"GLuas" to be unveiled for Galway

15-09-2008 12:01am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Munich has the population of Dublin but in about 1 Fifth the area.
.

That really sums up why light rail systems are successful in most European cities and unlikely to succeed in provincial Irish cities.

Passengers per Km.

Sponge Bob · 15-09-2008 12:12am

actually it may be 30% of the area not 20% but it is very compact compared to Dublin .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich

120 square miles with 1.3m people . That is an 11x11 mile square . About the size of the Northside

Cool Mo D · 15-09-2008 6:26pm

That's about the same density as Dublin. Dublin city - i.e. the bit under the control of Dublin City Council has an area of 44 square miles and a population of 505,000 people.
Munich has a metropolitan area of 17000 square miles, with 6 million people, a density of 350 people per square mile, which is actually LOWER than Dublin's population density of 365 people per square mile. Dublin and Munich have very similar densities, and Dublin is quite comparable to many other European cities. It's only once you get to Kildare and Meath that the American-style sprawl begins.

Sponge Bob · 15-09-2008 7:46pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Munich has a metropolitan area of 17000 square miles, with 6 million people, a density of 350 people per square mile, which is actually LOWER than Dublin's population density of 365 people per square mile. Dublin and Munich have very similar densities, and Dublin is quite comparable to many other European cities. It's only once you get to Kildare and Meath that the American-style sprawl begins.

But the Munich Metropolitan area of 6 m people you describe would surely include Meath and Kildare and North Wicklow and South Louth if mapped onto Dublin .

17000 square miles is half the area of the State , 17000 square km ( which is more plausible ) is 1/5 the area of the state .

The state has 4.3m people not 6m . Try to remember they had parts of the U-Bahn in place for the Olympics in 1972 when Dublin probably was thinking of getting the trams back :cool:

Ireland should have looked at a single North South U-Bahn grade pipe instead of the MN medium grade one on the Northside only and then pipe the buses into it to boost catchment instead of running them into town/

That is what Munich did back when they only had one (north south) U-Bahn from Harras to Olympiastadion which is about the Green to the Airport .

.

Cool Mo D · 15-09-2008 8:11pm

Well it is a little more complicated then I let on above. There seems to be three main population densities people talk about when they talk about cities: City density, Urban area density, and Metropolitan area density. For Dublin, the city area, is the city council area, the urban area is county Dublin (Which includes the rural parts of the county north of Balbriggan), and the metropolitan area, which includes the surrounding commuter counties. It's actually quite difficult to fairly compare these, as different countries have different ways of drawing these boundaries.

This PDF compares urban area densities worldwide: it's figures are a little different to mine, but it still gives similar figures, 440 people per square km for Dublin and 465 for Munich. Really, Dublin is a fairly average density European city for the most part - well suited to rail transport, but about a quarter of its population live in a massive sprawl in the neighbouring counties. This doesn't really take away form the fact that the sorta pentagon between Dun Laoghaire, Howth, Swords, Clonee and Tallaght is high density.
http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf

DWCommuter · 16-09-2008 12:49am

I'll simpify for you all.

Galway wants a light rail system before it even attempts to develop a decent bus network.

People actually discuss (positively) the advent of a light rail system for Galway.

Many of you are bonkers.

Any half decent transport consultant, would laugh at "GLUAS" in light of a completely absent transport requirement study for Galway prepared by experts. (not a bunch of half arsed idiots) I'll go as far as saying that Luas is only accepted as successful and necessary because we have consistantly neglected to develop and expand Dublin's Bus services in a manner that is creative, attractive and efficient. In addition to that, a coherent use of existing rail infrastructure is also absent.

Light rail is not a panacea. It is not a trophy. It is a particular solution to a particular problem. Its benefits should not be portrayed as some kind of right of passage for mickey mouse Irish cities. Luas has already proved itself useless for Tallaght. Its empty beyond Drimnagh. Galway needs to develop and utilise a bus service before it can command a hearing for this balloney.

L1011 · 16-09-2008 1:18pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Luas has already proved itself useless for Tallaght. Its empty beyond Drimnagh.

Quoting this so if anyone ever feels a need to claim you're out of touch, they've got evidence!

Its full to and from Belgard, every tram during rush hour. Thats as far as I've ever taken so I don't know if the three remaining stops beyond are busy - I suspect they are.

If it was ever 'empty beyond Drimnagh' it was in the few weeks after the system started, not any time in the past two years. The extra capacity of the tram extensions has been eaten already.

Chris_533976 · 16-09-2008 5:27pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

I'll simpify for you all.

Galway wants a light rail system before it even attempts to develop a decent bus network.

People actually discuss (positively) the advent of a light rail system for Galway.

Many of you are bonkers.

