Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

eire4 · 11-01-2015 4:50am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can you blame them when the churches never pay their fair share?

I hear what your saying but to my mind this is just another example of Irish governments not standing up for the people in this case the victims of abuse and instead once again working in concert with the church against its own people. To say the church never pays up isn't good enough. Stand up to the church demand very publically that they pay up.

In 2001 a government appointed panel gave compensation to 12,000 abuse victims but only on condition that they not sue either the church or the state. On top of that with thousands of claims pending at the the time they cut a deal with the church that would make the churchs contribution only 128m euro which turned out to be only a fraction of the cost and to date only about 106m of that disgusting deal has even been collected. The church should be paying at least half the costs and not forcing the taxpayer to pay most of the compensation for these crimes which it committed albeit with a government that was complicit. The bill for the abuse victims post Ryan report is estimated at 1.46B euro. Never mind what the costs for these more recently discovered crimes will be. The government needs to pay damages for its part in these crimes but equally the church needs to be fully held to account and made to pay at least half of the costs for these crimes as well.

recedite · 11-01-2015 9:18pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

They never do but I hope we look at exposing and fining the big pharma companies that used our babies for illegal vaccine trials.

I'd prefer to see whatever deals were done between the pharma companies and church or state all out in the open, before deciding whether pharma were guilty of anything. If nobody external to the homes profited, and if any money was used to improve life at the homes, and if children's lives were saved by vaccinations, there is not much to say.

Consider the current situation with ebola vaccines, they are basically experimenting on people. But if lives are being saved, what's the problem?
Would you expect those people to sue in 50 years time?

It all depends on the nature of the testing. If they gave one dose of something that had already passed non-human trials and seemed very likely to work, fair enough IMO. If they were to give multiple doses to ascertain what side effects happen due to overdose, that would be unacceptable. I know there is one guy going around claiming his arm was scarred from multiple injections, but all this needs to be properly investigated.
The issue of consent is not the all important factor IMO. OK these were kids, but if you compare to ebola victims currently, some are not well enough informed to be able to give informed consent. Others are well informed medical personnel, but seriously ill with ebola, so not in a position to refuse consent really.

goose2005 · 11-01-2015 10:15pm

Going Strong wrote: »

Don't forget "You're judging people in the past by the standards of today."

Also quite an odd thing to say if you believe that morals are eternal and unchanging. Deciding that child neglect was less serious then than it is now is surely some sort of moral relativism.

Baggy Trousers · 11-01-2015 10:21pm

goose2005 wrote: »

Also quite an odd thing to say if you believe that morals are eternal and unchanging. Deciding that child neglect was less serious then than it is now is surely some sort of moral relativism.

Odd thing to say alright given the Roman organisation is getting its guidance from a 2000 year old book or from even older Moses tablets...

The Black Oil · 14-04-2015 9:09pm

Did anyone catch the Would You Believe episode about this? Catherine Corless was involved. I didn't see it, but will catch up.

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10406538/

Going Strong · 03-06-2015 9:06am

More grim news.

Concerns that up to 1,000 children may have been “trafficked” to the US from the Tuam mother and baby home in “a scandal that dwarfs other, more recent issues with the Church and State” were raised by the HSE in 2012.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation-fears-over-trafficking-of-children-to-the-us-334315.html

Going Strong · 03-06-2015 9:07am

And even more.

The State has said it was horrified by the revelations about the 796 babies buried at Tuam. However, HSE reports into Tuam and Bessborough mother and baby homes had been prepared for the Government two years previously

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation-government-already-knew-of-baby-deaths-334260.html

Baggy Trousers · 03-06-2015 9:11am

Going Strong wrote: »

More grim news.

Concerns that up to 1,000 children may have been “trafficked” to the US from the Tuam mother and baby home in “a scandal that dwarfs other, more recent issues with the Church and State” were raised by the HSE in 2012.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation-fears-over-trafficking-of-children-to-the-us-334315.html

Sickening but nothing surprises me anymore but I do not expect the nuns to "co-operate fully with that commission". It's against their mindset.

Viper_JB · 03-06-2015 9:21am

Doesn't seem to be any criminal investigation...I don't understand how you could find 1000 baby bodies in a hole in the ground and not have every garda in the country working the case, surely some of those responsible are still around....sick bastards...

Vivisectus · 03-06-2015 9:28am

What I want to know is why there is no wider acknowledgement by the Church that this happened, that it was awful and immoral, and that they should try to somehow atone for this? Isn't the Church all about admitting terrible misdeeds and trying to better yourself through redemption? Or is that just for the punters?

