of public services, the most profitable parts of course.

    Over the last ten years, Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrat governments have implemented very right wing economic policies. Taxes for big business and speculators were slashed while vital companies like Telecom Eireann and of Aer Lingus were privatised.

    Lisbon provides the mechanism for a further twist to the privatisation agenda. The EU Commission is nominated to negotiate international trade agreements on a global basis with organisations like the World Trade Organisation. With its firm neo liberal stance, the Commission can be expected to recommend that public services including health and education are obliged to allow profit seeking private corporations in."

    Here's the link to the treaty again so feel free to post the parts that do these things.

    But let me look into my crystal ball and see what's going to happen here. I'm not going to get the parts of the treaty that do this because they aren't in the treaty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Is mise le key


    fergusman wrote: »
    I'd advise you to read this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055684513

    He didnt head the committee that wrote the Lisbon Treaty either.

    Surely people can come up with better than this crap.:confused:

    So he headed the Drafting of the European constitution/Lisbon Treaty it virtually the same deal.........

    I accept fully and stand corrected that the snippet i posted does appear to be taken out of context but after reading through the pages on the link provided it shows only that the man who headed the european constitution is dismayed & annoyed at the way the Lisbon Treaty is designed to hide away the context & meaning of what he worked on........
    But it (the lisbon treaty) presents European citizens with the idea that the European project is a mechanism organised behind their backs by lawyers and diplomats

    So to summarise;

    The man who headed the european constitution is pis.sed off at the way the Lisbon Treaty is hiding from the ordinary public what was rejected by the French & Dutch as it will lead public opinion to the conclusion that what is being presented to them is not transparent.

    This itself shows that the european union is actually insidious in nature to achieve its goals which are not in the public interest.

    You have successfully concreted the argument to Vote NO as why should the Treay have to conceal its content in order to be passed?

    1. It is the same body of text really that has been rejected now three times by three seperate countrys which tells you in lay mans terms that the powers that be dont give a damn what you think all that is required from you is to agree.

    2. It is not in the interest of the political establishment to have the general population understand the content of the document as if they do it will be rejected again (not acceptable).




    One last thing i will note is your sig. Meglome.....41 billion for free from those EU Bastards.....its simple buisness figures really they give us 41 billion for this & that & we agree to allow the whole of the rest of europe (even land locked nations) to fish off our coasts which Nets the EU approx 200 billion back into the euorpean economy......not a bad deal turning 41 into 200 billion......now i know as a small nation we could never have fished that amount of stock so it makes sense to share the wealth but that said dont ever throw up as part of the argument that we owe so much to europe because of the funding they grant for this & that as we have contributed more than our fair share back into the Union.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Has anyone browse any of the social sites, U Tube, Facebook, Bebo etc?

    I believe the YES crowd are shi**ing in their trousers at the huge number of NO videos, hits and responses, so much so that the bookies have now changed their odds. You must remember that it was the younger crowd that swung the figures the last time, the same crowd that frequent these social networking sites. :pac:

    This is one part where the YES sided propaganda machine fails to penetrate and the Government has no control over yet. :D

    It may not last though because if the EU Parliament had its way it would introduce Internet Censorship and Blog banning. :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    One last thing i will note is your sig. Meglome.....41 billion for free from those EU Bastards.....its simple buisness figures really they give us 41 billion for this & that & we agree to allow the whole of the rest of europe (even land locked nations) to fish off our coasts which Nets the EU approx 200 billion back into the euorpean economy......not a bad deal turning 41 into 200 billion......now i know as a small nation we could never have fished that amount of stock so it makes sense to share the wealth but that said dont ever throw up as part of the argument that we owe so much to europe because of the funding they grant for this & that as we have contributed more than our fair share back into the Union.

