Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

MPEG2 vs MPEG4 DTT

Options
13

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    ynotdu wrote: »
    watty thank you for reply,i see you are having a busy time so want to assure you this is a genuine question.what association do you mean?after that i can google/wiki it to learn more.

    thanks in advance.
    CEDA (Consumer Electronics Distributors Assoc.)

    Samsung, for one, have MPEG4 tuners in all their new "B" range now (well, models aimed for sale in ROI, not sure if it's ALL "B" models).

    Sony have a few models that have MPEG4 (don't think all new models will be MPEG4, just higher end, but I've not clarified that yet).

    I'm nearly sure that in the UK, it's still possible to buy TV's without any digital tuner at all.


  • Options
    #63
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    ynotdu wrote: »
    watty thank you for reply,i see you are having a busy time so want to assure you this is a genuine question.what association do you mean?after that i can google/wiki it to learn more.

    thanks in advance.

    CEDA (Consumer Electronics Distributors Association within IBEC) Information Note to Retailers in Jul 2008.

    Also from http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/National+DTT/Useful+Information.htm since last year.
    Information to Retailers
    ...
    DTT Receivers

    A minimum specification for DTT receivers for the Irish Market has been finalised. This specification is available from the RTÉ website – http://www.rtenl.ie/

    Receivers on the Irish market will use the MPEG 4 compression standard which is being used in Estonia, Denmark, France, Hungary, Lithuania, Norway, Portugal, Slovenia, New Zealand and South Africa. More details are available from http://www.dvb.org/. This is different to the MPEG 2 compression standard used in the UK. Retailers should note that televisions with MPEG 2 tuners only, will not pick up the Irish DTT service when it develops.

    The Consumer Electrical Distributors Association, CEDA, has issued the following information notes 1 and 2 to retailers.

    Retailers are requested to ensure that iDTV’s on sale in Ireland will be compatible with the Irish DTT network, when it launches. In the meantime, it is vital that retailers ensure that customers are given accurate information about televisions currently for sale. Retailers are also urged to ensure that a sufficient range of receivers (including set top boxes, integrated digital televisions and personal video recorders) specified for use on the Irish DTT network are available to consumers for the launch of DTT services in Ireland.


  • Options
    #64
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Most high end DVB-T TVs cab take a cam don't they ?


  • Options
    #65
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Most high end DVB-T TVs cab take a cam don't they ?
    An iDTV (larger than 12") must have 1 CI slot by EU Directive.


  • Options
    #66
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Imagine you are Cathal Goan & Co at Montrose this afternoon and the Government and BCI.

    a) Boxer has failed as expected.
    b) The other BCI bidders are being distinctly coy and unlikely to play ball.
    c) Freesat offers all UK channels for under 200 euros
    d) The Irish economy is, like the British, decidely f*****d.
    e) You have rolled out a partial DTT test network.
    f) Which standards should you use to roll out any future system?
    g) Who is going to pay for it all?
    h) Should we use MPEG4 T1, MPEG4 T2 or just stick with analogue PAL till ir blows over?
    i) Who is going to test it all?
    j) Can I have a combined DVB-S2/DVB-T1 solution?
    k) Who can afford to fund universal DTT coverage?
    l) How could I solve a hybrid satellite/main stations DVB-T1 problem bearing in mind the rights issues?
    m)How can I leverage pan-EU economies of scale and scope?

    Too many questions and too few people to write a speculative cheque.
    PREDICTION: They'll be off to the pub this afternoon and Irish DTT may have another long delay, alas.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    mjsmyth
    Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭mjsmyth


    a) Boxer has failed as expected.

    No surprise there at all.

    b) The other BCI bidders are being distinctly coy and unlikely to play ball.

    Perhaps realisation that they too won't be able to make it work.

    c) Freesat offers all UK channels for under 200 euros

    No news there. BBC and ITV have been free for a good few years now.

    d) The Irish economy is, like the British, decidely f*****d.

    Don't I just know it.

    e) You have rolled out a partial DTT test network.

    Partial makes it sound like a minimal role out.... A lot of the country can get DTT.

    f) Which standards should you use to roll out any future system?

    Already decided, Mpeg4 and Mheg 5

    g) Who is going to pay for it all?

    The same people who were paying for it in the first place.

    h) Should we use MPEG4 T1, MPEG4 T2 or just stick with analogue PAL till ir blows over?

    Already been decided. Mpeg4 DVB-T is the standard. There are no DVB-T2 receivers out there and will not be any time soon.

    i) Who is going to test it all?