PopePalpatine · 03-06-2015 9:56am

Nah, they'll just justify it by harping on and on about all of the "good things" they did for this country, like an abusive parent defending themselves by mentioning that they kept their child(ren) fed, watered and sheltered.

Lingua Franca · 03-06-2015 4:07pm

It notes there were letters from the Tuam mother and baby home to parents asking for money for the upkeep of their children and notes that the duration of stay for children may have been prolonged by the order for financial reasons.

It also uncovered letters to parents asking for money for the upkeep of some children that had already been discharged or had died. The social worker, “working in her own time and on her own dollar”, had compiled a list of “up to 1,000 names”, but said it was “not clear yet whether all of these relate to the ongoing examination of the Magdalene system, or whether they relate to the adoption of children by parents, possibly in the USA”.

It's depressing that this is not one bit surprising.

eire4 · 03-06-2015 5:15pm

Just when you think maybe there cannot be even more sick and evil revelations to come out once again sadly that is proved to be an overly optimistic outlook. The current government look once again like they are much more interested in sweeping this under the carpet then activily going after justice for the victims of the church.
Given the sheer scale of these crimes this should be one of the top if not the top priority for the Gardai right now.

Brian Shanahan · 03-06-2015 6:56pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Nah, they'll just justify it by harping on and on about all of the "good things" they did for this country, like an abusive parent defending themselves by mentioning that they kept their child(ren) fed, watered and sheltered.

And how morality was different back then*, and how we shouldn't judge the perpetrators according to today's standards as "they were only doing their best".

*This despite the fact that in every other sphere "god's morality is absolute, objective and unchanging". The hypocritical bástards.

robindch · 04-06-2015 7:20pm

Waterford Whispers zeros in with unerring efficiency:

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/06/04/nation-fondly-misremembers-how-that-whole-tuam-babies-thing-was-sorted-out/

Nation Fondly Misremembers How That Whole Tuam Babies Thing Was Sorted Out

Waterford Whispers wrote:

EARLIER this morning the Nation gathered together to fondly misremember the events surrounding the breaking of the Tuam babies scandal nearly a year ago, allowing for them to presume it has all been sorted out and everything is fine now. “Oh God yeah, do ya remember that? Every bloody country in the world covered it? But, sure look it, the Government stepped in – in fairness and so we all know what happened, and justice has been served,” Wicklow native Alison O’Brien erroneously asserted when she accidentally remembered it was nearly 12 months since the story came to prominence.

The Nation’s positive assertion that at least such a disturbing passage in recent Irish history had been fully explored and closure given to the country sits in contrast to fresh headlines that reveal as many as 1,000 children may have been illegally adopted to the United States. An apparent large scale human trafficking operation run by the church was brought to the attention of the HSE in 2012 with the possibility mooted that the church may have falsified death certificates for some children to facilitate them being sold to couples in the US, yet the Government took nearly another 3 years to act on the revelations.

“No, no, now I’m sure you’ve got that wrong. Sure that stuff is all done and dusted now and everyone is happy,” countered member of the public Roisin Cullen when told of the latest revelations. “I’m just glad we don’t have this cloud hanging over us anymore, and ya have to spare a thought for anyone from Tuam. The name was synonymous with that awful stuff, but at least some good came of it and we’ve got all the full facts,” added Sligo plumber Martin Shields.

It is still unclear as to why the Nation has falsely presumed everything has been sorted out, but it is speculated that it is simply an easier thing to contemplate than the possibile reality of living in a society in which being held to account is as real as a bare chested Gay Byrne battling a unicorn in a fight to the death on the moon. “I know it’s an odd thing to say but I’m proud that once the whole sorry news emerged, Ireland showed it had learned from previous church perpetrated scandals against women and children and had the proper framework in place to bring about a speedy inquiry and everything was put out there in the public domain,” explained Dublin man Henry Caulfield incorrectly.

“This was 800 children we’re talking about, so we weren’t going to take that lying down, it was great to see everyone band together and secure justice for the voiceless, the dead, the innocent,” offered Cavan father-of-two Paul Collins. Campaigners for the rights of children emerged in large numbers in the run up to the recent Marriage Equality referendum but it is believed none of them are banging down the doors of TV, radio and print publications in an effort to passionately discuss these shocking revelations at length.

18-06-2015 9:23am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rjzjFbPduE

This shouldn't be let slide.

