The Confederate flag - STFU

MakeEmLaugh · 25-06-2015 1:26am #1

Does anyone else wish that the American media - and American politicians - would shut the fuck up about the Confederate flag?

First, the Governor of South Carolina, Nikki Haley, called for it to be removed from the State House grounds.

Then Walmart - a company whose policy towards its staff and their unions has been anything but ethical - announced it would no longer sell items with the Confederate flag on them.

Amazon, eBay, Etsy, Sears, Target and Google followed suit.

Sorry, billion-dollar companies, but your empty gesture and crocodile tears will do nothing to resurrect the corpses of the 9 people who were shot dead in Charleston last week.

How about, instead of banning a piece of cloth, you stop selling guns and bullets?

Didn't think so.

AbusesToilets · 25-06-2015 2:06am

Knee jerk bans and laws are certainly the best recourse after a tragedy.

Amerika · 25-06-2015 2:39pm

This is the flag that should invoke outrage.

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Not some battle flag.

InTheTrees · 25-06-2015 10:42pm

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

First, the Governor of South Carolina, Nikki Haley, called for it to be removed from the State House grounds.

No, She was very far from the first.

People have been trying to get it removed for decades.

InTheTrees · 25-06-2015 10:45pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Knee jerk bans and laws are certainly the best recourse after a tragedy.

It isnt knee jerk.

And it isnt even a "ban". You can still cover your house in it if you like.

But it isnt the state flag. There's no reason to have it flying over the state capitol.

InTheTrees · 25-06-2015 10:47pm

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

How about, instead of banning a piece of cloth,

It hasnt been banned.

AbusesToilets · 26-06-2015 12:11am

InTheTrees wrote: »

It isnt knee jerk.

And it isnt even a "ban". You can still cover your house in it if you like.

But it isnt the state flag. There's no reason to have it flying over the state capitol.

I was referring to the gun control stuff. I can't understand why states are permitted to fly a traitor's flag, to me that flag in anathema to everything that the US stands for as a nation.

InTheTrees · 26-06-2015 12:34am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I was referring to the gun control stuff. I can't understand why states are permitted to fly a traitor's flag, to me that flag in anathema to everything that the US stands for as a nation.

Apologies.

I agree.

I'm solidly against its display, it really is (has become) a symbol of hate and bigotry and I'm afraid to say the people who are staunchly defending it...well... lets just be charitable and say they hold some very old school values.

And it may be time for those who hold such "values" to show a little flexibility towards their fellow citizens.

MakeEmLaugh · 26-06-2015 1:11am

InTheTrees wrote: »

No, She was very far from the first.

People have been trying to get it removed for decades.

InTheTrees wrote: »

It hasnt been banned.

I was speaking about Walmart, a company so revolting and unethical there is currently a 9,000 word article online listing only criticisms of it.

The idea that anyone should follow their lead on matters of conscience is not only absurd, it's offensive.

I couldn't give a fuck if the flag is banned from Walmart or Amazon (which it has been, sorry I have to repeat myself).

All this horseshit about the Confederate flag is a distraction from the real problem with the United States - its Second Amendment.

Brian? · 26-06-2015 1:15am

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I was speaking about Walmart, a company so revolting and unethical there is currently a 9,000 word article online listing only criticisms of it.

The idea that anyone should follow their lead on matters of conscience is not only absurd, it's offensive.

I couldn't give a fuck if the flag is banned from Walmart or Amazon (which it has been, sorry I have to repeat myself).

All this horseshit about the Confederate flag is a distraction from the real problem with the United States - its Second Amendment.

There's nothing wrong with the 2d amendment. The problem is how it's stretched so far.

InTheTrees · 26-06-2015 1:15am

I suppose "banned" is kind of an odd choice of words when they choose not to sell something. Even under pressure.

But yeah, second amendment is the elephant in the room. And the stranglehold the NRA holds over most politicians.

BoJack Horseman · 26-06-2015 1:18am

Brian? wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the 2d amendment. The problem is how it's stretched so far.

Where are all these "well regulated militias" everyone should be members of?

Mardy Bum · 26-06-2015 1:18am

Small steps first. The Conservative mindset is programmed to reject change. Their acceptance of this change should be celebrated.

Amerika · 26-06-2015 2:23am

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Where are all these "well regulated militias" everyone should be members of?

