Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Eircode Anomolies

Options
1234568

Comments

  • Options
    #212
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Impetus wrote: »
    Crime has moved from physical breaking in to premises to online crime. This is where postcodes are a weak link in the chain in terms of database joins etc.

    How so? Since any database with an Eircode is also likely to store a full address and occupier surname.


  • Options
    #213
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    My UK mobile phone number is 07XXX 123456. I have no idea of my next door neighbour's mobile phone number. What is your point? That people don't know their neighbour's Eircodes? So what? :rolleyes: If you'd sent me the email, I'd have recognised both as Eircodes. Likewise if I'd sent it to you. Your neighbour didn't click that the information was Eircodes? Big fúcking deal.

    Why do you have a GB phone number? Do you also work for Capita and/or GCHQ? Or do you not live in IRL? Or both?


  • Options
    #214
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    TheChizler wrote: »
    How so? Since any database with an Eircode is also likely to store a full address.

    Yes. But it is much easier to match two postcodes, than to match two addresses which are typically inconsistent when comparing one to another. And if you have a file of stolen payment card details, and a file of shopping patterns or some other data, it is far easier to link them if the country in question uses a household unique postcode.


  • Options
    #215
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Impetus wrote: »
    Why do you have a GB phone number? Do you also work for Capita and/or GCHQ? Or do you not live in IRL? Or both?
    Ad hominem responses aren't really improving your position.


  • Options
    #216
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Ad hominem responses aren't really improving your position.

    I am not attacking the person. I am attacking the point from where s/he comes. At a guess s/he has grown up with the GB postcode system, which is obsolete because it was designed when 4k of memory cost zillions. The eircode is 20 times worse then the British postcode, because

    1) It resolves to one household (privacy) - GB = circa 20 houses
    2) Large routing key (hard for humans to say roughly where a person/company lives - aside from Dublin postal area).
    3) Is alpha numeric like the GB system - 99% of other countries use all numeric codes, which are far more machine readable, and keyboard friendly (eg at a point of sale). Japan has a 7 digit numeric postcode which offers machine and user friendliness and gets over the Kanji writing which most of us Europeans and non-Japanese can't read.
    4) Similarly people from Japan, China, Korea, and the Maghreb can't read or write Eircodes or British postcodes unless they can read/write an European language.
    5) The address structure does not fit in with the rest of the EU's address structure - which is

    Name of person/company
    Bld number / name of street etc
    00000 to 99999 town name

    Modern automated mail sorting causes the address to be recognised at the first sorting office, and it sends details of the full address to the destination and intermediate points. To do this with a minimum of human intervention requires standardisation of layout. Human intervention leads to delay and adds to cost.

    Ireland's super long, unstructured addresses won't fit in databases used in other countries - because of field name sizes and types and positioning.

    Ireland is a small country in the scheme of things, and can't expect the rest of the world/technology to take Eircode on board. DHL won't, and have been honest enough to admit same. Others will have the same motivation.

    I could go on...... but the Eircode is the wrong way to do it for a zillion reasons.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #217
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Impetus wrote: »

    4) Similarly people from Japan, China, Korea, and the Maghreb can't read or write Eircodes or British postcodes unless they can read/write an European language.

    Companies in Japan, China, Korea, and the Maghreb have these things called computers and printers. You type your address into a from on a website and they print out the address label. No reading or writing even comes into it.


  • Options
    #218
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    Impetus wrote: »
    Yes. But it is much easier to match two postcodes, than to match two addresses which are typically inconsistent when comparing one to another. And if you have a file of stolen payment card details, and a file of shopping patterns or some other data, it is far easier to link them if the country in question uses a household unique postcode.

    So now your thieves are hacking multiple databases :cool: how does it work? They see a 2015 Ferrari driving into 13 Lake Geneva Boulevard and they feverishly memorise the registration number. Back in their hideway, they hack into multiple databases including the vehicle registration file. Having established his wealth and identified his postcode they then are stumped because the postcode relates to more than one address point. Wonderful.


  • Options
    #219
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    What is the obsession with making it hierarchical? Why does it need to be hierarchical? Companies that want to group Eircodes can do so in any way they wish, for any legal purpose they wish, without any need for it to be hierarchical. Computer databases render hierarchical postcodes redundant.
    It's not an obsession, and computer databases do not render hierarchical postcodes redundant. If you believe that you have simply bought into the rent-seeking idea that all data has to be obfuscated where you must then pay to make sense of it.

