Go-Ahead Win 10% of Dublin Bus routes for tender

Jamie2k9 · 11-08-2017 12:49pm

Sorry if covered, hard to keep track but:

Dublin Bus has lost the right to operate 24 routes across the city from November next year despite submitting a lower- priced bid than the firm which won the contract.

The Irish Independent understands that the State-owned company scored higher than UK firm Go-Ahead on price in a competitive tendering process overseen by the National Transport Authority (NTA), but ranked lower on technical aspects.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/blow-for-dublin-bus-as-uk-firm-wins-contract-for-24-routes-in-capital-36021211.html

brokenarms · 11-08-2017 12:51pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

First off I expect that they will not want experienced DB drivers. They will use a different labour model to DB just as the inter urban route operators do as compared to BE. They use hot swap at bus stops etc.

It is likly that they will use a different employee model where they will employ drivers that wish to work shift patterns that suit them and that in alot of cases are less than 40 hour weeks. It is often not the headline rate/hour that is the issue with legacy transport company's but rather work practices and shift timing.

Employing drivers that wish to suit them selves with regards shift patterns wont work with that many high frequency routes.
They will have to follow the same model as dublin bus and their own model in the UK which is similar.

What different labour model do you speak off? Why would they not want experienced drivers? Please explain .

Jamie2k9 · 11-08-2017 1:08pm

If anything it's a good thing the decision wasn't made to grant it to the lowest bidder. It just completely throws out the union argument from the start of the process.

PS - I know I shouldn't feed the troll!

amcalester · 11-08-2017 1:10pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If anything it's a good thing the decision wasn't made to grant it to the lowest bidder. It just completely throws out the union argument from the start of the process.

PS - I know I shouldn't feed the troll!

Have to admire how quickly they changed their message from it's a race to the bottom to it was rigged, rigged I tells ya

devnull · 11-08-2017 1:13pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If anything it's a good thing the decision wasn't made to grant it to the lowest bidder. It just completely throws out the union argument from the start of the process.

It would be quite ironic alright, .since the fact is that the unions spent a lot of the few years arguing that costs should not be the only factor because that would drive down their members terms and conditions and they even wanted something like a quality aspect to be part of the competition.

If it turns out to be true that they did score better on cost grounds (which is by no means certain) it would have been a spectacular own goal by the unions in the same way that the non TUPE of staff effectively means that Go Ahead will be able to offer lower terms and conditions than they otherwise might have.

Voipjunkie · 11-08-2017 1:38pm

devnull wrote: »

As I said - if Go-Ahead didn't believe they could deliver the services they are contracted to do so, they wouldn't have made a commitment to operate all of the services, at the end of the day I'm sure that further details will come out in due course and either them or the NTA will outline their plans or more details will come forward.

Since building a depot of this size has not been done in the private sector in Ireland in history, since private companies have never been able to bid for such large public transport countries before, it's hard to draw comparisons with how this will go either way. Nobody knows for sure, that is my point and the only way we will find out is with time.

We'll see who is right in 18 months time at the end of the day.

They have not made any commitment, there is no contract, they have been awarded preferred bidder status, the negotiations will continue until they agree a contract or they fail to agree a contract, only when they actually sign a contract will GA have made any commitment on delivering anything.

LXFlyer · 11-08-2017 1:42pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Dublin Bus are expected to fund their operation from the Fare Box.

But that will change when the next contract comes along.

LXFlyer · 11-08-2017 1:43pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can you provide a link to this or anyone confirm. I've a feeling the NTA take DB's fare box now.

They don't - currently they pay a PSO grant to the three CIE companies, and the companies retain the fare box revenue.

Reference the company accounts available on their websites.

ClovenHoof · 11-08-2017 1:48pm

Is astounding to read the excuses and goal post shifting on this thread as to why this will fail.

I am half waiting for one of them to say only DB have the special magical powers to operate bus services. Reminds me of the months leading up to the Luas opening.

I will make the prediction before I am banned. The new operator will double passenger numbers on these routes and it is precisely this success which terrifies CIE unions and their groupies.

Voipjunkie · 11-08-2017 1:48pm

brokenarms wrote: »

What do you think they are going to pay drivers to lure them in?

If its in line with aircoach they wont get any experienced DB drivers.. They pay 14 pound per hour in the UK so unless they increase that, they wont get any of the aircoach guys either.

If they start with a bunch 300 newbies it would be a mess. To say the least.

