Season 5 x 09: The Dance of Dragons - HAVE READ the books

Witcher · 08-06-2015 4:47pm

chanelfreak wrote: »

So what do we think for next week? Olly stabbing Jon is a given (I would think), but will they show him coming back? Seeing as the book hasnt yet given any firm indication that he will come out of it? Also, where is Ghost? Cos I think the book points us toward
Jon warging into Ghost at the moment of his death

Jon has to come back next week, they wouldn't be able to hide the fact that Kit is filming next year and he wouldn't be able to be in the trailers or other promo material.

Ghost is in Castle Black.

chanelfreak · 08-06-2015 4:50pm

Strider wrote: »

Jon has to come back next week, they wouldn't be able to hide the fact that Kit is filming next year and he wouldn't be able to be in the trailers or other promo material.

Ghost is in Castle Black.

But has it been confirmed anywhere that Kit is definitely coming back? I wouldnt take anything for granted at this stage of both the show and the books...

Savage Tyrant · 08-06-2015 4:57pm

I think we could safely start referring to Olly as "Stabby McStabberson" ... Even on the Non Book Readers thread and it wouldn't be giving anything extra away.

Giruilla · 08-06-2015 5:00pm

bopper wrote: »

I'm surprised to see so much negativity around this episode, for me it was really strong. Yes the dragon CGI was a bit dodgy at the end but I think it's a bit of a stretch to expect visuals as strong as last week every episode. Plus I only felt the shots of Dany on the back of the Dragon were poor, the rest looked fine to me.

Me too, was close to my favourite episode of the whole show. I thought the fighting pits CGI was outstanding for a tv show.

I don't get the anger about Stannis.. he murdered his brother too. He's forced into doing what he sees is the only option he has left - awful option as it is.
And as has been pointed out, it was GRRMs idea.

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 5:18pm

bopper wrote:

I must be one of the few that doesn't think that was out of character for Stannis. I've never disliked the character, but I never saw him as a "good guy" either.

He's not a good guy but he has a code. Even killing Renley was pretty understandable given that he was trying to usurp Stannis and claim his throne. How he did it was definitely shnakey though, very shnakey.

Giruilla wrote:

I don't get the anger about Stannis.. he murdered his brother too. He's forced into doing what he sees is the only option he has left - awful option as it is. And as has been pointed out, it was GRRMs idea.

His brother was trying to usurp him. Shireen is not only innocent but his heir and at no point did I feel that he had no other options left, certainly not because twenty men burnt a few tents. It's just bad writing.

jones · 08-06-2015 5:19pm

It just doesnt seem to fit with his book or tv character though. He was busy telling everyone to F off when they told him he'd have to kill her or send her away with the greyscale and the big speech about her being his daughter etc. Stannis as a character was really growing on me...and now this.

I think GRRM is just a narcisist :rolleyes:

Washington Irving · 08-06-2015 5:44pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

His brother was trying to usurp him. Shireen is not only innocent but his heir and at no point did I feel that he had no other options left, certainly not because twenty men burnt a few tents. It's just bad writing.

Pretty accurate summation of how things must have gone down (stolen from reddit):

"Red woman! You said you had superpowers over fire. How did twenty men led by a guy wearing no shirt in a blizzard burn down half my camp and burn my food? How do you even ****ing burn food in a blizzard?"
"My king, if we burn your only daughter alive while she screams and pleads for mercy, I swear we will win."
"How?"
"Trust me. I got this."
"Okay."

Giruilla · 08-06-2015 5:45pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

It's just bad writing.

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

Can't help but feel if Shireen had been killed in the books people wouldn't have a problem with it.
I imagine Stannis thoughts would(/will) be a lot more fleshed out in the book - to show he felt it was his only option.

jones · 08-06-2015 5:51pm

Giruilla wrote: »

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

Can't help but feel if Shireen had been killed in the books people wouldn't have a problem with it.
I imagine Stannis thoughts would(/will) be a lot more fleshed out in the book - to show he felt it was his only option.

I think people are finding it hard to believe he'd even do it especially with how he's being protrayed in the show. Even stuff like the red wedding made some sort of sense in the overall story, this just doesn't for me.

In the books Stannis isnt even with her so its hard to know if he'll be directly involved if it does transpire.

awec · 08-06-2015 5:52pm

I thought it was an awful episode tbh. Nowhere near as good as last week.

It seemed poorly made too. The dragon CGI looked well dodgy and did anyone else notice Jorah's sword bending about showing it was obviously rubber when he was fighting?

Savage Tyrant · 08-06-2015 5:59pm

I think if Stannis is to survive into the next series it would have been better for that scene to have been done back at the wall without him after receiving a raven that they were snowed in and without food or supplies.
If however as I Suspect now, he'll meet his end at the hands of the Boltons or Brienne then it probably suits the show direction better this way in their minds.

I still dont think it was in keeping with his character to burn his daughter though.
I think the show is trying to telegraph that Dany is the only claimant to the T Horne with true noble intentions.

Washington Irving · 08-06-2015 6:11pm

Giruilla wrote: »

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

Can't help but feel if Shireen had been killed in the books people wouldn't have a problem with it.
I imagine Stannis thoughts would(/will) be a lot more fleshed out in the book - to show he felt it was his only option.