    The DTT tests have been completed.

    j) Can I have a combined DVB-S2/DVB-T1 solution?

    Yes you can. http://www.saortv.com/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2

    k) Who can afford to fund universal DTT coverage?

    You will never get universal DTT coverage.

    l) How could I solve a hybrid satellite/main stations DVB-T1 problem bearing in mind the rights issues?

    What do you mean?

    m)How can I leverage pan-EU economies of scale and scope?

    Huh?


  • Options
    #68
    CrowdedHouse
    Registered Users Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭CrowdedHouse


    Yawn...has someone got a shed full of MPEG2 STB's and tellys..........

    Seven Worlds will Collide



  • Options
    #69
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    CrowdedHouse wrote: »
    Yawn...has someone got a shed full of MPEG2 STB's and tellys..........

    That isn't the answer either .

    The REAL issue is who is going to pay for a) the capex of the national DTT network and b) the annualised operating costs of the DTT network going forward? Not RTENL. The next couple of weeks could be rather interesting indeed. Given the history here another stall is likely.


  • Options
    #70
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The PSB mux was always to be paid for by the existing broadcasters to RTENL, just like Analogue. So the MPEG2/MPEG4/Boxer/PayTV arguements are not relevent.


  • Options
    #71
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,542 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    watty wrote: »
    The PSB mux was always to be paid for by the existing broadcasters to RTENL, just like Analogue. So the MPEG2/MPEG4/Boxer/PayTV arguements are not relevent.

    The only possible relevant is that maybe RTÉNL have already forked out some dosh to buy the equipment for the PAY-TV mux and the loss of the revenue from PAY-TV might hamper them somewhat...


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Cush wrote: »
    108 to 137 MHz are allocated worldwide to aeronautical navigation and communications (incl Emergency Freq. 121.5), they will not be reallocted. Imagine the cost of upgrading the worldwide airfleet with new nav and comms equipment let alone the ground element, where would you reallocate aeronautical VHF comms and nav?

    The Digital Dividend as we know it today applies to the Broadcasting bands.

    I didn't mean From 120MHz to 200MHz absolute Frequency, but 120MHz to 200MHz of Bandwidth. At least 750Mhz to 862MHz. UK is also looking at part or all of 470MHz to 550MHz as part of Digital Dividend.


  • Options
    #73
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    I didn't mean From 120MHz to 200MHz absolute Frequency, but 120MHz to 200MHz of Bandwidth. At least 750Mhz to 862MHz. UK is also looking at part or all of 470MHz to 550MHz as part of Digital Dividend.

    OK I understand, it wasn't clear from your previous post.

    Since WRC07 Europe is attempting to harmonise 790 to 862 MHz (61-69) for the Digital Dividend but this may not be possible continent wide e.g. Spain. The UK is also falling into line with Europe by changing their original plan for the digital dividend now Ch 61-69/31-37. The telecoms industry are still trying for a larger chunk (112 MHz) of the UHF spectrum to be allocated 750-862 MHz (56-69) but for the moment 72 MHz seems to be it with the EBU representing broadcasters arguing against any further allocation in the UHF band.

    The Americas and some of Asia are allocating a larger chunk of spectrum to the digital dividend (698-862 MHz band) but in these countries VHF is also used for digital broadcasting with 6 MHz channels.


  • Options
    #74
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    bk wrote: »
    MPEG4 broadcasting equipment is fully backwards compatible with MPEG2, so RTE could switch to MPEG2 over night if they wanted to, at no extra cost.

    If this is the case why cant we have a MPEG2 mux to start with as it looks like there will be enough space.

    Everyone will be happy then!!


  • Options
    #75
    tretle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭tretle


    • Because the countries that have DTT up and running are already trying to upgrade to mpeg4 and by the time we get ours up and running properly Britain will have switched to mpeg4 and we will be stuck at mpeg2.

    • Because you can fit more channels(12 per mux with mpeg4).

    • Because theres always the aspect that everyone else in the country shouldn't have to pay because a select few were idiotic enough to have bought mpeg2 decoders without checking whether that was the standard or not.

    And why are you complaining on a god damn message board to the government and RTE for some guy on the highstreet ripping you off, why dont you just go back and return it? Why dont you complain about the actual people that caused this rather than everybody else, or try and make everyone else pay by lowering the standard because of your ****ty purchase?

    Because you love to whine, whine all day, whine about bull, whine about crap, whine selfishly under the disguise of whining for the people. Whine so much you got a whole board dedicated to your rant so others dont have to hear it anymore.

