Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Would you abide by a Union suggestion to not vote FG/Lab in General Election?

Options
  • 01-10-2015 6:29pm
    #1
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭


    I'd love if all the Education Unions gone together and suggested NOT voting for FG/Lab in the GE in Nov/Feb until we get New JC/CP Hours/FEMPI/Pension Levy etc sorted or off the table. Pay restored as per agreements to date etc.

    How many 1000s of public servants and teachers are there in the country? It'd be a fairly potent threat.

    Would you abide by a Union suggestion to not vote FG/Lab in GE? 69 votes

    Yes - great idea
    0% 0 votes
    Yes - but I wouldn't have voted for them anyway
    18% 13 votes
    No
    15% 11 votes
    Other?
    65% 45 votes


«1345

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    We are already held in low esteem from many in the general public, something like this would not help that cause. Also for this to happen we would need Unions with a strong back bone, and that too is lacking


  • Options
    #3
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I'd love if all the Education Unions gone together and suggested NOT voting for FG/Lab in the GE in Nov/Feb until we get New JC/CP Hours/FEMPI/Pension Levy etc sorted or off the table. Pay restored as per agreements to date etc.

    How many 1000s of public servants and teachers are there in the country? It'd be a fairly potent threat.
    I can't see a union ever advocating such a thing, so I think the question is moot.

    Personally, I won't be voting for either anyway, so for me it's definitely moot. I used to vote Labour, but not after their wrecking the education system.


  • Options
    #4
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    We are already held in low esteem from many in the general public,

    Sorry but statements like the above really make my blood boil! A foreigner just arriving on Irish soil on reading that would be forgiven for thinking that Irish teachers en masse must have done something absolutely dreadful.

    Well Irish teachers have done absolutely nothing all, apart from existing and having holidays and having the cheek to kick up a few times and the Sindo reading breed who begrudge that are not worth worrying about. You might feel like tip toeing around apologising for your existence maynooth_rules but I certainly don't!!

    So rant over and my view is that no union need tell me not to vote FG / Labour because neither mself nor any one in my family will ever vote for them again. And we always voted Labour!


  • Options
    #5
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    We are already held in low esteem from many in the general public,

    Sorry but statements like the above really make my blood boil! A foreigner just arriving on Irish soil on reading that would be forgiven for thinking that Irish teachers en masse must have done something absolutely dreadful.

    Well Irish teachers have done absolutely nothing all, apart from existing and having holidays and having the cheek to kick up a few times and the Sindo reading breed who begrudge that are not worth worrying about. You might feel like tip toeing around apologising for your existence maynooth_rules but I certainly don't!!

    So rant over and my view is that no union need tell me not to vote FG / Labour because neither mself nor any one in my family will ever vote for them again. And we always voted Labour!


  • Options
    #6
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    and vote for who ?
    I have always and will always vote for whomever I think is the strongest candidate regardless of party
    I just don't get the tyoemof person who always votes for one particular party
    They are not sports teams !


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    km79 wrote: »
    and vote for who ?
    I have always and will always vote for whomever I think is the strongest candidate regardless of party
    I just don't get the tyoemof person who always votes for one particular party
    They are not sports teams !

    They might not be sports teams, but different parties have - or should have - different philosophies. I just don't get the type of person who votes for a person regardless of their political philosophy...


  • Options
    #8
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    acequion wrote: »
    Sorry but statements like the above really make my blood boil! A foreigner just arriving on Irish soil on reading that would be forgiven for thinking that Irish teachers en masse must have done something absolutely dreadful.

    Well Irish teachers have done absolutely nothing all, apart from existing and having holidays and having the cheek to kick up a few times and the Sindo reading breed who begrudge that are not worth worrying about. You might feel like tip toeing around apologising for your existence maynooth_rules but I certainly don't!!