I don't think many have a problem with Shireen getting the Joan of Arc treatment (in terms of the story), but rather how unjustified it seemed.

Even in the Inside the Episode video, D&D say "once Stannis makes a decision, he never changes his mind" despite him already refusing to sacrifice Shireen. The reasons just weren't explored near enough, felt like shock value for the sake of it at the expense of a character they've been building since season two.

awec · 08-06-2015 6:18pm

I feel the show has lost it's way somewhat this season. With the exception of last week the episodes have been pretty dull and in some parts just made no sense.

I said last week that it felt like a bridging season and that's true, but at the same time I haven't been impressed and it is certainly a lot weaker than seasons 1 to 4. Almost as if they have had a big budget cut. Really hope they get it together for season 6 and get back on track, and also hope that the season finale is done well.

Sleepy · 08-06-2015 6:25pm

I can't help but wonder at how spoiled modern audiences have become when the CGI in this episode is being criticised. Sure, there were a couple of seconds worth of dodgy CGI work but (a) this is a TV show and (b) most of the scene looked incredible. How would this generation have fared back in the days of Dynamation and Ray Harryhausen's work?

The decision to burn Shireen made sense to me, having read the books and preview chapters and knowing how truly desperate Stannis is in his position in the snow but I felt they could have added another minute or two of screen time over the past few weeks to demonstrate that better. Was never in the Stannis fan club anyway, always loved Donal Noye's comment that pretty accurately summed up the Baratheons:

Donal Noye wrote:

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.

The writing is getting clunkier imo but I'm still enjoying the show more than anything else I've watched on television for years (last time I was such a dedicated fan of something I was about 10 and the show was MacGuyver).

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 6:27pm

Giruilla wrote:

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

The show. I haven't read any preview chapters from the unpublished books and so if it does happen in the books I have no idea how or why therefore it would unfair for me to judge.

Washington Irving wrote:

I don't think many have a problem with Shireen getting the Joan of Arc treatment (in terms of the story), but rather how unjustified it seemed.

This pretty much. I mean it's not the the show didn't have time to explore the reasons, this episode was 99% filler. Instead of wasting time on showing Stannis to be a loving father only to backtrack they could have had him out of the wall and explored and shown the desperation of their situation further. I can't even remember why he brought shireen in the first place.

Mr Freeze · 08-06-2015 7:09pm

As a massive Stannis fan from the books, you may have seen me post in previous threads that I thought they were setting Brienne up to kill him and that I would rather see her flayed.

Well I have changed my mind.

I don't care how TV show Stannis dies, as long as he does. I hope his men abandon him, they looked absolutely appalled. This is the man they fight for, a man who burns his only heir.

What an awful change to make and an awful scene to watch.

The dragon riding scene was a bit sh1t too, they should have shown it happen a bit quicker and just get the scene over with it, instead of that never ending story riding sequence, it was cringe.

Bar the 20 mins of episode 8, this is a fairly poor season, thank feck we have the books!

/rant

ZeitgeistGlee · 08-06-2015 7:09pm

After Hardholme this was an immensely unsatisfying episode. TV Stannis has never been a patch of the book version but this was a new low. The shambles that is the Dornish plotline is just adding insult to injury at this point.

Mr Freeze · 08-06-2015 7:13pm

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

After Hardholme this was an immensely unsatisfying episode. TV Stannis has never been a patch of the book version but this was a new low. The shambles that is the Dornish plotline is just adding insult to injury at this point.

Certainly not the same Stannis that survived the siege at Storms end on rats and leather. Burns his daughter after one particularly bad night.

blatantrereg · 08-06-2015 7:16pm

Nody wrote: »

Well that was quite a difference to the book;

What an awful change to make

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Certainly not the same Stannis that survived the siege at Storms end on rats and leather. Burns his daughter after one particularly bad night.

Apparently it was GRRM's idea, so I guess it will happen in the books too.

http://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-shireen-spoilers/

ZeitgeistGlee · 08-06-2015 7:26pm

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Certainly not the same Stannis that survived the siege at Storms end on rats and leather. Burns his daughter after one particularly bad night.

Indeed, nor the same man who told the Iron Bank "If I die in this campaign you make my daughter Queen instead". This actually sums it up quite nicely.

blatantrereg wrote: »

Apparently it was GRRM's idea, so I guess it will happen in the books too.

I'd like to see confirmation of that, but even if it's true it mightn't necessarily occur in the books. GoT and ASoIaF have enough differences between them that would allow him to suggest things for the series that wouldn't make sense in the books. Plenty of characters are quite different from their book counterparts as to sell different motivations.

Mr Freeze · 08-06-2015 7:27pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

Apparently it was GRRM's idea, so I guess it will happen in the books too.

http://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-shireen-spoilers/

We shall see!

Given his current predicament in the books and they way he speaks of his daughter (an irrelevant point given how book Stannis did too), but in the sample chapter what he says

about seating her on the iron throne if he dies.

Spoilered in case some people did not read the sample chapter, which was great by the way, a great chapter for book Stannis fans.