3:20 onwards

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/06/18/i-was-put-into-a-bag-and-told-i-was-going-into-a-bog-hole/

aloyisious · 18-06-2015 12:46pm

I came across the above posted by a friend about the broadsheet article on facebook.

One comment to one of the men show's the mindless attitude of those from the shopfloor to the boardroom, when he visited his mum in the home once a month "you're coming too often", damn's the controllers out of their own mouths. Only one one thing now in my mind, **** them over and bury them with a stake through their corporate heart so they will never get control again in our country.

lazygal · 18-06-2015 12:58pm

aloyisious wrote: »

I came across the above posted by a friend about the broadsheet article on facebook.

One comment to one of the men show's the mindless attitude of those from the shopfloor to the boardroom, when he visited his mum in the home once a month "you're coming too often", damn's the controllers out of their own mouths. Only one one thing now in my mind, **** them over and bury them with a stake through their corporate heart so they will never get control again in our country.

It is no different to what families are told nowadays, such as those visiting family members in residential care settings. One of the main reasons we visited a mentally ill family member very regularly was to make sure the staff knew she had a family to speak out if necessary and that we were keeping a close eye on her.
When I was in hospital having my children I wanted my husband around me as much as possible, for the support and as a back up when decisions were made. I very much got the attitude from some staff that he was getting in the way of decision making, but I learned from my first experience to question every intervention or suggestion.
There's a real attitude of 'we know best' from many elements in our health and eduction system, and it was clear from some I encountered that they aren't used to questions being asked or decisions queried.

I cannot get over the man's story about the nettles. I cannot stop thinking of my own little boy hungry and having to suffer that, and being seperated from his mum. And then I cannot stop thinking that this same institution is in charge of most of the schools and will continue to be in charge when my children are old enough for school. Why don't Breda and David get angry about these children and their rights?

robindch · 18-06-2015 1:06pm

lazygal wrote: »

Why don't Breda and David get angry about these children and their rights?

Because BOB and DQ have no interest in children or their rights.

The two of them, together with rest of vocal mid-and far-right, are interested solely in maintaining the power and the glory of the institutional church.

eire4 · 18-06-2015 6:14pm

lazygal wrote: »

It is no different to what families are told nowadays, such as those visiting family members in residential care settings. One of the main reasons we visited a mentally ill family member very regularly was to make sure the staff knew she had a family to speak out if necessary and that we were keeping a close eye on her.
When I was in hospital having my children I wanted my husband around me as much as possible, for the support and as a back up when decisions were made. I very much got the attitude from some staff that he was getting in the way of decision making, but I learned from my first experience to question every intervention or suggestion.
There's a real attitude of 'we know best' from many elements in our health and eduction system, and it was clear from some I encountered that they aren't used to questions being asked or decisions queried.

I cannot get over the man's story about the nettles. I cannot stop thinking of my own little boy hungry and having to suffer that, and being seperated from his mum. And then I cannot stop thinking that this same institution is in charge of most of the schools and will continue to be in charge when my children are old enough for school. Why don't Breda and David get angry about these children and their rights?

I know from personal experience about how spot on you are to make the point that it is vitally important to have as much family contact and visits as possible so that the staff know this person has people who love and care about them and are paying attention to the care given.

Frito · 20-06-2015 11:59pm

aloyisious wrote: »

I came across the above posted by a friend about the broadsheet article on facebook.

One comment to one of the men show's the mindless attitude of those from the shopfloor to the boardroom, when he visited his mum in the home once a month "you're coming too often", damn's the controllers out of their own mouths. Only one one thing now in my mind, **** them over and bury them with a stake through their corporate heart so they will never get control again in our country.

"and I thought about Our Lord being crucified but my god these mothers, you know in the homes throughout Ireland, were crucified."

Really powerful imagery from PJ Haverty.

Baggy Trousers · 21-06-2015 12:04am

Frito wrote: »

"and I thought about Our Lord being crucified but my god these mothers, you know in the homes throughout Ireland, were crucified."

Really powerful imagery from PJ Haverty.

To be honest I don't understand how people darken the doors of any Catholic churches in Ireland these days. What they did to our men, women and especially children is demented. And don't start me on baptisms and communions - rational people still indoctrinating their children, given what we know, come across as very very weak to me no matter that the excuses are...

fisgon · 21-06-2015 11:36am

lazygal wrote: »

Why don't Breda and David get angry about these children and their rights?