    So rant over and my view is that no union need tell me not to vote FG / Labour because neither mself nor any one in my family will ever vote for them again. And we always voted Labour!
    Why are you bothering ranting. I agree with you completly, but due to the way teachers have been perceived and stories have been turned by spin doctors we are not in anyway respected to the level that teachers once were


  • Options
    #9
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    I believe there is a motion at the Siptu conference next week calling for the link with the Labour Party to be broken. I hope it's supported.


  • Options
    #10
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    True km but in rural Ireland that is very much the way it has been. I think it's changing at last though.

    I would always have been slightly left of centre so voted a lot for Labour as they seemed to embody my views. Never again though.Total champagne socialists and blue shirt side kicks. I have no idea who I will vote for in the next election but it sure won't be the present incumbents.

    Many people also say that FG were never known for their niceness to public servants. I was out of the country for much of the 90's so don't much remember them in power before now. And I've seen enough!


  • Options
    #11
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    acequion wrote: »
    True km but in rural Ireland that is very much the way it has been. I think it's changing at last though.

    I would always have been slightly left of centre so voted a lot for Labour as they seemed to embody my views. Never again though.Total champagne socialists and blue shirt side kicks. I have no idea who I will vote for in the next election but it sure won't be the present incumbents.

    Many people also say that FG were never known for their niceness to public servants. I was out of the country for much of the 90's so don't much remember them in power before now. And I've seen enough!
    yes I now live in very rural Ireland and I just don't understand the mentality on a lot of matters :D


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    Why are you bothering ranting. I agree with you completly, but due to the way teachers have been perceived and stories have been turned by spin doctors we are not in anyway respected to the level that teachers once were

    No, you're right but my point is that the lack of respect is totally and completely unjustified,so not even worth talking about. So fear of what a hostile public think should never influence union policy. And we shouldn't even waste typos on it.


  • Options
    #13
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    acequion wrote: »
    I would always have been slightly left of centre so voted a lot for Labour as they seemed to embody my views. Never again though.Total champagne socialists and blue shirt side kicks. I have no idea who I will vote for in the next election but it sure won't be the present incumbents.

    We were talking about this in the staffroom today, and that was more or less the consensus.


  • Options
    #14
    D4RK ONION
    Moderators Posts: 8,678 ✭✭✭D4RK ONION


    katydid wrote: »
    I can't see a union ever advocating such a thing, so I think the question is moot.

    The whole point of a discussion forum is to discuss things. This is a hypothetical situation. Whether the unions would actually do this or not is irrelevant. There is absolutely no reason for the above statement. Most of the threads on boards could be locked with your reasoning.


  • Options
    #15
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    D4RK ONION wrote: »
    The whole point of a discussion forum is to discuss things. This is a hypothetical situation. Whether the unions would actually do this or not is irrelevant. There is absolutely no reason for the above statement. Most of the threads on boards could be locked with your reasoning.
    Discussing things doesn't mean that you have to take every suggestion seriously as a hypothetical. Unions don't make a habit of telling their members how to vote, so it doesn't make sense to me to consider it as a valid option.

    The issue of how teachers might vote is, however, an interesting and valid departing point for discussion, in my opinion.


  • Options
    #16
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Thank you D4rk Onion. I know they wouldn't do this but IF they did, I was wondering if it would be heeded.

    It's such a pity that so many of us are fighting for Education but we all seem to be on different sides/unions. It'd be a powerful voice if there was more unity and would scare the bejaysus out of any political party.

    I haven't decided who I'm voting for yet either but by process of elimination I don't seem to have any options.


  • Options
    #17
    GSOIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭GSOIRL


    You missed one huge aspect that will stop me and any new teacher, who has respect for themselves, voting for Labour or FG. I'm an NQT and because of this government I am paid a lot less than some of my equally qualified and equally experienced just because of when I qualified. This is disgraceful and is entirely inconsistent with the principles of equality and fairness.

    On another note, whatever chance you have of the ASTI or the TUI coming out against Labour you've no chance of the INTO doing it. The INTO CEC seem to be Labour spokespeople.

    Check out the Facebook page:

    Equal Pay for NQTS

    It has lots of interesting things about how our Government are treating teachers.


