"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

MOH · 25-07-2014 2:50pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

They don't receive transactions until the following day, so the soonest it'll be charged for is 2 days after the auto topup occurred. They don't want to end up having multiple outstanding auto topups going for a user without being paid for. Which would be possible with such a low topup amount as 10euro. Which is mentioned in their T&Cs, granted it needs to be amended. The feature is no longer "coming soon."

May I'm missing something here, but surely if they're worried about topups not being paid, then a 30 euro topup is going to leave them more exposed than, say, two 10 euro topups?

Would switching the minimum time between topups to 3 days instead of a week, while lowering the amount to €10, give them time to collect the money while allowing users to top up a more reasonable amount, with less risk of running out of credit.

L1011 · 25-07-2014 2:53pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

How, if for some reason the user was unable to pay for the direct debit?

For not using a modern payment method, for starters. They system is needlessly limited as a result of their poor design decisions

Your are ignoring that they run the sane risk from fewer but higher amounts anyway so it really is a terrible excuse.

Dravokivich · 25-07-2014 3:10pm

MOH wrote: »

May I'm missing something here, but surely if they're worried about topups not being paid, then a 30 euro topup is going to leave them more exposed than, say, two 10 euro topups?

Would switching the minimum time between topups to 3 days instead of a week, while lowering the amount to €10, give them time to collect the money while allowing users to top up a more reasonable amount, with less risk of running out of credit.

The amount of credit from any one time auto topup occurs isn't the issue. The issue with the lower amount, would be due to the frequency of dropping within the 10euro threshold. They want to limit how often it gets used.

In reference to better to lose 10euro, than 30euro. The T&Cs reference a process whereby the NTA get onto the user for payment by other means for issues with auto topups that haven't been paid for. But they don't want to wait till the second / third / fourth auto topup to be received by a user without being paid.

MYOB wrote: »

For not using a modern payment method, for starters. They system is needlessly limited as a result of their poor design decisions

Your are ignoring that they run the sane risk from fewer but higher amounts anyway so it really is a terrible excuse.

Sure direct debit isn't very modern, but its a popular payment method.

I'm not ignoring their risk either. I'm merely stating they are doing it to limit said risks!

Victor · 25-07-2014 3:41pm

bk wrote: »

Is it really such a big issue if the threshold is crossed every two days?

Leap Card is set up such that you can only auto top-up once per week.

Separately there is the issue of bank fees, while the NTA seems to have a good deal and students will have free transactions, others will be paying 20-40c per transaction.

SandyfordGuy · 25-07-2014 3:50pm

MYOB wrote: »

For not using a modern payment method, for starters. They system is needlessly limited as a result of their poor design decisions

What do you suggest that they do instead?

Bear in mind the limitations of the on bus equipment here.

L1011 · 25-07-2014 3:56pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

What do you suggest that they do instead?

Bear in mind the limitations of the on bus equipment here.

How does allowing multiple topups a week or allowing card payments affect the bus terminals?

Victor · 25-07-2014 4:01pm

MYOB wrote: »

How does allowing multiple topups a week or allowing card payments affect the bus terminals?

They would need to store three times as many auto top-up transactions. Storage space is already critical.

L1011 · 25-07-2014 4:04pm

Victor wrote: »

They would need to store three times as many auto top-up transactions. Storage space is already critical.

They're read daily. Not weekly. So why a week interval? A minimum amount of more than the day cap is unjustified too, same reason.

If.the.minor increase on overall records per day is what kills them, I can see the system failing completely come September.

Victor · 25-07-2014 4:16pm

MYOB wrote: »

They're read daily. Not weekly. So why a week interval? A minimum amount of more than the day cap is unjustified too, same reason.

The day-week is a balance they struck.

If.the.minor increase on overall records per day is what kills them, I can see the system failing completely come September.

The system is already critical. Hence, when a cash transaction is made and then a Leap Card one, the driver's terminal needs to reload the Leap Card software for the second transaction.