Any half decent transport consultant, would laugh at "GLUAS" in light of a completely absent transport requirement study for Galway prepared by experts. (not a bunch of half arsed idiots) I'll go as far as saying that Luas is only accepted as successful and necessary because we have consistantly neglected to develop and expand Dublin's Bus services in a manner that is creative, attractive and efficient. In addition to that, a coherent use of existing rail infrastructure is also absent.

Light rail is not a panacea. It is not a trophy. It is a particular solution to a particular problem. Its benefits should not be portrayed as some kind of right of passage for mickey mouse Irish cities. Galway needs to develop and utilise a bus service before it can command a hearing for this balloney.

Quoting this for truth (with one Luas sentence removed

)

DWCommuter · 16-09-2008 7:28pm

MYOB wrote: »

Quoting this so if anyone ever feels a need to claim you're out of touch, they've got evidence!

Its full to and from Belgard, every tram during rush hour. Thats as far as I've ever taken so I don't know if the three remaining stops beyond are busy - I suspect they are.

If it was ever 'empty beyond Drimnagh' it was in the few weeks after the system started, not any time in the past two years. The extra capacity of the tram extensions has been eaten already.

Your point about the extra capacity is irrelevent to my point about numbers after Drimnagh on outbound trams and inbound from Tallaght towards Drimnagh. I base my point on meetings with the RPA, community representative groups in the Tallaght area and my own eye witness examples every morning mon - fri in the Tallaght area. The RPA have admitted that the Luas doesn't penetrate the expansive area that is tallaght. In fact the 3 stops in the Tallaght area are quite removed from most of the large housing developments in Tallaght and public transport users have stayed faithful to the bus services, which do at least serve many of the housing areas. Furthermore my point is also based on the entire service all day long and alll week long. But of course if you wish to claim Im out of touch because you are on "every" tram "during rush hour" as far as Belgard (which isn't Tallaght) and you "suspect" the stops beyond it are busy, then I really don't see the point in having an intellectual discussion with you. You've already made up your mind based on your commute. Ta Ta!

Cool Mo D · 16-09-2008 7:40pm

Whenever I've taken the LUAS from Tallaght, it isn't empty in rush hour. It isn't full either, but you wouldn't be guaranteed a seat. It has been a while since I was on it though.

And the bus winding through every housing estate is why it can take 90 minutes to get from the square to town on a busy evening.

bk · 16-09-2008 7:59pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Your point about the extra capacity is irrelevent to my point about numbers after Drimnagh on outbound trams and inbound from Tallaght towards Drimnagh. I base my point on meetings with the RPA, community representative groups in the Tallaght area and my own eye witness examples every morning mon - fri in the Tallaght area. The RPA have admitted that the Luas doesn't penetrate the expansive area that is tallaght. In fact the 3 stops in the Tallaght area are quite removed from most of the large housing developments in Tallaght and public transport users have stayed faithful to the bus services, which do at least serve many of the housing areas. Furthermore my point is also based on the entire service all day long and alll week long. But of course if you wish to claim Im out of touch because you are on "every" tram "during rush hour" as far as Belgard (which isn't Tallaght) and you "suspect" the stops beyond it are busy, then I really don't see the point in having an intellectual discussion with you. You've already made up your mind based on your commute. Ta Ta!

Surely then this is an argument for a local bus service running frequently from the Luas stops to all the housing estates in Tallaght and for integrated ticketing between the two.

L1011 · 16-09-2008 9:56pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Your point about the extra capacity is irrelevent to my point about numbers after Drimnagh on outbound trams and inbound from Tallaght towards Drimnagh. I base my point on meetings with the RPA, community representative groups in the Tallaght area and my own eye witness examples every morning mon - fri in the Tallaght area. The RPA have admitted that the Luas doesn't penetrate the expansive area that is tallaght. In fact the 3 stops in the Tallaght area are quite removed from most of the large housing developments in Tallaght and public transport users have stayed faithful to the bus services, which do at least serve many of the housing areas. Furthermore my point is also based on the entire service all day long and alll week long. But of course if you wish to claim Im out of touch because you are on "every" tram "during rush hour" as far as Belgard (which isn't Tallaght) and you "suspect" the stops beyond it are busy, then I really don't see the point in having an intellectual discussion with you. You've already made up your mind based on your commute. Ta Ta!

As opposed to you who's made up your mind from 'meetings'? Right so.

It not serving an area it doesn't even run through is so mind-boggling obvious I'm surprised you even bothered mentioned it - Tallaght is more than Old Bawn and Firhouse. This is akin to complaining that the DART doesn't serve Dun Laoighaire because its quite some distance from Mounttown, to be honest.