At the moment I doubt any drivers would even consider making the switch.. Leaving the the CIE fold to work with probably less benefits and no job security, no union protection.

I would say we will have to wait and see if they go all the way to contract, then what conditions they will offer, if the conditions are poor they will struggle to get staff and retain them, AFAIK there is or will be a sectoral employment order so presumably they will have to meet the rates in that whatever they are. If you take the transdev model you couldn't argue that the employees there are poorly paid, they were not the cheapest bid so presumably they have scope to pay similar wages to DB.

GA is unionised in the UK so I doubt there will be any issue there.

As for job security they will have as much as CIE employees, if when GA lose the contract they will transfer over to the new operator on the same terms and conditions as they enjoy with GA, that is how TUPE works, same as transdev employees would do if Transdev lost the contract, or indeed Dublin bus employees would if they decided to move to GA.

Voipjunkie · 11-08-2017 1:51pm

devnull wrote: »

It would be quite ironic alright, .since the fact is that the unions spent a lot of the few years arguing that costs should not be the only factor because that would drive down their members terms and conditions and they even wanted something like a quality aspect to be part of the competition.

If it turns out to be true that they did score better on cost grounds (which is by no means certain) it would have been a spectacular own goal by the unions in the same way that the non TUPE of staff effectively means that Go Ahead will be able to offer lower terms and conditions than they otherwise might have.

Dublin Bus employees have been given the guarantee they do not have to move, however if they choose to move TUPE would apply, if the unions had any sense they would be canvassing employees to make the move.

dfx- · 11-08-2017 1:55pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If anything it's a good thing the decision wasn't made to grant it to the lowest bidder. It just completely throws out the union argument from the start of the process.

PS - I know I shouldn't feed the troll!

Throughout the thread prior to the independent's news report, the idea has been that it's good thing to save money on price compared to now.

The whole idea spouted was this will save money and get best value. Now it's not the lowest bidder if it turns out to be have been DB which was not part of the plan at all at all.

LeinsterDub · 11-08-2017 1:56pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sorry if covered, hard to keep track but:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/blow-for-dublin-bus-as-uk-firm-wins-contract-for-24-routes-in-capital-36021211.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/questions-remain-on-why-services-were-outsourced-36021212.html

The fact that Dublin Bus won on price, but lost on technical or quality issues, is in itself interesting. The contract was not awarded solely on the basis of cost, but also on the ability to deliver services....... but the most recent performance reports suggest it is exceeding all its targets. The fact the NTA doesn't believe it measures up should be a cause for concern. Just what does the department or NTA want from the company?

A failure to win not on cost does raise massive questions. How can the NTA justify giving the routes to GA if by their own metrics DB are exceeding the targets the NTA have themselves set for them?

devnull · 11-08-2017 2:06pm

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Dublin Bus employees have been given the guarantee they do not have to move, however if they choose to move TUPE would apply, if the unions had any sense they would be canvassing employees to make the move.

But at the end of the day the unions have spent the best part of the last few years arguing that they should not have to move under any circumstances and it delayed the awarding of this tender by a long time whilst that was all worked out, if they turn their back on that now they've basically made the whole process take longer and cost more to conduct simply to backtrack when it doesn't go their way.

All this from a service that is supposed to be run for the benefit of the public, which we have to be realistic, at the end of the day the staff there will back whichever horse gives them the greater reward, consistency of their argument doesn't matter it seems as long as they don't lose out.

At the end of the day the public have to come first before any internal politics.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

AFAIK there is or will be a sectoral employment order so presumably they will have to meet the rates in that whatever they are.

I know the unions were asking for this but I have seen nothing that suggests it is going to happen, although if you can find something to confirm that it will be happening from the relevant authorities who would be responsible for that it would be useful to settle this point.

dfx- wrote: »

Throughout the thread prior to the independent's news report, the idea has been that it's good thing to save money on price compared to now.

The union spent the last number of years arguing that the bid should not solely be based upon cost and should include an element of quality of service, they appear to have got that, which may, if you believe the speculation in the press which is extremely vague, ironically have cost them the tender.

If that is the case it's a spectacular own goal.

devnull · 11-08-2017 2:12pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/questions-remain-on-why-services-were-outsourced-36021212.html

A failure to win not on cost does raise massive questions. How can the NTA justify giving the routes to GA if by their own metrics DB are exceeding the targets the NTA have themselves set for them?