Exactly, them and Mothers and Fathers matter..... There was so much talk before the referendum about the importance of children "having a mother and a father". Iona and MFM have been eerily, deathly silent about a Church system that was specifically designed to ensure that children were separated from their mothers, and that they would have no contact again in the future.

robindch · 18-09-2015 10:04am

Couple finds baby’s cemetery plot sold for adult graves

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/couple-finds-baby-s-cemetery-plot-sold-for-adult-graves-1.2355090

Irish Times wrote:

A Limerick couple who lost their premature baby son have discovered the plot he was buried in was later sold for adult burials. No record was kept of the children buried there.

Phil and Paul Walsh lost baby William when he was delivered close to six months into Phil’s pregnancy in December 1971. Mr Walsh brought his son to the city’s Mount Saint Lawrence cemetery in a small white box provided by the maternity hospital, and a gravedigger interred the baby in a part of the cemetery known as “The Innocents’ Plot”.

“I visited the plot a few times after that, but then life moved on. A couple of years ago, I went up again, and I couldn’t believe what I saw – there were adult graves where the Innocents Plot used to be,” Mrs Walsh told the Limerick Post. “The last time I was there, the gravedigger had put a crucifix on the wall to mark the plot, but that was gone. There was no sign that any of the babies had ever been buried there.”

Mr Walsh asked a gravedigger what had happened. “He said the plots had been sold for graves, that they needed the money. I asked him where were the babies who were buried there and what he said was terrible. He said ‘they dug them down deep’. I couldn’t believe it”. Although initially shocked, Mrs Walsh said she had moved to anger and frustration. “It’s been playing on my mind all this time, not just for us but for who knows how many parents who buried children there. How could this happen?”

The cemetery was owned by the Catholic Church and managed by a committee of five trustees, made up of priests of the parishes that used the graveyard. It passed into the ownership of the City Council in 1979. Following queries to the diocese, Bishop Brendan Leahy called in a retired senior Garda to investigate the issue. He met the Walshes, but Mrs Walsh said they are not happy with the outcome so far. “He told us there were no records kept at the time and the church’s thinking back then about unbaptised babies was different. That they were in limbo. This is terrible for parents who have children buried there”.

In a statement published in the Limerick Post, the Diocese of Limerick said it would erect a memorial at the plot to honour the memory of infants buried there. This follows a review of infant burials at the cemetery after the diocese was notified of the Walshes’ experience. “The matter was brought to the attention of the diocese in late April by the couple, and the review, which was carried out for the diocese by retired Garda chief superintendent Gerry Mahon, was started immediately,” the statement said.

Bishop Brendan Leahy said: “While we have not been able to get all the detail we would have wished due to the inadequacy of records, the process has, at least, brought to our attention the burial in consecrated grounds of these infants. “Arising from this we would like to commemorate these children by placing a memorial in the area where these burials are known to have taken place,” he said.

“ We have been in touch with Limerick City and County Council to that end and will meet with them shortly to explore options for this tribute.” Anyone affected by this matter can contact a support line at 083 3979167.

Lisha · 18-09-2015 10:12am

robindch wrote: »

Couple finds baby’s cemetery plot sold for adult graves

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/couple-finds-baby-s-cemetery-plot-sold-for-adult-graves-1.2355090

That is so sad

Cabaal · 18-09-2015 11:15am

I would say thats seriously shocking, but nothing at this stage in relation to how infants body's were buried years ago surprises me now.
I guess the memorial is supposed to just make everything better again,

robindch · 18-09-2015 11:18am

Cabaal wrote: »

I guess the memorial is supposed to just make everything better again,

It's a bit unbelievable - if they had any honor, they'd apologize and move the graves which went in on top after explaining to the relatives of the deceased what happened.

Instead, there's a quick and easy "memorial" of some kind and the status quo is maintained.

Cabaal · 18-09-2015 3:30pm

robindch wrote: »

It's a bit unbelievable - if they had any honor, they'd apologize and move the graves which went in on top after explaining to the relatives of the deceased what happened.

Instead, there's a quick and easy "memorial" of some kind and the status quo is maintained.

Yep, nice and quick solution for them,
Move on and hope the people shut up about it.

recedite · 18-09-2015 7:57pm

If he didn't pay money for the space in the innocents plot, then he hasn't got a leg to stand on. Churches aren't charities you know.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-09-2015 7:58pm

To be fair*, it's not clear yet whether this happened during the church's or the council's ownership.

* yeah, yeah I know.

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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