    The simplest example is a taxi firm or take-away delivery company. They can tell where you live down to a square mile or two by just looking at a hierarchical postcode. Whereas, if your Eircode starts with say H91, you could live anywhere from South Mayo to North Clare. There is no other freely available information in those Eircodes which tell where you live. That is no use for delivery type businesses.

    What you seem to have bought into here, is that software is the solution to this problem. But, why create the problem in the first place and force people to buy software as a solution to a problem we shouldn't have. Addresses used by An Post are hierarchical. Nobody would accept randomised addresses. So, why accept randomised postcodes?


  • Options
    #220
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Impetus wrote: »
    Crime has moved from physical breaking in to premises to online crime. This is where postcodes are a weak link in the chain in terms of database joins etc.

    Is there some database maintained by a luxury goods company that only includes customer names and (non-unique) postcodes? Got any real world examples rather than credulity-straining hypotheticals?


  • Options
    #221
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Impetus wrote: »
    Why do you have a GB phone number? Do you also work for Capita and/or GCHQ? Or do you not live in IRL? Or both?

    No, I work for the infamous MI3. And I live in your attic. :D

























































































    I live in England. I don't work for Capita or GCHQ. I work for myself - I sell stuff at markets, like this one:

    http://www.tynemouthmarkets.com/


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #222
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Impetus wrote: »
    At a guess s/he has grown up with the GB postcode system

    I didn't grow up with the GB postcode system. I grew up in Cork with no postcodes at all lah!

    You're very good at jumping to assumptions based on scant information.


  • Options
    #223
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Impetus wrote: »
    I just ask myself, if you are an ordinary citizen with no vested interest in Eircode, what motivates you to post something like this?

    Because we're nerds man!

    Jesus, is that not fecking obvious?

    It would be a bit fecking stupid of posters who disagree with you asking if you had a vested interest in the Swiss postal address system, don't you think?
    Impetus wrote: »
    As an aside there is no street in the Swiss address database called "Lake Geneva Boulevard". It sounds like something in Florida or some other US state where they copy European place names big time.

    Is there any sense of humour or ability not to take everything literally in the Swiss address database? :P


  • Options
    #224
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    plodder wrote: »
    It's not an obsession, and computer databases do not render hierarchical postcodes redundant. If you believe that you have simply bought into the rent-seeking idea that all data has to be obfuscated where you must then pay to make sense of it.

    The simplest example is a taxi firm or take-away delivery company. They can tell where you live down to a square mile or two by just looking at a hierarchical postcode. Whereas, if your Eircode starts with say H91, you could live anywhere from South Mayo to North Clare. There is no other freely available information in those Eircodes which tell where you live. That is no use for delivery type businesses.

    What you seem to have bought into here, is that software is the solution to this problem. But, why create the problem in the first place and force people to buy software as a solution to a problem we shouldn't have. Addresses used by An Post are hierarchical. Nobody would accept randomised addresses. So, why accept randomised postcodes?

    There is freely available information. I can look up as many Eircodes as I like on the Eircode Finder website, without any daily limit, by using the free Chrome extension that overrides the daily lookup limit. Just do a google.ie search for free Chrome extension Eircode finder and you'll find it. Glad to be of help!

    And being able to tell where I live within a 'square mile or two' (could be considerably larger in rural areas) is not much good to a taxi company or to a pizza delivery company or to a customer who's waiting for a taxi or a pizza.

    'Hello, where's my pizza? I ordered it an hour ago.' 'We left it at that pub about a mile down the road from you. Collect it whenever's handy for you. Goodnight.'


  • Options
    #225
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    There is freely available information. I can look up as many Eircodes as I like on the Eircode Finder website, without any daily limit, by using the free Chrome extension that overrides the daily lookup limit. Just do a google.ie search for free Chrome extension Eircode finder and you'll find it. Glad to be of help!
    Yes, but that is breaking the terms of the license that Eircode provides the information under, which is not a solution for businesses or organisations that want to operate legally.
    And being able to tell where I live within a 'square mile or two' (could be considerably larger in rural areas) is not much good to a taxi company or to a pizza delivery company or to a customer who's waiting for a taxi or a pizza.

    'Hello, where's my pizza? I ordered it an hour ago.' 'We left it at that pub about a mile down the road from you. Collect it whenever's handy for you. Goodnight.'
    But, the value of a hierarchical postcode is not for delivery. It's for routing. If you are delivering 30 pizzas, you want to be able to group them according to the small delivery area by just looking at the postcode. You might then give them to different drivers who then use a satnav for finding the exact location of each.