I don't know, the writer in that article starts off his piece about this fact claiming it is what he understands, honestly I was always taught in professional writing in my studies that you only use the term "understands" when you are not 100% sure on something but you think it is true but not certain.

At the end of the day if Dublin Bus feel there is reason to believe that it was unfair there are avenues open to them to dispute the tender, but we haven't seen any indication that they are going to do so as of yet.

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2017 2:14pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/questions-remain-on-why-services-were-outsourced-36021212.html

A failure to win not on cost does raise massive questions. How can the NTA justify giving the routes to GA if by their own metrics DB are exceeding the targets the NTA have themselves set for them?

On the surface, it does sound more like it was awarded to "anyone-BUT-DB" to save face after all the pomp and ceremony alright.

If GA decide to pull out, or the tender falls through for another reason, it'll be hard to justify letting DB carry on regardless.

Or not.. this is Ireland after all, where things like this cause a stir in the media for a day or two and then it's all forgotten.

end of the road · 11-08-2017 2:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

Services which Dublin Bus are currently paid to operate, and looked for more money than GoAhead to operate in the future.

You do not understand this tender process at all.

he does understand it.

devnull wrote: »

there is a body that is going to stand up for the public transport users in this country

like they are doing for the rail users, especially in co wexford?

devnull wrote: »

And if Dublin Bus won the contract they would also have been insulated from government cut backs and drops in passenger numbers on the routes in the tender because of the fact they would have signed the same contract too.

The tender is a first tender based on a new contracting system, whenever a contracting system is changed there will always be people who are on legacy deals until they expire and are changed over to the new system.

But there's an easy way to resolve that - simply tender everything on the same basis as soon as possible to get rid of every single legacy contract that you claim is unfair on DB - doubt they'll agree to that though.

Dublin Bus have used the old system to their advantage for donkeys years and never kicked up a fuss until now, unfortunately things change from time to time and some people lose and some people gain, however at the end of the day the public gain from this and the public are the whole point of public services. It is great that we are now moving from an operator/staff focused public service to one that focuses on the public.

we don't know yet that we will have an operator that focuses on the public, as they aren't operating yet. dublin bus aren't focused on the staff either.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Is astounding to read the excuses and goal post shifting on this thread as to why this will fail.

I am half waiting for one of them to say only DB have the special magical powers to operate bus services. Reminds me of the months leading up to the Luas opening.

I will make the prediction before I am banned. The new operator will double passenger numbers on these routes and it is precisely this success which terrifies CIE unions and their groupies.

it will be down to the NTA if passenger numbers increase and not the operator. the NTA are making all the decisians and paying for everything. the operator is paying for the staff and maintaining the busses. such increases will happen whoever operates as increased service frequency attends to attract increased numbers.

devnull · 11-08-2017 2:27pm

It's a long read but here is the specification of the service that Dublin Bus should deliver under their contract with DB:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dublin_Bus_Direct_Award_Contract_Schedules_Amended_03-2017_Website.pdf

There are many things that Dublin Bus are required to adhere to, not all of them are considered performance data but still would be relevant to providing a quality service that the NTA would expect.
-

dublinman1990 · 11-08-2017 2:39pm

When people are talking about the old tramyard at Newtown Avenue in Blackrock on this thread. I heard months ago on boards that this site in Blackrock already has plans for a proposed new housing development to be built there instead of being used a proposed outstation for Go-Ahead. I do recall that there is a larger housing plan proposed for the Daughters of Charity site on Temple Road nearby.

The bus routes that were tendered out couldn't possibly be run by Dublin Bus in an cost efficient way because they are contracted to run the 3 BRT routes from the NTA. I would have thought that Dublin Bus were under a lot of pressure to cater for the tendered routes if they had the decision granted from the NTA to run them again as they wish. It does appear that the supposed number of vehicles being freed up would be a big advantage to Dublin Bus & to the public to be used for route expansion through the BusConnects consultation.

The 125 buses that were highlighted by Go-Ahead in their press release; if that figure was the same for Dublin Bus, where will they allocate them when they lost the tendered routes; will it be for regular bus routes or BRT routes? Were Dublin Bus going under the process of ordering more buses for BRT services under BusConnects.

Also what will happen to the new timetables for the new Go-Ahead routes; will they be guaranteed to run 7 days a week on all of them with an improved Sunday service for some services that do not run on Sundays at all?