    Ah the 200 billion figure. I've been looking for a month for anyone to explain where this figure comes from and shock horror I can't even come close. Unfortunately this number is utter fantasy and while I can find plenty of people saying it not one of them can explain where it comes from.
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Here are the real figures, in millions of year 2000 dollars:

    Year|Ireland|France|UK|Spain|Russia|Netherlands|Norway|Faeroe(Denmark)|Germany|Belgium|Latvia|Others|Total
    1950|12.03|45.4|55.68|0|0|0|0|0|0|1.66|0|0|114.76
    1951|9.79|50.24|64.93|0|0|0|0|0|0|1.05|0|0.01|126.02
    1952|14.37|62.18|59.14|0|0|0.01|0|0|0|1.55|0|0.06|137.31
    1953|15.53|47.35|56.18|6.12|29.35|0|0|0|0|0.95|3.14|3.19|161.8
    1954|14.84|60.11|23.38|0|48.17|0|0|0|0|0.83|4.11|4.72|156.17
    1955|19.48|71.44|43.88|0|55.52|0.81|0|0.01|0|3.32|4.8|5.73|204.98
    1956|18.43|61.2|42.01|0|54.89|0.02|0|0|0|4.49|5.11|5.87|192.01
    1957|16.12|62.34|32.36|0|36.71|0|0|0.06|8.47|6.13|4.86|6.02|173.07
    1958|21.31|86.66|36.73|0|31.52|0.11|0|0|2.93|6.45|4.64|5.96|196.32
    1959|23.26|84.01|31.94|0|34.22|1.24|0|0|1.99|4.21|5|6.65|192.53
    1960|21.17|121.28|34.31|0|34.74|0.76|0|0|0.32|1.37|4.74|6.15|224.85
    1961|20.99|78.1|26.48|0|35.34|1.01|0|0|0.23|3.02|3.61|4.62|173.4
    1962|21.45|103.47|26.01|0|41.2|0.24|0|0|1.7|2.92|4.01|5.03|206.04
    1963|22.19|104.44|26.84|0|36.89|1.52|0|0|0.25|1.66|4.84|5.94|204.57
    1964|22.24|97.74|33.03|0|33.1|1.09|0|0|0.28|3.45|5.15|6.75|202.82
    1965|23.67|110.98|31.49|32.48|25.77|1.43|0|0.37|0.36|4.16|5.02|6.41|242.14
    1966|29.2|163.61|26.53|0|32.03|5.16|0|0|0.98|2.89|4.88|6.21|271.49
    1967|30.22|87.1|29.92|0|36.43|6.76|0|0.97|0.96|2|4.51|5.6|204.48
    1968|31.86|100.48|29.23|0|54.42|5.18|0|0|1.02|1.96|4.75|5.74|234.65
    1969|36.71|116|30.68|0|67.96|4.93|0|0|1.98|2.05|4.78|5.75|270.85
    1970|43.58|108.04|30.92|0|80.98|3.25|2.3|0|1.13|3.1|7.59|8.22|289.11
    1971|44.78|104.54|31.48|0|104.36|3.8|9.57|0.92|0.04|2.76|8.24|10.67|321.16
    1972|58.09|89.5|36.9|29.32|83.72|5.49|2.28|0|0.26|1.63|8.41|10.04|325.64
    1973|34.86|117.97|47.9|136.42|22.28|5.43|5.45|0.94|1.08|3.19|2.63|4.81|382.97
    1974|31.87|104.93|40.6|140.64|63.3|3.01|4.29|0.57|1.66|2.99|5.23|8.22|407.3
    1975|31.29|93.85|33.56|174.21|131.27|6.8|0.39|0.23|2.35|2.29|8.25|14.44|498.92
    1976|39.29|68.67|38.75|150.06|203.93|6.37|1.26|1.32|2.21|3.64|14.53|22.41|552.45
    1977|36.39|53.7|42.41|40.41|18.41|6.82|0.63|1.59|2.67|2.73|1.71|4.77|212.24
    1978|40.09|53.01|44.4|25.76|0|6.11|1.65|5.38|9.19|2.12|0|2.87|190.57
    1979|43.43|54.28|41.76|31.34|0|6.34|3.23|4.09|4.54|2.08|0|3.76|194.87
    1980|55.48|60.58|30.5|19.76|0|9.98|3.53|8.07|4.11|2.72|0|4.22|198.94
    1981|67.49|111.72|42.69|25.53|0|18.4|5.34|0.42|4.11|3.96|0|2.79|282.45
    1982|79.71|97.11|48.93|24.85|0|18.2|7.65|5.71|1.63|3.98|0|3.02|290.79
    1983|77.27|107.91|35.22|25.41|0|21.3|8|5.92|3.34|3.86|0|3.46|291.71
    1984|75.95|94.01|47.3|32.51|0|31.69|7.67|8.51|1.69|3.63|0|3|305.95
    1985|85.94|78.04|50.34|35.05|0|9.74|8.25|8.17|1.76|3.65|0|2.59|283.52
    1986|85.47|74.73|62.75|31.14|0|17.94|11.11|18.48|1.57|3.88|0|2.9|309.98