  • Options
    #226
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    clewbays wrote: »
    So now your thieves are hacking multiple databases :cool: how does it work? They see a 2015 Ferrari driving into 13 Lake Geneva Boulevard and they feverishly memorise the registration number. Back in their hideway, they hack into multiple databases including the vehicle registration file. Having established his wealth and identified his postcode they then are stumped because the postcode relates to more than one address point. Wonderful.

    No wonder crime rates are so low in Switzerland! Nobody can figure out where all the loot is! :D


  • Options
    #227
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Impetus wrote: »
    I am not attacking the person. I am attacking the point from where s/he comes. At a guess s/he has grown up with the GB postcode system, which is obsolete because it was designed when 4k of memory cost zillions. The eircode is 20 times worse then the British postcode, because

    1) It resolves to one household (privacy) - GB = circa 20 houses
    2) Large routing key (hard for humans to say roughly where a person/company lives - aside from Dublin postal area).
    3) Is alpha numeric like the GB system - 99% of other countries use all numeric codes, which are far more machine readable, and keyboard friendly (eg at a point of sale). Japan has a 7 digit numeric postcode which offers machine and user friendliness and gets over the Kanji writing which most of us Europeans and non-Japanese can't read.
    4) Similarly people from Japan, China, Korea, and the Maghreb can't read or write Eircodes or British postcodes unless they can read/write an European language.
    5) The address structure does not fit in with the rest of the EU's address structure - which is

    Name of person/company
    Bld number / name of street etc
    00000 to 99999 town name

    Modern automated mail sorting causes the address to be recognised at the first sorting office, and it sends details of the full address to the destination and intermediate points. To do this with a minimum of human intervention requires standardisation of layout. Human intervention leads to delay and adds to cost.

    Ireland's super long, unstructured addresses won't fit in databases used in other countries - because of field name sizes and types and positioning.

    Ireland is a small country in the scheme of things, and can't expect the rest of the world/technology to take Eircode on board. DHL won't, and have been honest enough to admit same. Others will have the same motivation.

    I could go on...... but the Eircode is the wrong way to do it for a zillion reasons.

    If you don't want to send a piece of mail with a full Irish address on it, just send it with the Eircode alone on it. It's going to be 7 characters on one line, shorter than any address system used in any other country in the world.

    It seems to me that your main gripe about Eircode is that it Irish addresses don't fit into some imaginary European address norm that you've invented in your head.

    Ever seen a Spanish apartment address?
    How addresses work in Spain, very confusing!
    So, when I got the email confirming where I would live in Málaga, it was full of signs, letters and number that didn't make much sense to me.

    In Norway a typical address of a flat looks like this:

    Street number 00, apartment number
    0000 City

    That's it.

    My new address in Spain would be this:

    c/ Pedro XXXXX, 5 – esc. 3 – 4º B
    29007 Málaga

    Whaaaat? What's the "C/" about? And "5-esc. 3 - 4- dot up there that I don't even know how to write, and B"?

    Well, I just gave the paper to the taxi driver at the airport thank God, he understood it and helped me ring the right bell.

    So, after some time I finally understood how it works.

    The C/ is simply short for calle (street). Good. And then the street name clearly.
    The 5 is the number of the street.
    Esc. is short for escalera (staircase) then number 3 is the number of the staircase, and this is where it gets confusing. One same building can have different sections, meaning you need to choose the right stairs or lift to get to the right flat. So the second day in the bulding when I chose the first and best stairs I found I ended up trying to use my key in the wrong door. Luckily the person living behind the door I was trying to open (...) oould explain me in Spanglish that I needed to go back down to the entrance and try another staircase. Puzzled I went back down and wasn't sure what to do, but after walking a bit back and forth I found a little sign pointing me to escalera 3. See, the day I arrived, Brad came down to pick me up since I didn't have keys yet and I didn't pay much attention to where we were going.
    4º with the dot up there means 4th floor
    B means door B on 4th floor
    Ah, as if this wasn't enough. the C/ can be replaced with other abbreviations.
    If it's not a Calle, it can be Avenida, (avenue) which would be abbreviated to Avda.
    It can be Plaza, (square) which would be abbreviated to Pl.
    And it can be Paseo (boulevard) which would be abbreviated to Pº

    Another abbreviation can be s/n which means sin numero ,without number. Typically an official building.