About the fares for Go-Ahead; how will the NTA charge their fares for customers using the Go-Ahead routes. It just wouldn't be possible to use the Stage Fare system like Dublin Bus is using now as they are switching to a flat fare system under BusConnects. I suppose a flat fare on the Leap Card will be suitable for both Go-Ahead & Dublin Bus services. I would say that the Leap 90 will be used on Go-Ahead as well as they are running PSO services.

goingnowhere · 11-08-2017 3:09pm

The Blackrock tram shed is still standing. The site is available for short term lease currently.

Planning permission could be interesting but hard to deny as its original purpose was a DUTC tram shed, as things go beyond finding a site up at Sandyford there is little else around (this has the M50 advantage)

Road access into the shed would be straightforward as, but departing is a problem as you have run through Blackrock and loop around via Frasacti to get to the 17 and 84 terminus as a right from the old main street to the main street won't work

dfx- · 11-08-2017 3:10pm

devnull wrote: »

It's a long read but here is the specification of the service that Dublin Bus should deliver under their contract with DB:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dublin_Bus_Direct_Award_Contract_Schedules_Amended_03-2017_Website.pdf

There are many things that Dublin Bus are required to adhere to, not all of them are considered performance data but still would be relevant to providing a quality service that the NTA would expect.
-

Which ones do you think they are not meeting in terms of orbital services...

markpb · 11-08-2017 3:26pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

On the surface, it does sound more like it was awarded to "anyone-BUT-DB" to save face after all the pomp and ceremony alright.

Based on what?

Dyr · 11-08-2017 3:27pm

devnull wrote: »

It's a long read but here is the specification of the service that Dublin Bus should deliver under their contract with DB:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dublin_Bus_Direct_Award_Contract_Schedules_Amended_03-2017_Website.pdf

There are many things that Dublin Bus are required to adhere to, not all of them are considered performance data but still would be relevant to providing a quality service that the NTA would expect.
-

Great to see that the NTA made sure that Dublin bus were held to all this :rolleyes:

The Operator shall ensure that all Network Buses stop to pick up passengers on passenger
request at each Stop listed for passenger pick up, unless the Network Bus is at its carrying
capacity,
2.1.3 The Operator shall ensure the all Network Buses stop on passenger request at each Stop
listed for passenger set down.
2.1.4 Where a centre passenger door is present, the Operator shall ensure that each time a
passenger seeks to alight at a Stop the centre passenger door is opened by the driver, unless
road safety reasons make it unsafe to do so. Each time a Network Bus is unable to open the
centre passenger door due to road safety reasons, the Operator shall ensure that an on-board
announcement requesting passengers to alight at the front door is made.

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2017 3:28pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Also what will happen to the new timetables for the new Go-Ahead routes; will they be guaranteed to run 7 days a week on all of them with an improved Sunday service for some services that do not run on Sundays at all?

About the fares for Go-Ahead; how will the NTA charge their fares for customers using the Go-Ahead routes. It just wouldn't be possible to use the Stage Fare system like Dublin Bus is using now as they are switching to a flat fare system under BusConnects. I suppose a flat fare on the Leap Card will be suitable for both Go-Ahead & Dublin Bus services. I would say that the Leap 90 will be used on Go-Ahead as well as they are running PSO services.

You've overthinking it I think... by all accounts the plan (and indeed the model being used) is such that the only thing that'll really change is the company logo on the bus.

Everything else... fares, timetables etc will be exactly the same unless the NTA mandate changes.

That's my understanding of it anyway.

devnull · 11-08-2017 3:40pm

Bambi wrote: »

Great to see that the NTA made sure that Dublin bus were held to all this :rolleyes:

2.1.4 Where a centre passenger door is present, the Operator shall ensure that each time a
passenger seeks to alight at a Stop the centre passenger door is opened by the driver, unless
road safety reasons make it unsafe to do so. Each time a Network Bus is unable to open the
centre passenger door due to road safety reasons, the Operator shall ensure that an on-board
announcement requesting passengers to alight at the front door is made.

Dublin Bus have signed a contract with with the NTA to get funding from the taxpayer to operate services in conjunction with the terms specified in the schedule and direct award contract that has been outlined.

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2017 3:40pm

markpb wrote: »

Based on what?

From the article...

The fact that Dublin Bus won on price, but lost on technical or quality issues, is in itself interesting. The contract was not awarded solely on the basis of cost, but also on the ability to deliver services.