    So stop whining. All you are doing is confusing people that don't know about the subject and needlessly cribbing when the standard has been chosen, and a good standard it is, one with foresight. So get over it......

    I have no idea how I was magically subscribed to this thread as I didn't do it manually, but I'm not going to continue allowing my email to be spammed with updates on this ridiculus rant.

    If I were Watty I would have just deleted those posts rather than keep them going in another thread.


  • Options
    #76
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    tretle wrote: »
    I have no idea how I was magically subscribed to this thread as I didn't do it manually, but I'm not going to continue allowing my email to be spammed with updates on this ridiculus rant.

    If I were Watty I would have just deleted those posts rather than keep them going in another thread.

    Because you and I where talking over the big MPEG2/MPEG4 debate and thus we end up subscribed to a thread that we aren't that interested in and that is moot at this stage :mad:


  • Options
    #77
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    snaps wrote: »
    If this is the case why cant we have a MPEG2 mux to start with as it looks like there will be enough space.

    Everyone will be happy then!!

    Because then ppl would "dump" obsolescent MPEG2 gear on Irish market and before you know it 500,000 MPEG2 setboxes/TVs and MPEG4 then more than 10 years away.

    Even if it was only legal to sell MPEG4 gear from now on. You know the only way to get the market to supply MPEG4 is not legislation but have only MPEG4 transmission. Once the the service is publicised and launched the retailers will all have MPEG4 gear.


  • Options
    #78
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    tretle wrote: »
    I have no idea how I was magically subscribed to this thread as I didn't do it manually, but I'm not going to continue allowing my email to be spammed with updates on this ridiculus rant.

    If I were Watty I would have just deleted those posts rather than keep them going in another thread.

    I was inclined to delete them all as was Byte. But there was "popular demand" and another thread started which was really a demand for MPEG2. The database got a little confused as I merged the old posts with new thread. You can unsubscribe in your control panel

    The three moderators come to a consensus on most things and we do listen to the views of ALL the posters.


  • Options
    #79
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    cheers watty. There is a lot of Pro's & cons of Mpeg 2/Mpeg 4 in most peoples eyes. Especially me as well as i have 4 tv's able to receive mpeg 2, but not one able to receive mpeg 4 without an upgrade, but even then a cam may not be good enough? Another box under the tv perhaps?


  • Options
    #80
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Should 99% of the population have MPEG2 because 1% were sold pups by unscrupulous or ignorant dealers?


  • Options
    #81
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    I think we should just stick with Analogue at this stage. Most people don't have either Mpeg4 or 2. Why should they be forced to buy new equipment just because some of use want digital? *


    *It is a rhetorical question.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    a bientot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭a bientot


    watty wrote: »
    Should 99% of the population have MPEG2 because 1% were sold pups by unscrupulous or ignorant dealers?

    When France introduced its TNT (DTT) and announced that it was going down the MPEG2 route the contributors to the equivalent of ICDG engaged in heavy debate on why this outdated system was being adopted instead of the newly almost arrived MPEG4. The reason was simple - a huge order was made for MPEG2 STBs side by side with the U.K. so if France had decided to go directly to MPEG4 cancellation charges would have operated and also there would not have been enough MPEG4s available.
    The majority of customers will stay with MPEG2s providing the 18 free terrestrial channels until their tv sets give out and will then buy a new tv set -a HDtv MPEG4 tv set.
    Amazingly there are very few brand new MPEG2 tv sets on the market in France. They have all been sent to stores in the U.K. and amazingly also Ireland.


  • Options
    #83
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    a bientot wrote: »
    They have all been sent to stores in the U.K. and amazingly also Ireland.

    This is because we always look towards Britain rather than other European countries (OTT but this has been one of the reason for our Economic Downfall that and looking toward the US), and also the fact that Dixson, Curries and PCWorld and Tesco all have bases here.


  • Options
    #84
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    watty wrote: »
    Should 99% of the population have MPEG2 because 1% were sold pups by unscrupulous or ignorant dealers?

    That simply isn't true Watty, the vast majority of TV's sold in Ireland over the last three years and almost every flat LCD HDTV has come with a MPEG2 tuner.

    That means the majority of the Irish population, not just 1%

    What is interesting is that no one has been able to give a good reason to go MPEG4 other then it is shiny and new. The only reason given is that it is more efficient and will allow for more channels, but that is irrelevant now as we will be lucky to get 4 channels on DTT now.


  • Options
    #85
    a bientot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭a bientot


    bk wrote: »
    That simply isn't true Watty, the vast majority of TV's sold in Ireland over the last three years and almost every flat LCD HDTV has come with a MPEG2 tuner.