    Just to complicate matters a liiiiittle more, they don't do it as easy as putting number 1 on first floor, 2 on second etc. No no.
    The ground floor is bajos (abbreviated "bjs") Then comes entresuelo (abbreviated "entlo") for the first floor. Other buildings can use principal (abbreviated "pr" or "pral") for first floor. Then comes the numbers for the following floors, until they again complicate it a little with the last one or two floors, called ático which is the penthouse flat, and some buildings even have a sobreatico, which is on top of the ático and is the top floor.

    Phew!

    http://www.newlifeinspain.com/2011/09/how-addresses-work-in-spain-very.html

    Even that's a simplified version because she's left out the part about Spanish apartment (or office) addresses also frequently including izda. (for izquierda - left) or dcha. (derecha - right) or, less frequently cto. (centro - centre) in the address.

    e.g.

    c/ Pedro XXXXX, 5 – esc. 3 – 4º B izda.
    29007 Málaga

    You get the floor level and the right/left/centre element in Scottish addresses too.

    e.g.

    Flat 17
    Top Floor Right
    87 High Street
    Edinburgh
    EH1 1AA


  • Options
    #228
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »

    The simplest example is a taxi firm or take-away delivery company. They can tell where you live down to a square mile or two by just looking at a hierarchical postcode. Whereas, if your Eircode starts with say H91, you could live anywhere from South Mayo to North Clare. There is no other freely available information in those Eircodes which tell where you live. That is no use for delivery type businesses.

    Oh really.....no use to take away companies you say? They seem to have access to some sort of "modern technology" that makes a hierarchical code redundant.

    https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/661169507478687745



    They seem to be using some sort of "app" thing they're calling it. But don't worry, I'm sure they'll come to their senses soon enough and go back to having their drivers manually work out routes and destinations on a piece of paper in the van or on their bike, this whole "your orders sequence, route and destination is preloaded on your phones app" thing will never catch on. Sure no one has a smart phone or app's these days. If only we had a damn heirarchical code we could have let them do it manually on paper like it was 1970. Damn it anyway.


  • Options
    #229
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    plodder wrote: »
    Yes, but that is breaking the terms of the license that Eircode provides the information under, which is not a solution for businesses or organisations that want to operate legally.

    Then they can stick to the 50 per day limit, which combined with 15 x 49 (735) results per day from the An Post website, equals 785 free results per day, or 286,525 per year.
    plodder wrote: »
    But, the value of a hierarchical postcode is not for delivery. It's for routing. If you are delivering 30 pizzas, you want to be able to group them according to the small delivery area by just looking at the postcode.You might then give them to different drivers who then use a satnav for finding the exact location of each.

    There's an app for that which works with Eircodes - see post above.

    And as I've already demonstrated on the old Postcodes to be introduced thread, you need a lot more information than just postcodes to be able to group deliveries in the most efficient manner.


  • Options
    #230
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Says who?



    There's an app for that...

    I find it funny that he's promoting a old fashioned inefficient way of doing it to make a case for his arguement that we need a heirarchical code.

    Then on the other hand we have a company with a bit of vision and fortsight who found a way to do their deliveries way better with eircode.


  • Options
    #231
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    plodder wrote: »
    .........

    But, the value of a hierarchical postcode is not for delivery. It's for routing. If you are delivering 30 pizzas,you want to be able to group them according to the small delivery area by just looking at the postcode. You might then give them to different drivers who then use a satnav for finding the exact location of each.

    how quaint


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #232
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    Did Autoaddress develop that app out of the goodness of their heart to give away for free to anyone who wants it?

    No?

    Didn't think so..

    Does anyone in the UK who wants to sort and group deliveries by area using the postcode, have to buy an app?

    No, they don't.

    If Eircode was hierarchical identifying small areas, would people be able to group, sort and organise deliveries by just looking at the postcodes, and not needing an "app"?

    Yes, they would. Don't take my word for it, if the logic isn't blindingly obvious. Ask people like DHL/


  • Options
    #233
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Did Autoaddress develop that app out of the goodness of their heart to give away for free to anyone who wants it?

    No?

    Didn't think so..

    Does anyone in the UK who wants to sort and group deliveries by area using the postcode, have to buy an app?

    No, they don't.

    If Eircode was hierarchical identifying small areas, would people be able to group, sort and organise deliveries by just looking at the postcodes, and not needing an "app"?

    Yes, they would. Don't take my word for it, if the logic isn't blindingly obvious. Ask people like DHL/

    No if you provide a service you get paid for it. That's the way the world works.

    You frown on developing an app as some sort of draw back?

    Do people in the UK HAVE to use the weather app on their phone? Or can they look out the window and get the weather for free?