Given that the State owns Dublin Bus, which is also overseen by the NTA, it appears to be the case that it simply couldn't measure up to the private sector. The company has undergone a number of changes over recent years, including a dramatic cut in its Government subvention, but the most recent performance reports suggest it is exceeding all its targets. The fact the NTA doesn't believe it measures up should be a cause for concern. Just what does the department or NTA want from the company? Clarity is needed.

So as LeinsterDub says, if DB is currently exceeding all its targets and offered a better price, then logically you'd think they should have won the tender given they already have the staff/vehicles and experience in place as well.

But after the hype and prolonged time frame around this whole tendering process, it MAY (speculation) have been thought that it would look bad to have wasted the time/money only to award it to the incumbent. Everything in this country is political remember, even things that shouldn't be. Plus FG are well known to be in favour of hiving off and privatising State entities.. again, not saying that's the intent or what happened here, but not beyond the realm of possibility either (before ya dispute that, consider the mess that was the awarding of IW contracts for example).

We'll have to wait and see.. as others have said, no contracts have yet been signed and there's a lot of questions to be answered from an operational perspective (depots, staffing etc) in what is a relatively short time frame so I'd expect this story is still developing in any case.

amcalester · 11-08-2017 3:50pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

From the article...

So as LeinsterDub says, if DB is currently exceeding all its targets and offered a better price, then logically you'd think they should have won the tender given they already have the staff/vehicles and experience in place as well.

But after the hype and prolonged time frame around this whole tendering process, it MAY (speculation) have been thought that it would look bad to have wasted the time/money only to award it to the incumbent. Everything in this country is political remember, even things that shouldn't be. Plus FG are well known to be in favour of hiving off and privatising State entities.. again, not saying that's the intent or what happened here, but not beyond the realm of possibility either (before ya dispute that, consider the mess that was the awarding of IW contracts for example).

We'll have to wait and see.. as others have said, no contracts have yet been signed and there's a lot of questions to be answered from an operational perspective (depots, staffing etc) in what is a relatively short time frame so I'd expect this story is still developing in any case.

The tender isn't scored on what DB are achieving in the real world, it's scored on what was written in the tender.

It's possible, and this is pure conjecture, that DB just wrote a poor tender and lost as a result.

devnull · 11-08-2017 3:52pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

From the article...

The thing is though right at the start of the article the author claims he understands which normally means someone is not 100% sure but they think that they are right, nobody who has total confidence in their statement uses the term "understands" they simply say it is.

So as LeinsterDub says, if DB is currently exceeding all its targets and offered a better price, then logically you'd think they should have won the tender given they already have the staff/vehicles and experience in place as well.

But we don't know what the 35% quality criteria for the bid was judged on even if what the Indy is reporting is correct, so unless we know that is is impossible to know exactly what they may or may not have scored on the technical aspects of this part of the tender, it's impossible to judge the way someone scored a tender if you don't know what they were even scoring the bidders on.

As I pointed out in the last posts there are a number of the sections of the current contract between Dublin Bus and the National Transport Authority that Dublin Bus appear not be be delivering on and surely any tendering authority worth it's salt will take into account past records of co-operation and delivering in all areas of the contract that the contractor was obliged to do so.

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2017 4:04pm

amcalester wrote: »

The tender isn't scored on what DB are achieving in the real world, it's scored on what was written in the tender.

It's possible, and this is pure conjecture, that DB just wrote a poor tender and lost as a result.

You'd presume though that any decent tender review would also include researching the company and its performance/results elsewhere though?

Certainly (as someone who has managed/does tenders for IT hardware), I'd never take what is essentially just a sales pitch (usually written by someone not in the operations department) at face value without a lot of background research, especially where you're talking about having multiple years of dealing with the company and it's products/services.

You're right though.. we're just speculating. We'll probably never find out the full detail as it'll be deemed "commercially sensitive" information.

dublinman1990 · 11-08-2017 4:18pm

Luckily enough; for some of you posters referencing the old DUTC tramyard at Newtown Avenue in Blackrock.

A developer submitted a planning application 6 months ago on building 9 houses & 42 apartments at the site with 67 underground car parking spaces.

This means that, if this was approved by ABP, any chance of an outstation for Go-Ahead on this site will not be possible due to lack of space.

http://www.ossiansmyth.ie/new-plans-for-the-europa-site-in-blackrock/

Go-Ahead Win 10% of Dublin Bus routes for tender

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