    1987|99.72|66.5|78.44|38.64|0|8.57|9.41|29.67|2.57|2.32|0|2.7|338.55
    1988|100.26|66.74|73.21|46.1|0|15.02|10.53|30.99|5.38|2.04|0|2.77|353.05
    1989|104.36|95.29|56.65|54.64|0|11.88|15.59|36.08|5.27|3.35|0|2.25|385.37
    1990|102.87|79.47|60.66|51.93|0|18.15|14.82|20.96|4.27|2.44|0|1.16|356.73
    1991|105.09|58.54|63.13|60.55|0|19|5.37|3.96|4.42|1.24|0|1.16|322.46
    1992|153.25|64.32|76.19|68.47|0|19.39|5.06|2.52|8.64|1.71|0|2.21|401.76
    1993|155.2|67.45|74.07|71.86|0|27.71|6.55|4.33|11.55|2.09|0|1.46|422.27
    1994|138.49|68.75|80.06|66.55|0|21.25|8.92|7.5|12.98|2.9|0|2.47|409.89
    1995|157.79|83.43|74.96|77.67|0|22.76|10.52|4.22|8.26|3.75|0|5.77|449.13
    1996|141.47|69.86|73.37|71.16|0.59|23.19|13.88|0.33|6.91|3.66|0|3.8|408.22
    1997|168.29|80.09|82.45|109.1|0.89|30.73|11.27|1.17|4.6|3.88|0|2|494.45
    1998|216.86|84.27|79.59|72.88|0.22|32.35|25.21|1.7|15.75|2.85|0|2.09|533.76
    1999|204.95|74.88|78.81|66.53|1.32|20.98|10.99|5.48|8.64|2.69|0|2.2|477.45
    2000|153.12|94.37|60.15|47.57|0|30.09|9.24|0|12.94|2.2|0|1.64|411.32
    2001|160.66|81.57|61.79|42.73|0|44.4|8.21|0|12.98|2.59|0|2.25|417.19
    2002|154.32|78.82|58.05|63.92|0|34.7|8.39|0|10.4|2.71|0|1.39|412.71
    2003|191.39|75.44|54.54|79.97|0|43.43|17.38|0|9.55|2.86|0|1.16|475.73
    2004|198.02|66.42|50|59.9|0|60.73|12|0|9.26|2.71|0|1.37|460.42
    Total|3490.64|0|1843.23|2043.26|442.21|652.46|271.79|218.31|196.28|92.71|32.35|123.11|11933.12


    Source (Click show tabular data)

    If we throw all of the "Other" category in as EU members, then the total amount of fish the other EU states have taken from our waters is $5.2bn since 1973, while we have had $3.5bn. Over the same period we've received probably close to another half a billion in funding for our fisheries, including the building of 5 out of our 8 existing fisheries protection vessels.

    You're free to argue that even that is wrong, if you like, but what you're not free to do is pluck utterly ridiculous figures out of the air.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Has anyone browse any of the social sites, U Tube, Facebook, Bebo etc?

    I believe the YES crowd are shi**ing in their trousers at the huge number of NO videos, hits and responses, so much so that the bookies have now changed their odds. You must remember that it was the younger crowd that swung the figures the last time, the same crowd that frequent these social networking sites. :pac:

    This is one part where the YES sided propaganda machine fails to penetrate and the Government has no control over yet. :D

    I know, there are loads of videos that show the world is run by reptilians who are ready and willing to oppress and enslave us. I dunno what we'd do without anonymous internet videos that tell us the 'truth'.
    It may not last though because if the EU Parliament had its way it would introduce Internet Censorship and Blog banning. :eek:

    Since the Lisbon treaty makes the EU more accountable then voting Yes is the only way to go. Thanks Rtdh for clearing that up. :eek:


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