L1011 · 25-07-2014 5:25pm

Victor wrote: »

The day-week is a balance they struck.

The system is already critical. Hence, when a cash transaction is made and then a Leap Card one, the driver's terminal needs to reload the Leap Card software for the second transaction.

Sounds like a bodge rather than a balance.

bk · 26-07-2014 3:45pm

I think everyone is missing the important point.

€30 is simply too much money for the majority of people, so most people won't use it and they will quickly get feed up of constantly topping up in store themselves and quickly revert to cash. Thus negating the whole reason for Leap.

I'm sorry but all these other excuses or just that, excuses and VERY bad ones.

What it sounds to me as a manger of IT projects is that the whole Leap project is terribly designed. Frankly the project should never been allowed to go ahead without the Dublin Bus ticket machines being first updated.

The Dublin Bus ticket machines are the critical element of the whole project. DB is the number one method of public transport in Dublin, yet it is very clear that the DB ticket machines simply aren't powerful enough to handle the functionality of Leap.

I see absolutely no reason for the once a week €30 top-ups. It should be possible to have €10 top-ups which are processed over night, two days at worst.

Saying people might get increased bank charges is no excuse, you just tell people of this and let people decide how much they want to set themselves. Many people have free charges, people that don't can decide for themselves what to do. At least leave people the options for themselves.

The only valid excuse is that the DB ticket machines aren't capable of handling increased, more frequent auto-topups. But again this comes back to the DB ticket machines not being up to the job and need to be replaced ASAP.

We need a fast ticket machine that can process LEAP very quickly and with a online connection so that they can almost immediately process online top-ups and small amount auto-topups.

In the end the current situation is simply a terrible customer experience and it needs to be fixed if we want Leap to be successful, no excuses.

Mr Simpson · 26-07-2014 3:47pm

Personally, I think it would be better to dump direct debit and set up auto top up from debit or credit cards only.

Aard · 26-07-2014 11:32pm

I'd love to know where the arbitrary figure of 30 euro was plucked from. Much too high.

Fred Swanson · 26-07-2014 11:33pm

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart · 26-07-2014 11:44pm

Aard wrote: »

I'd love to know where the arbitrary figure of 30 euro was plucked from. Much too high.

At the outset of Leapcard it was €40 !!!!!!!! :mad:

AlekSmart · 26-07-2014 11:53pm

bk wrote: »

What it sounds to me as a manger of IT projects is that the whole Leap project is terribly designed. Frankly the project should never been allowed to go ahead without the Dublin Bus ticket machines being first updated.

The Dublin Bus ticket machines are the critical element of the whole project. DB is the number one method of public transport in Dublin, yet it is very clear that the DB ticket machines simply aren't powerful enough to handle the functionality of Leap.

The only valid excuse is that the DB ticket machines aren't capable of handling increased, more frequent auto-topups. But again this comes back to the DB ticket machines not being up to the job and need to be replaced ASAP.

We need a fast ticket machine that can process LEAP very quickly and with a online connection so that they can almost immediately process online top-ups and small amount auto-topups.

In the end the current situation is simply a terrible customer experience and it needs to be fixed if we want Leap to be successful, no excuses.

BK has it in one...12 years and €40 Million ago,the decisions were fluffed...kicked for touch...left for somebody else to sort out....Well,WE are that "Somebody Else" as the originators of this nonsense are by and large now on the Pínsin.

Oddly enough,the Auto Top-Up issue is no biggie for the BAC Machines,as once enabled,the relevant DD instruction cannot be altered and as it is stored on the Leapcard as a simple "prompt" the Wayfarer has nothing really to do except to respond to the pre-arranged trigger.

The main and continuing issue with Wayfafer/Leapcrad is the ongoing requirement to store and transfer constantly between Cash/ITS modes...they are both essentially different and present the Wayfarer with endless opportunities to Bug-Out.

We need to choose NOW where we are going with this,either retain Cash or go ITS...we cannot do both :mad:

steveblack · 27-07-2014 12:19am

I'm a dublin bus driver, there is a man in the depot who's job is to look after the ticket machines. One morning 6am i'm getting my bus ready, he gets on and is replacing a malfunctioning ticket machine (problem reported the night before). In friendly conversation i say these ticket machines are terrible, He looks up at me with a disgusted face and says they are "pieces of Sxxt, they have my heart broken." He then tells me they are generations out of date and have been replaced practically everywhere they were in use. He then tells me a tale of woe about the machines that would have went on for the rest of the morning only i had to leave and go to work.
Bottom line the ticket machines need to be replaced, they are not up to the job.
Another thing, they are loosing money, the ticket is presented on the drivers validator. Driver presses button, green light and beep. Passenger walks away, half way upstairs ,it comes up on ticket machine transaction incomplete. No fare has been deducted from card.
The NTA have a lot to answers for, Millions spent on equipment that ultimately does not work.

Victor · 27-07-2014 12:36am

Aard wrote: »

I'd love to know where the arbitrary figure of 30 euro was plucked from. Much too high.

I suspect because it is a bit more than the weekly cap for most people (Not adult Irish Rail users or adult multi-mode users).

LeinsterDub · 28-07-2014 12:00pm

steveblack wrote: »

The NTA have a lot to answers for, Millions spent on equipment that ultimately does not work.

Wasn't the equipment purchased by DB before the NTA existed?

AlekSmart · 28-07-2014 1:44pm

It is looking like the NTA have finally realized that they have a problem with the Leapcard numbers.....the adult take-up has largely stalled,and with the numbers of empty Leapcards now steadily increasing,some other means is required...and here it is...directed straight at the "Scholar" 16 to 18 year old market and offering a VERY attractive option to save money.

It will indeed be interesting to see just how many of our young,educated 2nd-3rd Level youths will continue to pay ADULT fares at 16,when they could be paying CHILD Leapfares at 17....this process will be a more accurate indicator of our educational standards than any Leaving Certificate !

http://childleapcard.ie/

This approach is fantastic,however belated it may be....This really should have been Number ONE on the list of Leapcard's original introduction......:p

And now....what to do about the Adults.....

LeinsterDub · 28-07-2014 1:49pm

Awe the joy of the fair structure , 3 different child fair rates

AlekSmart · 28-07-2014 2:28pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Awe the joy of the fair structure , 3 different child fair rates

Nope..there should be only one fare...the Cheapest !

This latest development gives a 16 year old the choice of paying €3.05 and being an Adult...OR...getting a Scholar Leapcard and paying €1.15.

Lets see how many will make that choice ?

SteM · 28-07-2014 2:55pm

Is it possible for them to introduce a T90 style fare using the Leap cards or is this not technically possible does anyone know?

AlekSmart · 28-07-2014 3:07pm

SteM wrote: »

Is it possible for them to introduce a T90 style fare using the Leap cards or is this not technically possible does anyone know?

It's "Imminent" on Leapcard,and will be known as a "Transfer Rebate" or somesuch...essentially if you transfer to another bus within a certain timeframe (90 Min ?) you'll either not be charged OR recieve a rebate dpending on your journey....

Coming Soon......;)

Fred Swanson · 28-07-2014 3:34pm

This post has been deleted.

Tow · 28-07-2014 4:01pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If lucky... Maybe Wayfarer they will finish off their stock of 386s by then and Dublin Bus will upgrade to new machines with a bit more horsepower.

LeinsterDub · 28-07-2014 4:48pm

Tow wrote: »

If lucky... Maybe Wayfarer they will finish off their stock of 386s by then and Dublin Bus will upgrade to new machines with a bit more horsepower.

Can't wait.

AlekSmart · 28-07-2014 5:04pm

Tow wrote: »

If lucky... Maybe Wayfarer they will finish off their stock of 386s by then and Dublin Bus will upgrade to new machines with a bit more horsepower.

Well Tow...you might just be onto something there....

http://jonwilliams.org/wordpress/2013/07/30/parkeon-wayfarer-tgx150-ticket-machine-wireless-lan-issues/

This bit particularly interests me.......

After some frustration I eventually discovered that some (all?) TGX150 ticket machines are equipped with US and not EU wireless chipsets which means they only work with channels 1-11 and not 1-13 as one would expect in the UK.

....surely not the case here....

KD345 · 28-07-2014 7:04pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is looking like the NTA have finally realized that they have a problem with the Leapcard numbers.....the adult take-up has largely stalled,and with the numbers of empty Leapcards now steadily increasing

Do you have a link to these figures?

AlekSmart · 28-07-2014 11:07pm

KD345 wrote: »

Do you have a link to these figures?

This as about as linky as I can find...but do bear in mind it's a Public Relations inspired Press Release...http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/cheaper-leap-fares-for-16-17-and-18-year-olds-from-august-1st/

Editor Note – Leap Facts

Leap Card launched in December 2011
Over 600,000 cards sold to date
Since launch, customers have used over €100 million travel credit on Leap cards in the Greater Dublin Area taking over 50 million journeys
Since launch of “Tickets” on Leap late last year – ie the Taxsaver Annual and Monthly Tickets and the Dublin Bus Rambler range – there has been €36 million of ticket sales and 7 million journeys with approx. 20% growth each month this year
Over 2,000 Leap Visitor cards (for tourists) sold in 3 weeks (launched June 2014)
The scheme website, www.LeapCard.ie, has had over 1 million hits in the last 12 months
89% of our customers responded positively when asked if they were satisfied with their Leap card

Still proving somewhat difficult to get figures for the number of Leapcards "sold" which are not Topped up when the initial credit expires.

But 8.9 out of 10 Cats say they prefer Leapcard,so it's grand Ted,just Grand....;)

KD345 · 28-07-2014 11:36pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

This as about as linky as I can find...but do bear in mind it's a Public Relations inspired Press Release...http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/cheaper-leap-fares-for-16-17-and-18-year-olds-from-august-1st/

Still proving somewhat difficult to get figures for the number of Leapcards "sold" which are not Topped up when the initial credit expires.

But 8.9 out of 10 Cats say they prefer Leapcard,so it's grand Ted,just Grand....;)

Thanks for that. Is 600,000 leap cards a bad figure? Surely that's ok considering it's only 3 years old.

How can you tell the uptake has slowed and there is an increase in cards not being topped up?

For many people, the leap card is something they use occasionally, such as popping into town on a Saturday etc. and may be topped up every few months. For others, it's part of their everyday use for commuting. I'm one of those people, but I have never topped up my card. I don't need to, as it's loaded with an annual ticket. I guess Leap has changed dramatically since it's launch, and will continue to evolve further. Where once it was centred around topping up, it's now just a travel card for thousands of people.

I think the introduction of the teenage Leap card is a positive move. Firstly, it gets young commuters used to using the card. It shows the benefits of avoiding cash, and that will hopefully continue when they move onto college or migrate to an adult leap card. Secondly, it addresses the vague fare structure which was in place for teenagers. I believe there is lots more to be done in this area, but this is a start.

AlekSmart · 29-07-2014 12:08am

KD345 wrote: »

Thanks for that. Is 600,000 leap cards a bad figure? Surely that's ok considering it's only 3 years old.

How can you tell the uptake has slowed and there is an increase in cards not being topped up?

I think the introduction of the teenage Leap card is a positive move. Firstly, it gets young commuters used to using the card. It shows the benefits of avoiding cash, and that will hopefully continue when they move onto college or migrate to an adult leap card. Secondly, it addresses the vague fare structure which was in place for teenagers. I believe there is lots more to be done in this area, but this is a start.

I am referring ONLY to ITS Purse enabled Leapcards,as the period ticket holders are outside of this particular discussion.

The core issue for me is the continuing high rate of Cash Fare payment when Leapcard offers c.20% discount...WTF

In the absence of statistics I am extrapolating from my daily experience,whereby I tend to ask Cash Fare payers if they are aware of/would consider using Leapcard.

I was initially suprised when a signifigant amount of those people would say....." I have one but.....etc etc "

What really surprises me however is the ongoing prevalence of such people,with some actually showing me the Leapcard and laughing...

Therefore,I would agree with the decision of the NTA to focus instead on the "Youth" market,as the compliant Public Transport users already have switched to Leapcard.

This now leaves the NTA with a decidedly entrenched Cash Paying sector who will need either gentle persuasion or force in order to effect the significant Jump in usership which the ITS project still requires.

And yes,after 12 years and €40 Million ITS expenditure,I consider 600,000 to be only a fair to middling return on the outlay.:(

Tow · 29-07-2014 9:44am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well Tow...you might just be onto something there....

http://jonwilliams.org/wordpress/2013/07/30/parkeon-wayfarer-tgx150-ticket-machine-wireless-lan-issues/

This bit particularly interests me...........surely not the case here....

This would be a firmware issue on the WiFi module, rather than the actual physical limitation on the chips.

ArmaniJeanss · 29-07-2014 10:10am

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is looking like the NTA have finally realized that they have a problem with the Leapcard numbers.....the adult take-up has largely stalled,and with the numbers of empty Leapcards now steadily increasing,some other means is required...and here it is...directed straight at the "Scholar" 16 to 18 year old market and offering a VERY attractive option to save money.

It will indeed be interesting to see just how many of our young,educated 2nd-3rd Level youths will continue to pay ADULT fares at 16,when they could be paying CHILD Leapfares at 17....this process will be a more accurate indicator of our educational standards than any Leaving Certificate !

http://childleapcard.ie/

This approach is fantastic,however belated it may be....This really should have been Number ONE on the list of Leapcard's original introduction......:p

And now....what to do about the Adults.....

This is great news, sadly a few weeks too late for me as I had my 17yearold niece staying with me last month whilst working in Dublin and paying fares with an adult leap card.
Also should point out that the small print seems to imply that the 16-18 card is actually valid until 18 years and 364 days, which is even better.

As an aside when I asked about this last year and questioned the farcical age cutoffs I was told by a few of the usual crew here how 16 was apparently a perfectly fair age for a school goer to suddenly be launched into the world of paying adult fares.
Thankfully wiser heads have prevailed.

Dravokivich · 29-07-2014 10:16am

well, 16/17/18 year olds still pay school fares when travelling to/from school. There was just no means for them to do so with a leap card. I'd expect that this is a result of complaints about that.

AlekSmart · 29-07-2014 12:00pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is great news, sadly a few weeks too late for me as I had my 17yearold niece staying with me last month whilst working in Dublin and paying fares with an adult leap card.

Also should point out that the small print seems to imply that the 16-18 card is actually valid until 18 years and 364 days, which is even better.

As an aside when I asked about this last year and questioned the farcical age cutoffs I was told by a few of the usual crew here how 16 was apparently a perfectly fair age for a school goer to suddenly be launched into the world of paying adult fares.
Thankfully wiser heads have prevailed.

Yep,the new Child Leap (Registered) is valid up until the 19th Birthday

Whether or not the 16 cut-off is farcical or not,that was/is the situation,always remembering that the entire Child Fare element is CONCESSIONARY,and nowhere enshrined in any regulations.

Of equal interest is that the 16 = Adult Fare situation remains in place for CASH-FARE Customers,which will be a very interesting study in....well...something relating to youth culture in the 21st Century

MOH · 29-07-2014 12:06pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

T

But 8.9 out of 10 Cats say they prefer Leapcard,so it's grand Ted,just Grand....;)

Plus that's an utterly meaningless statistic.
Well, more of an outright lie considering the way it's phrased indicates that at least 89% of all Leap card customers were asked about the card.

AlekSmart · 29-07-2014 12:10pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

well, 16/17/18 year olds still pay school fares when travelling to/from school. There was just no means for them to do so with a leap card. I'd expect that this is a result of complaints about that.

I understand,Dravokivich,that Marketing analysis and segmentation played a significant part in the new Child Leapcard introduction.

Such a Card was always included in the menu of "pending" developments.

The intention however,is to ensure that usage of Leapcard begins in a structured manner much earlier than heretofore,and targetting the "brightest & best" of our population is a VERY effective piece of marketing.

Child & Schoolchild Cash Fares remain at a stubbornly high level,which if extrapolated into adulthood would see Leapcard's penetration curve remaining flat,rather than rocketing ahead,as required to ensure the products commercial survival.

Get the Lepcard into a young persons hand BEFORE they accquire a Learner Permit and begin Driving Lessons,and you have a chance of retaining a Public Transport user,rather than see that person sit themselves into a nice little motor forever.

Add in the significant extra time,cost and application now required to obtain a Full Driving Licence,and a certain thought-process begins to emerge.....It remains to be seen whether it will succeed ?

Dravokivich · 29-07-2014 12:25pm

They already had leap cards for kids upto 16. All they are doing is re-launching them and changing the age range on the 2 types of cards to accommodate older school fare users. Otherwise, they would have brought out another card, without changing the 2 already in place.

It should never had needed to come to this though.

AlekSmart · 29-07-2014 1:16pm

Tow wrote: »

This would be a firmware issue on the WiFi module, rather than the actual physical limitation on the chips.

Phew ..thanks for that Tow...for a horrible moment I thought you writ ecumenical issue...!!!! :eek:

vickers209 · 29-07-2014 3:10pm

Quick question for anyone who tops up online, whats the quickest that you have loaded the card at a tag on point after topping up online.
it says it can take up too 48 hours reading it online

but if i top up online head to the dart station half hour later will it work?

Fred Swanson · 29-07-2014 3:13pm

This post has been deleted.

vickers209 · 29-07-2014 4:35pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ya but just wondering does anyone know the average wait time?

Dravokivich · 29-07-2014 4:45pm

Quickest will be overnight if you put in the order before 9pm(-ish).

These kind of things are run as bulk transactions in both directions overnight (For topups to be loaded onto the card / transaction history from the card).

Seaswimmer · 01-08-2014 11:40am

Is there anything to stop a 3rd level student who was 18 last May and starting college in September using a child LEAP (16-18) until her 19th birthday.

ArmaniJeanss · 01-08-2014 11:54am

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Is there anything to stop a 3rd level student who was 18 last May and starting college in September using a child LEAP (16-18) until her 19th birthday.

Seems absolutely fine according to the t&c.

AlekSmart · 01-08-2014 12:27pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Seems absolutely fine according to the t&c.

Thats fine,as long as it is the appropriate type of Child Leap for the age of the bearer...eg,a 17 year old cannot use an anonymous Child Leapcard,now only valid for children between 4 and 15.

Carawaystick · 02-08-2014 1:22am

AlekSmart wrote: »

This as about as linky as I can find...but do bear in mind it's a Public Relations inspired Press Release...http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/cheaper-leap-fares-for-16-17-and-18-year-olds-from-august-1st/

Still proving somewhat difficult to get figures for the number of Leapcards "sold" which are not Topped up when the initial credit expires.

But 8.9 out of 10 Cats say they prefer Leapcard,so it's grand Ted,just Grand....;)

section 1.3 of the leapcard T&Cs says

The Leap Card is and remains the property of the Authority.

so it's hard to say that *any* leapcards have been "sold".

AlekSmart · 02-08-2014 11:56am

Carawaystick wrote: »

section 1.3 of the leapcard T&Cs says

The Leap Card is and remains the property of the Authority.

so it's hard to say that *any* leapcards have been "sold".

Hard to beat the oul " "

Statistics just adore a good massage.

loyatemu · 03-08-2014 12:21pm

If I get on a Dublin Bus with my kids, can I pay for them all with my leap card (I know I can pay for additional adult passengers but its not clear if you can do the same for children)?

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Comments