Trams Tallaght-bound in the mornings and City-bound in the evenings are full. This is people who work in the industrial areas of Tallaght which the Luas runs through coming out from inner suburbs / the rail network. You seem to assume that Tallaght residents working in the city are the only people the tram network should be serving!

During the day time the Luas, both lines, is half empty or less *everywhere* on the entire network. You say your point is based on usage of the network at all times - does this mean the entire system has proved useless? Does this mean the DART has proved useless? The road network? Clearly not.

Also, who gave you the ability to define what is and isn't Tallaght? If Belgard isn't Tallaght, where is it? An Post define it as being in Tallaght, SDCC say its in Tallaght. One random person on a forum says its not...

DWCommuter · 16-09-2008 11:59pm

This is akin to complaining that the DART doesn't serve Dun Laoighaire because its quite some distance from Mounttown, to be honest.

No its not actually as that line was built in 1834 to serve a harbour.

As for the rest of your post, I'll merely say this. You are not worth the argument as you think you are right and that everyone else thinks theyre right aswell, without any semblence of adult debate. Thats some conumdrum you put yourself in mate. Ive been here before with you in relation to a commuting route through Citywest. Back then you came out all guns blazing without any provocation in your direction. This time around you sensationalized my comments into a "recording my out of touch stance". You just couldn't offer your opinion without the personalised jibe. I'd have happily debated the issue with you. But alas you have returned to previous form. Its counter productive to the role of any forum. I learned the hard way.

If you have a problem with me personally, (and I have to admit it looks very like you do) take it to pm or even better meet me face to face for a chat. Otherwise take a chill pill and stop flaming and drawing attention from the mods to an already off topic thread.

Debate the issue without the childish, "ooh I got him" baloney. Actually forget it, you don't deserve the effort, so let it go. You'll sleep better at night if you do.

Typewriter · 18-09-2008 12:00am

GLuas is a silly name.

BluntGuy · 18-09-2008 12:08am

Well Gluas isn't gonna be happening anytime within the next fifteen years.

And that's not me being the ugly pessimist it's just a FACT.

The best they can do now is lay out some strategic corridors for the Gluas and build up the areas it will serve so that it has a decent ridership.

weehamster · 18-09-2008 11:42am

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well Gluas isn't gonna be happening anytime within the next fifteen years.

And that's not me being the ugly pessimist it's just a FACT.

The best they can do now is lay out some strategic corridors for the Gluas and build up the areas it will serve so that it has a decent ridership.

You might be right but don't just say 'FACT' unless you actually have some magical device that can look into the future.

serfboard · 18-09-2008 3:05pm

green_jesus wrote: »

GLuas is a silly name.

To reflect a silly concept. Give us 200 million to

1. Give the left lane of every dual carriageway into and around Galway from 6 miles out to bus traffic only. (and no, I'm not talking about the hard shoulder).

2. Resource a lot more buses serving routes people actually want to go e.g. Knocknacarra -> Ballybrit. If you had city buses every 10 minutes at peak times on a dedicated bus lane you'd remove a lot of cars. Also increase the frequency (and create more work-friendly routes) of buses from the satellite towns.

3. Build a plethora of free park and rides to feed this properly-resourced bus service.

4. Increase car parking charges in the city centre. People still obviously feel that they can afford it - or feel they have to because there is no alternative. That, or congestion charge the city centre.

If 200 million wouldn't do all this (and I couldn't see why not), it would certainly go a long way towards it.

BluntGuy · 18-09-2008 4:28pm

weehamster wrote: »

You might be right but don't just say 'FACT' unless you actually have some magical device that can look into the future.

Funny you should say that because I do have a magical device that lets me look into the future.

I've seen many things: co-location being a complete failure, Fianna Fail winning the general election in 2011 (sadly)...

BluntGuy · 18-09-2008 4:30pm

serfboard wrote: »

To reflect a silly concept. Give us 200 million to

1. Give the left lane of every dual carriageway into and around Galway from 6 miles out to bus traffic only. (and no, I'm not talking about the hard shoulder).

2. Resource a lot more buses serving routes people actually want to go e.g. Knocknacarra -> Ballybrit. If you had city buses every 10 minutes at peak times on a dedicated bus lane you'd remove a lot of cars. Also increase the frequency (and create more work-friendly routes) of buses from the satellite towns.

3. Build a plethora of free park and rides to feed this properly-resourced bus service.

4. Increase car parking charges in the city centre. People still obviously feel that they can afford it - or feel they have to because there is no alternative. That, or congestion charge the city centre.

If 200 million wouldn't do all this (and I couldn't see why not), it would certainly go a long way towards it.

Yes, I agree.