We're right here. Ready, willing and able to serve. Well, those of us that believe the US Constitution is more than just a piece of paper, that is. Many of us can even bring our own gear.

Amerika · 26-06-2015 2:37am

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Small steps first. The Conservative mindset is programmed to reject change. Their acceptance of this change should be celebrated.

No, we crave change. The country has been going in the wrong direction for the last 6 years now. The shift left hasn't helped the average citizen and a move to slightly right of center is needed.

Mardy Bum · 26-06-2015 3:08am

Amerika wrote: »

No, we crave change. The country has been going in the wrong direction for the last 6 years now. The shift left hasn't helped the average citizen and a move to slightly right of center is needed.

Damn socialists.

Conservatives by and large dislike progress and the trajectory of a once progressive party has been halted by fear. Anyone who prescribes to "conservative values" a la confederate flag, inability to distinguish right wing terrorism, build a wall on the border, supporter of the numerous clown car politicians are not only embarrassing to themselves but also the species.

Ed_Stephens · 26-06-2015 3:10am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I was referring to the gun control stuff. I can't understand why states are permitted to fly a traitor's flag, to me that flag in anathema to everything that the US stands for as a nation.

It is not a traitors flag and although it has been hijacked by hate groups it also represents a very strong view in US politics which is that of the right of the state verses the right of the federal government. The flag itself was never even the flag of the CSA rather a battle flag used for identifying and rallying groups of troops.

Ed_Stephens · 26-06-2015 3:19am

InTheTrees wrote: »

Apologies.

I agree.

I'm solidly against its display, it really is (has become) a symbol of hate and bigotry and I'm afraid to say the people who are staunchly defending it...well... lets just be charitable and say they hold some very old school values.

And it may be time for those who hold such "values" to show a little flexibility towards their fellow citizens.

I am going to defend it as will many others interested in the American civil war. Why should it be banned just because hate groups hijack it? If isis started adopting the shamrock would you ban that? Banning nazi symbols in Germany hasn't stopped right wing extremists neo nazi groups.

The answer is education not banning, it is part of Americas and the southern states heritage. There is a museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, should that be closed as several original Confederate battle flags are on view there? The real question to be addressed here is 150 years after the civil war why is America still one of the most racist and marginalised countries in the world?

Ed_Stephens · 26-06-2015 3:43am

InTheTrees wrote: »

Apologies.

I agree.

I'm solidly against its display, it really is (has become) a symbol of hate and bigotry and I'm afraid to say the people who are staunchly defending it...well... lets just be charitable and say they hold some very old school values.

And it may be time for those who hold such "values" to show a little flexibility towards their fellow citizens.

I am going to defend it as will many others interested in the American civil war. Why should it be banned just because hate groups hijack it? If isis started adopting the shamrock would you ban that? Banning nazi symbols in Germany hasn't stopped right wing extremists neo nazi groups.

The answer is education not banning, it is part of Americas and the southern states heritage. There is a museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, should that be closed as several original Confederate battle flags are on view there? The real question to be addressed here is 150 years after the civil war why is America still one of the most racist and marginalised countries in the world?

InTheTrees · 26-06-2015 3:54am

Ed_Stephens wrote: »

I am going to defend it as will many others interested in the American civil war. Why should it be banned just because hate groups hijack it? If isis started adopting the shamrock would you ban that? Banning nazi symbols in Germany hasn't stopped right wing extremists neo nazi groups.

The answer is education not banning, it is part of Americas and the southern states heritage. There is a museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, should that be closed as several original Confederate battle flags are on view there? The real question to be addressed here is 150 years after the civil war why is America still one of the most racist and marginalised countries in the world?

Its not being banned.

They're not going to fly it from the state capitol.

InTheTrees · 26-06-2015 3:56am

Ed_Stephens wrote: »

The real question to be addressed here is 150 years after the civil war why is America still one of the most racist and marginalised countries in the world?

Exactly.

This is long overdue. Removing symbols of hate and bigotry are part of that process.

AbusesToilets · 26-06-2015 11:17am

Ed_Stephens wrote: »

It is not a traitors flag and although it has been hijacked by hate groups it also represents a very strong view in US politics which is that of the right of the state verses the right of the federal government. The flag itself was never even the flag of the CSA rather a battle flag used for identifying and rallying groups of troops.