Back to my point, we will have to wait and see if it happens in the book, she may well get burnt, but I don't see Stannis giving the order.

bnt · 08-06-2015 7:29pm

I'm not watching this series, but don't mind spoilers since I'm up-to-date with the books, though I had to check DwD again to remind myself where we were. Last we heard from Stannis, he was lost in the snow with growing pressure to produce a miracle. The idea that someone would be sacrificed is strongly foreshadowed, but in the book Selyse and Shireen remain behind at the Wall, and don't accompany Stannis south. Instead, the most likely candidate appears to be Asha (Yara in the show). However, she may be more useful alive as a bargaining chip. On the other hand, Shireen was expected to die at some point, anyway, thanks to the greyscale.

Hans Bricks · 08-06-2015 7:31pm

As dark and grim as Shireen's burning was, I think it was down to pure manipulation by Melisandre. I think Stannis is kind of deluded with destiny at this stage. However I still think that even after that infanticide, to end Stannis arc at the hands of a Bolton or that shaved sasquatch from Tarth would be even worse than the Dornish plot.

I thought the pit scene was decent minus some CGI, but hopefully this is the final season we'll spend pissing about Slaver's Bay and Meereen.

Arya. Just kill someone already and stop speaking in cryptics. Honestly, her arc is as boring as Dorne.

blatantrereg · 08-06-2015 7:32pm

bnt wrote: »

I'm not watching this series, but don't mind spoilers since I'm up-to-date with the books, though I had to check DwD again to remind myself where we were. Last we heard from Stannis, he was lost in the snow with growing pressure to produce a miracle. The idea that someone would be sacrificed is strongly foreshadowed, but in the book Selyse and Shireen remain behind at the Wall, and don't accompany Stannis south. Instead, the most likely candidate appears to be Asha (Yara in the show). However, she may be more useful alive as a bargaining chip. On the other hand, Shireen was expected to die at some point, anyway, thanks to the greyscale.

my understanding is that she has been cured of the greyscale disease - thanks largely to stannis' tenacity with the matter - and just still has the disfigurement.

ZeitgeistGlee · 08-06-2015 7:32pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

http://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-shireen-spoilers/

The thing about that is even if at some point some circumstance leads to Stannis burning Shireen it won't be for something as slipshod as what occurred in this episode.

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 7:36pm

Mr Freeze wrote:

I don't care how TV show Stannis dies, as long as he does. I hope his men abandon him, they looked absolutely appalled. This is the man they fight for, a man who burns his only heir.

Exactly, he's now an open kinslayer. No one knows he killed Renley but now he's burnt alive his own daughter. I can't see a situation where his men don't take issue with that. It was stupid thing to do and makes no sense.

TwoShedsJackson · 08-06-2015 7:37pm

Crosspost from the other thread:

:pac:

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 08-06-2015 7:39pm

I thought that was alright, I think it's partly the fact that last week was one hell of an act to follow that's making people judge it so harshly.

The Shireen thing…I called it a few weeks ago, but it was handled badly. If there'd been more of a sense of a lot of time having passed, a real credible threat of mutiny... If they hadn't written a scene for a character who is most notable for his stubbornness and consistency wherein he tells his daughter "I will literally kill anybody who thinks of saying anything mean to you" just a few episodes ago…it's not what they did (and the scene its actual self I thought was excellent, if horrifying) but the context they did it in and the reasons they did it for.

Selyse's change of heart was…interesting. Totally out of character, which is just par for the course for this show at this point, but tying in nicely with other little and big moments where maternity and maternal instinct seems to be a thematic thing they're really emphasising this season, even more than usual. I know there's less than a snowball in hell's chance like, but a gal can dream that it's foreshadowing LS.

Dorne can just fcuk off. Dany and Drogon, pretty good. Yeah the CGI was patchy, but it's a TV show, and I don't watch it for the CGI. The Unsullied suddenly forgetting how to fight was pretty galling though, it's just another example of "let's do things that make no sense and actually undermine good work we've done previously for the sake of moving the plot from point a to point b ASAP" I haven't rewatched them since they leaked but my lasting impression of the first four episodes was that not a whole lot happened, I feel that this season is pretty unbalanced, all the incident is towards this end of it.

I mean, perfectly grand episode, especially in the context of this bloody season, but not great.

MythicalMadMan · 08-06-2015 8:08pm

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Just as good as the previous episode....

The Stannis/Shireen bit blew me away.... I literally felt sick watching it...

Ironic considering your username

#Edit~ shouldnt have posted here as I havent read the books took me 2 pages of wondering why people where getting away with it before I copped sigh

Grey Wind · 08-06-2015 8:13pm

If Stannis does burn her in the books (which seems unlikely considering how far apart they are - Mel and Selyse will likely do it), I can't imagine it being as badly written as this. Ramsay (somehow??) burns his supplies and the same day he does a 360 and decides to burn his daughter? This is the same guy who lived off rats for a year in Storm's End.

It's also a stupid move politically, considering he just doomed his House and possibly alienated his men.

Season 5 x 09: The Dance of Dragons - HAVE READ the books

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