Light Rail fails unless there are other modes of transport available, simply because it serves such a limited area. Buses cover a much larger area, for a much lesser cost.

pointofnoreturn · 21-09-2008 10:32pm

i agree too, 200m on the light rail is fine, but it's connecting services that will make it more accessible for poeple, even the bus network at the moment is cat!, i tryed to take a bus from Dangan to Oranmore, and it would take up to 2hrs! because the bus that passes by Dangan to the Square, misses the all the buses that make their way to Dublin, Limerick, Cork, etc.. vi oranmore!

So it makes no point for me to use it! and with most services at 20, to 40mins every hour at best it's doesn't render a good enough solution to people to travel.

Regardless of how much infrastructure we build (rail, road e.g), it needs to be managed proplerly, and NOT by the people that manage it now, as they have not provided us with anything worth having.

Nostradamus · 21-09-2008 10:45pm

Was listening to some of the business people behind this on the radio and it does sound all very serious.

In terms of financing they have already secured a provisional 100 million Euro loan for the construction based on the independent consultants report deming the pax numbers viable.

I must say it was a refreshing change to listen to non hysterical types from the West of Ireland, or a messianic trainspotter evangelist from Dublin make a rational and dignifity case for public transport development in the west without resorting to pointing the finger at the Jackeens or swining a pair of rosary beads over their heads while on hungry strike.

I wish the Gluas people well and I hope they can make a real case and secure funding. They won me over. I have always believed that a limited light rail system for Galway city would be a good idea.

BluntGuy · 21-09-2008 11:20pm

Well I'm still going to play the nervous sceptic.

I'm not saying DON'T build it...

But one has to think...

Is it really viable now?

pointofnoreturn · 21-09-2008 11:25pm

viable or not, i was told once you can never justify the importance of public infrastructure, it helps to build a good country and if this takes a few + 10years, it will be planned and will cost less if we didn't plan it from the first place.

Best of luck to the GLuas team, keep us informed

BluntGuy · 21-09-2008 11:35pm

Yes. I agree.

They have to plan it properly, build up the areas it will ultimately serve and have a corridor reserved for it.

Of course, *planning* is a word that you won't find it any Irish government dictionary. Hopefully, this'll be a pleasant exception...

dowlingm · 25-09-2008 8:29pm

Are they talking about a generic tramway like LUAS or using Galway as a guinea pi... er... "early adopter" of the Trampower City Class trams?

Trampower bid on the Toronto downtown streetcar project last year - a project so technically challenging that Siemens and Alstom passed on the first RFP and Bombardier got bounced by the technical criteria - Trampower got cut for lack of financial compliance. The media getting hold of the "test tram gutted by fire" didn't help either.

Nostradamus · 26-09-2008 1:35pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Are they talking about a generic tramway like LUAS or using Galway as a guinea pi... er... "early adopter" of the Trampower City Class trams?

Trampower bid on the Toronto downtown streetcar project last year - a project so technically challenging that Siemens and Alstom passed on the first RFP and Bombardier got bounced by the technical criteria - Trampower got cut for lack of financial compliance. The media getting hold of the "test tram gutted by fire" didn't help either.

Single tracks Luas with passing and return loops. Overhead wires, Citadis the lot. A basic luas he said. This is what they costed and it came out at 100 million including property aquisition, utility relocation the works. Well this is what the man said on radio and he didn't sound like he was bull****ting. He specificlly mentioned the single track which was interesting. Would suggest they did real homework on the idea. The entire protecy is to be privately financed and is outside the remit of Transport21.

Now this bring up another can of worms. Will the Irish government try to sabotage it as it is not part of their grand Fianna Fail T21 gameplan. How will it play in the media when a light rail system gets built without a ministerial opening. Can't see cute hoors allowing that.

Cookie_Monster · 26-09-2008 2:37pm

Nostradamus wrote: »

He specificlly mentioned the single track which was interesting.

It work quite well in section of Amsterdam anyway

Hopefully it'll get the go ahead

dowlingm · 26-09-2008 6:55pm

Citadis is due to run on bidirectional single track in Angers on a 300m stretch downtown and at the outer edges of Montpellier line 2 so it can be done.

pointofnoreturn · 05-10-2008 2:17pm

Edinburgh's Attempt looks cool! and they are building it already!

A high-quality, modern and efficient tram network is being created for Edinburgh and is scheduled to be running on the Capital’s streets by 2011.

This integrated transport system will offer a reliable and frequent transport choice to Edinburgh’s growing population and business community, boosting the city’s standing as an international destination for tourism and business.

Edinburgh’s tram network will help to reduce car journeys and ease congestion, providing environmental benefits through improved air quality.

http://www.tramsforedinburgh.co.uk/

reganovich · 05-10-2008 2:25pm

Thats savage news..lets move the jobs around the country and develop the west

"GLuas" to be unveiled for Galway

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