  • Options
    #18
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I've been reading that on VFT page. It's a really inequitable system at the mo.

    Saw a horrible post there today about a young teacher that was asked to give up her evening job if she wanted a contract in the school and was asked to come in Saturdays.


  • Options
    #19
    GSOIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭GSOIRL


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I've been reading that on VFT page. It's a really inequitable system at the mo.

    Saw a horrible post there today about a young teacher that was asked to give up her evening job if she wanted a contract in the school and was asked to come in Saturdays.


    Yes not only are NQTs discriminated in pay terms (Between 30% - 40% less pay than their colleagues) they are also under huge pressure to do everything that is asked of them and more in order to have a chance of being employed the next year. It is a very worrying time for the teaching profession and the Trade Union movement. Allowing members to be discriminated against to me makes a Union defunct.


  • Options
    #20
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    GSOIRL wrote: »
    Yes not only are NQTs discriminated in pay terms (Between 30% - 40% less pay than their colleagues) they are also under huge pressure to do everything that is asked of them and more in order to have a chance of being employed the next year. It is a very worrying time for the teaching profession and the Trade Union movement. Allowing members to be discriminated against to me makes a Union defunct.

    It hardly makes a union defunct - this was imposed on them, and they had no power to stop it. It certainly should have fought harder, and it still can. It won't if its members give up and it loses even more power.


  • Options
    #21
    GSOIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭GSOIRL


    katydid wrote: »
    It hardly makes a union defunct - this was imposed on them, and they had no power to stop it. It certainly should have fought harder, and it still can. It won't if its members give up and it loses even more power.

    No power to stop it? If they have no power what is there purpose?

    I'm not trying to be smart. This is a genuine question.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    GSOIRL wrote: »
    No power to stop it? If they have no power what is there purpose?

    I'm not trying to be smart. This is a genuine question.
    Their purpose is to try their best. They aren't omnipotent. Some members expect them to work wonders.


  • Options
    #23
    GSOIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭GSOIRL


    katydid wrote: »
    Their purpose is to try their best. They aren't omnipotent. Some members expect them to work wonders.


    I'll except that. That is all anyone or anything can do. However I'm not sure that they have tried their best or if they have their best is not good enough. According to Mr Pat King all they have really done or can offer NQTs is and I quote "You will be aware that as a gesture of support the ASTI fee for NQT’s is waived in year one."
    Yippee a years free membership. That makes up for the €8,493 less I was paid last year compared to my my equally qualified and equally experienced colleague and I haven't even mentioned the pensions. I suppose that's a good effort? As long as they're trying their best.


  • Options
    #24
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I think membership numbers among NQT is a lot of the problem. Looking around our staffroom a lot of (new) teachers that have joined the staff in the last 5/6 years have not joined the union. It's very hard to have a voice if you're not a member.

    NQT were definitely sold down the river by older staff members, but that couldn't/wouldn't have happened if they had the same strength of membership that older members have. I found it depressing when I saw the ballots being given out last week. Nearly 1 full table sitting together were not being given an envelope.

    Obviously, you/I could argue that NQT are being paid peanuts and can't afford membership. However, I think this was a growing trend, ever more the yellow pack salary scale came into being.


  • Options
    #25
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    I disagree that younger teachers were sold down the river by the older ones. The slashing of pay for new teachers was nothing to do with the Croke Park deal; it was imposed on the profession by the government.

    Of course, you could argue that in trying to protect conditions for existing teachers, the unions took their eye off the ball,and, as you say, had more young teachers become engaged with the union they might have influenced them to fight more.

    Hard to argue that unions shouldn't fight for their members, and that's what the Croke Park negotiations were all about.


  • Options
    #26
    GSOIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭GSOIRL


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I think membership numbers among NQT is a lot of the problem. Looking around our staffroom a lot of (new) teachers that have joined the staff in the last 5/6 years have not joined the union. It's very hard to have a voice if you're not a member.