    That means the majority of the Irish population, not just 1%

    What is interesting is that no one has been able to give a good reason to go MPEG4 other then it is shiny and new. The only reason given is that it is more efficient and will allow for more channels, but that is irrelevant now as we will be lucky to get 4 channels on DTT now.

    Yes, very true but this is the same as in the majority of fellow European countries (yes, creid e no na creid, Ireland is part of Europe) where all tvs for many years have been made with analogue (some with Pal and Secam) and Mpeg2 (digital) tuners. Since December 2008 tv sets being marketed in France are all Mpeg4 as in about three other countries though France is the only country to enforce the in-shop strict labelling requirement. Obviously Ireland is/will be in line to receive these sets also......
    The little problem of the inter activity (MHeg5) may cause some problems, however, apart from the extra cost.
    I for one will go for a simple Mpeg4 when they get cheaper either in Ireland or in France.....

    Dare I suggest that there are tv viewers out there who are looking for brand new plasma or lcd tv sets with a simple analogue vhf/uhf tuner? Would it be ok if the picture was in colour?


  • Options
    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    That simply isn't true Watty, the vast majority of TV's sold in Ireland over the last three years and almost every flat LCD HDTV has come with a MPEG2 tuner.
    Though in fairness it's quite likely that such TVs were bought for use with Sky or even analogue - basically as monitors. I wouldn't think there were many who bought an MPEG-2 only set with the intention of using it on Irish DTT.


  • Options
    #87
    mjsmyth
    Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭mjsmyth


    I have bought 2 flatscreen TV's in the last 3 years and neither has a DTT tuner...

    The other way of looking at this is that the retailers, not knowing till recently what standard Ireland would take, gambled and flooded the market with TV's complete with Mpeg2 DTT tuners and did not inform their customers that these tuners may or may not work with Irish DTT.

    I was in a large computer store during the week and they are still selling Mpeg2 DTT Usb receivers for PC's without any warning on them at all.

    This, to me as a customer, is a disgraceful way of treating customers. It stinks to be quite honest. Should we be led down the Mpeg2 road just because of unscruplous retailers? No, no we should not.

    I do feel that any shop that does not inform their customers of the fact that the digital tuner is not compatible with Irish DTT should be prosecuted. I also feel that no TV should be sold with a Freeview sticker on them. The fact that the sticker is on them shows that they are not for the Irish market in the first place.

    As it happens, by the time Irish DTT actually goes live as a service, many of the TV's sold over the last 3 years will probably need replacing.


  • Options
    #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mjsmyth wrote: »
    I was in a large computer store during the week and they are still selling Mpeg2 DTT Usb receivers for PC's without any warning on them at all.
    Well at least with USB sticks they can be made work because the stick doesn't do any processing in itself, it's all done by the host system which can be updated with codecs if the CPU is good enough.
    mjsmyth wrote: »
    I do feel that any shop that does not inform their customers of the fact that the digital tuner is not compatible with Irish DTT should be prosecuted. I also feel that no TV should be sold with a Freeview sticker on them. The fact that the sticker is on them shows that they are not for the Irish market in the first place.
    This I do agree with. I saw some TVs on sale in Tesco in Abbeyfeale with the Freeview sticker on them, showing all the channels such as E4, More 4, Dave, The Hits etc. Not a hope in hell of getting them via terrestrial down there.


  • Options
    #89
    pbirney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭pbirney


    Karsini wrote: »
    This I do agree with. I saw some TVs on sale in Tesco in Abbeyfeale with the Freeview sticker on them, showing all the channels such as E4, More 4, Dave, The Hits etc. Not a hope in hell of getting them via terrestrial down there.
    M & S in Liffey Valley are still selling Freeview LCD TV's.


  • Options
    #90
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    mjsmyth wrote: »
    I have bought 2 flatscreen TV's in the last 3 years and neither has a DTT tuner...

    ....

    This, to me as a customer, is a disgraceful way of treating customers. It stinks to be quite honest. Should we be led down the Mpeg2 road just because of unscruplous retailers? No, no we should not.

    I think it is largely ignorance and apathy, rather than an attempt to pass of UK DTT gear as usable.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Karsini wrote: »
    Well at least with USB sticks they can be made work because the stick doesn't do any processing in itself, it's all done by the host system which can be updated with codecs if the CPU is good enough.
    OT
    Can I use any old USB MPEG2 key or do I need codecs specific to the device ?
    OS Windows / Ubuntu


Advertisement