Eh, pretty sure seceding from the Union and initiating the bloodiest war in the nation's history, largely over the right to maintain slavery, falls under the definition of treason.

Mardy Bum · 26-06-2015 11:37am

Ed_Stephens wrote: »

I am going to defend it as will many others interested in the American civil war. Why should it be banned just because hate groups hijack it? If isis started adopting the shamrock would you ban that? Banning nazi symbols in Germany hasn't stopped right wing extremists neo nazi groups.

The answer is education not banning, it is part of Americas and the southern states heritage. There is a museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, should that be closed as several original Confederate battle flags are on view there? The real question to be addressed here is 150 years after the civil war why is America still one of the most racist and marginalised countries in the world?

You do know the primary reason for the Civil War? The flag that the rednecks like waving only became popular during the Civil rights movement also. The flag is a blatantly racist symbol.

BoJack Horseman · 26-06-2015 12:17pm

Amerika wrote: »

We're right here. Ready, willing and able to serve.

What well regulated militia are you a member of?

And being 'well regulated' one assumes your militia train regularly with the regular army?

Ed_Stephens · 26-06-2015 12:37pm

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly.

This is long overdue. Removing symbols of hate and bigotry are part of that process.

No removing so called symbols of hate will only toughen the hard line extreme stance. People need to realise the flag is not the so called rebel flag and be aware of its true historical origin and function. Pretending it doesn't exist solves nothing.

Ed_Stephens · 26-06-2015 12:47pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Eh, pretty sure seceding from the Union and initiating the bloodiest war in the nation's history, largely over the right to maintain slavery, falls under the definition of treason.

It depends on your point of view. Many who fought and led the CSA believed they had a higher duty to their state rather than the Union. The right to secede from the union was primary in their minds and not treasonous to them. In the same way that the 1916 rising leaders were seen as treasonous to the British but patriots to the Irish.

Ed_Stephens · 26-06-2015 12:52pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

You do know the primary reason for the Civil War? The flag that the rednecks like waving only became popular during the Civil rights movement also. The flag is a blatantly racist symbol.

I have studied the American civil war a lot and am well aware of the many reasons as to why it started. Don't forget the emancipation proclamation was only announced in 1863 two years after the war started.

The flag itself is not racist, it has been hijacked by hate groups like the swastiki. In my view they have no right to wave the flag. Like I said people should be educated as to its origin and not just the kkk types who claim it. Rednecks is somewhat of a racist term and very inaccurate.

Ed_Stephens · 26-06-2015 12:53pm

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly.

This is long overdue. Removing symbols of hate and bigotry are part of that process.

No removing so called symbols of hate will only toughen the hard line extreme stance. People need to realise the flag is not the so called rebel flag and be aware of its true historical origin and function. Pretending it doesn't exist solves nothing.

Mardy Bum · 26-06-2015 1:03pm

Ed_Stephens wrote: »

I have studied the American civil war a lot and am well aware of the many reasons as to why it started. Don't forget the emancipation proclamation was only announced in 1863 two years after the war started.

The flag itself is not racist, it has been hijacked by hate groups like the swastiki. In my view they have no right to wave the flag. Like I said people should be educated as to its origin and not just the kkk types who claim it. Rednecks is somewhat of a racist term and very inaccurate.

The flag itself was never actually used during the war. It became popularised during the Civil Rights Movement when different states adopted it. Funnily enough it was those states which fiercely rejected the Civil Rights Movements. You are either being purposefully obtuse or are ignorant of history.

InTheTrees · 26-06-2015 1:12pm

Ed_Stephens wrote: »

People need to realise the flag is not the so called rebel flag and be aware of its true historical origin and function. Pretending it doesn't exist solves nothing.

uh huh.

Just like we can convince people the swastika is just a happy Buddhist symbol?

Unfortunately the flag has been co-opted by the racists and its been like that for a good thirty or forty years now, while activists have agitated for its removal.

So the historians and civil war enthusiasts have had plenty of time to convince the public that it still warrants public display just because of its historical value.

I dont think anyone is pretending it doesnt exist.

InTheTrees · 26-06-2015 1:14pm

Ed_Stephens wrote: »

No removing so called symbols of hate will only toughen the hard line extreme stance.

A hard liner just murdered 9 people in a church.

Upsetting the "hard liners" (racists) is really not a major concern.

The Confederate flag - STFU

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