    NQT were definitely sold down the river by older staff members, but that couldn't/wouldn't have happened if they had the same strength of membership that older members have. I found it depressing when I saw the ballots being given out last week. Nearly 1 full table sitting together were not being given an envelope.

    Obviously, you/I could argue that NQT are being paid peanuts and can't afford membership. However, I think this was a growing trend, ever more the yellow pack salary scale came into being.

    The discrimination of NQTs happened before many current NQTs were eligible to join a Union.


  • Options
    #27
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    deiseindublin wrote: »

    NQT were definitely sold down the river by older staff members, .

    I take issue with that!! What on earth were older members expected to do? It's the union's job to protect all members!

    Completely agree with GSOIRL that "best" is a long way from good enough where the unions are concerned. That's why we're in the sorry state we're in. And I'd wager that it's pressure from the membership that is keeping the ASTI some little way more militant. Possibly only a small cohort of members but a strong,militant one nonetheless.


  • Options
    #28
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,120 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Down tools until...

    The proper common payscale is restored.
    The waste of time that is Croke Park hours is done away with.
    Supervision and substitution goes back to the way it was - a chance for those on low or no hours to get some work.

    For a start. Nothing terribly objectionable there for Joe public and the chattering classes. They are supposed to be trade unions, working for us, not the kids, not the schools, not the subjects, not the exam system - us and only us.

    Not stupid lunch time protests or whispered threats of 'possible' action. Get out and stay out until it happens - regardless which lily livered Irish version of so called political standpoints is in office.


  • Options
    #29
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I found it depressing when I saw the ballots being given out last week. Nearly 1 full table sitting together were not being given an envelope.
    Totally agree, but this sentence shows that they are not helping themselves until they actually join up...it's not that expensive when you are not on full hours/ permanent either !!


  • Options
    #30
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    spurious wrote: »
    Down tools until...

    The proper common payscale is restored.
    The waste of time that is Croke Park hours is done away with.
    Supervision and substitution goes back to the way it was - a chance for those on low or no hours to get some work.

    For a start. Nothing terribly objectionable there for Joe public and the chattering classes. They are supposed to be trade unions, working for us, not the kids, not the schools, not the subjects, not the exam system - us and only us.

    Not stupid lunch time protests or whispered threats of 'possible' action. Get out and stay out until it happens - regardless which lily livered Irish version of so called political standpoints is in office.

    Not so sure I'd go along with this. Going out and staying out would get us nowhere but bad feeling from our students and the public, not to mention loss of pay, which many in our profession just cannot do. We should play way smarter than that. Which is why this new JC presented us with a loaded weapon to the Govt. A weapon, which surprisingly, few were prepared to use. My view would be that until pay parity is restored, until S&S returns to how it was,until CP hours are gone,until a commitment to reduce the PTR is secured [and that is not forgetting what happened to sick pay,extra qualification allowances just to name a few more of recent cuts] JC reform is completely off the table.

    That,I think,is how the union should have and still could play this. At election time that is quite a weapon.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    SIPTU used to give a bit over €100,000 in donations to Labour.. Is this still going on?

    To my mind anyway Ruairi Quinn epitomised the champagne socialism of 'New Labour', so when they come to my door I'll ask them if they were for the croke park agreement or not (and Haddington Road and Lansdown Road).

    I still have the little Lansdown Road booklet here and flicking thorugh it, it speeks a lot about reforming the public sector... but all I'm physically seeing are paycuts and increased working hours (with less teaching time!!).

    As regards the Older teachers selling the NQT's down the road, it's a complex issue with many factors, don't forget that it was one vote per member with a multitude of things to consider for each member, they didn't 'just' vote to cut NQT's pay, there was stuff in there directly affecting them too. And even then they voted against it a few times (but capitulated in the end). I wonder if more of the nqt's had voted would the outcome be any different.

    But yes none of the recent NQT's in our school are in the union and had a great chuckle about the paid day off they were getting the last strike day.


Advertisement