    It's like that saying, can't remember it word for word but something like "if you keep doing something the same way you've always done it, don't expect a different result"

    If we want to keep sorting mail and packages with no use of new technology, then we'll get getting the same old service.


    I would imagine there ARE companies in the UK using app's for packet and letter delivery. Forward thinking ones.


  • Options
    #234
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    plodder wrote: »
    Did Autoaddress develop that app out of the goodness of their heart to give away for free to anyone who wants it?

    No?

    Didn't think so..

    Does anyone in the UK who wants to sort and group deliveries by area using the postcode, have to buy an app?

    No, they don't.

    If Eircode was hierarchical identifying small areas, would people be able to group, sort and organise deliveries by just looking at the postcodes, and not needing an "app"?


    Yes, they would. Don't take my word for it, if the logic isn't blindingly obvious. Ask people like DHL/


    Just by looking at the postcodes? As I've already demonstrated, that's not true at all.

    You need to combine the postcodes with an app called a 'map' to be able to use them for route planning purposes.


  • Options
    #235
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Just by looking at the postcodes? As I've already demonstrated, that's not true at all.

    You need to combine the postcodes with an app called a 'map' to be able to use them for route planning purposes.

    Sur they can tape a paper map to the windscreen! That way they can draw on them, one of the advantages of paper maps. None of these digital maps. They require technology to work! How can a delivery company be expected to adapt to them when they aren't usable manually?!


  • Options
    #236
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    plodder wrote: »
    Did Autoaddress develop that app out of the goodness of their heart to give away for free to anyone who wants it?

    No?

    Didn't think so..

    Does anyone in the UK who wants to sort and group deliveries by area using the postcode, have to buy an app?

    No, they don't.

    ....

    Well, that's them and their backward, quaint but lovely ways

    we have apps and nice modren things here


  • Options
    #237
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Just by looking at the postcodes? As I've already demonstrated, that's not true at all.
    Of course it's true. As I said yesterday, to actually deliver them, you need a satnav with exact locations, but you can pre-sort them so the deliveries to the same small area are done in sequence (or by different delivery people). And you can do that purely by looking at the postcode (if it is hierarchical).

    If the first five characters of an Eircode referred to the same small area, then you wouldn't need to know any other information to sort your deliveries. A map of the areas would help with routing. But the point is that you certainly wouldn't need an "app".

    This debate is so similar to the e-voting one. People just assuming that technology must always be better than simpler non technical solutions. Maybe it takes decades of working in IT to know that just isn't true.
    No if you provide a service you get paid for it. That's the way the world works.

    You frown on developing an app as some sort of draw back?
    Nothing wrong with developing apps. I write software for a living. And there's nothing wrong with providing a service. But, you shouldn't expect to get paid for it unless it provides real value for people. Not artificially created value like decoding a hidden postcode.


  • Options
    #238
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Optimised efficient deliveries saves a company money. That's a tangible real benefit. They wouldn't invest in the system unless it was. And no one is forcing them to use it if it isn't cost reflective.
    You of all people should know that if you want an app built, you pay for it. If you can't justify the cost of the app in your business plan, then you've a different issue.


  • Options
    #239
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    I didn't grow up with the GB postcode system. I grew up in Cork with no postcodes at all lah!

    You're very good at jumping to assumptions based on scant information.
    It is very easy when you live in a country to get brainwashed by the way they do things. I divide my time between several countries, which allows me a certain overview of the good and bad and what is taken as generally standard practice.


  • Options
    #240
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    plodder wrote: »
    Of course it's true. As I said yesterday, to actually deliver them, you need a satnav with exact locations, but you can pre-sort them so the deliveries to the same small area are done in sequence (or by different delivery people). And you can do that purely by looking at the postcode (if it is hierarchical).

    If the first five characters of an Eircode referred to the same small area, then you wouldn't need to know any other information to sort your deliveries. A map of the areas would help with routing. But the point is that you certainly wouldn't need an "app".

    Unfortunately minimalism, a focus on simplicity and logic are not features of the Irish culture. Ireland likes to make things complicated, which usually means more expensive, and dysfunctional for the end-user.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #241
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    c/ Pedro XXXXX, 5 – esc. 3 – 4º B izda.
    29007 Málaga

    The Spanish have a problem with reducing items to their simplest too.

    eg the above address could be written
    c/ PEDRO XXXXX 534B
    ES-29007 MALAGA

    Spanish company numbers are not simple like ES99999999
    Instead they usually incorporate book numbers, page numbers and line numbers where the company registration entry exists.

    There seems to be a vein of complicated mentality running up and down the Atlantic coastline.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement