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The Romans

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    #32
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    It sure is :)


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    #33
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    They've started preliminary geophysics on this.

    http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/158.html

    I presume this will be smaller in scale than previous discovery program projects as the budget is nearly halved from its peak as far as i am aware

    Irish Times piece last week

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2012/0216/1224311839702.html


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    #34
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hi,

    Was up behind Newcastle/Lyons and noticed the remains of the old Dublin to Limerick road, I noticed how straight the roads are up there.
    Where I'm from there are Roman roads all over the place and these felt very similar.

    Worthy of some research perhaps.

    Cheers.


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    #35
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    cfuserkildare wrote: »
    Hi,

    Was up behind Newcastle/Lyons and noticed the remains of the old Dublin to Limerick road, I noticed how straight the roads are up there.
    Where I'm from there are Roman roads all over the place and these felt very similar.

    Worthy of some research perhaps.

    Cheers.
    There are a good few remarkably straight sections on Irish roads, alright.
    However, this straightness doesn't necessarily imply that they are of Roman origin.
    Quite often these long, straight sections are across expanses of bog or flat areas where there are no real obstacles to avoid.
    Kildare has many outstandingly straight stretches.
    That said, who's to dismiss the possibility that other roads in Ireland were built in a Roman style or after the Roman fashion?


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    #36
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Yeh,

    In Kildare especially as theres so much flat ground, but have you ever stood in the Great Hall on Tara hill and looked along the allignment of the cuttings and thought HMM, in a straight line with 1 of the little roads up there and over rough terrain too. Same with the road up at Oughterard/Athgoe, very straight yet up and down over rough ground.

    Worth a look.

    Cheers.


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    #37
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    There is a an assertion that one Roman general claimed to have brought the five warring kings to Tara and knocked their cantankerous heads together there.
    This was Maximus, Roman Governor of Britain (224 - 226 AD).
    He claimed to have set the five cornered pillar stone Ail na Maireann which marked the meeting point of the five Irish kingdoms, and to have built Cashel.
    see here

    I'm not so sure about how much truth any of these claims might have. Maximus certainly existed, but how these claims came about, and whether there is any truth in them, remains to be seen.
    Mind you, Seán P. O'Ríordán's excavations (1949?) unearthed a Roman lock, a seal, glass and pottery, at Tara. These were dated to between the first and third centuries AD.

    Make of that what you will.


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    #38
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    slowburner wrote: »
    There is a an assertion that one Roman general claimed to have brought the five warring kings to Tara and knocked their cantankerous heads together there.
    This was Maximus, Roman Governor of Britain (224 - 226 AD).
    He claimed to have set the five cornered pillar stone Ail na Maireann which marked the meeting point of the five Irish kingdoms, and to have built Cashel.
    see here

    I'm not so sure about how much truth any of these claims might have. Maximus certainly existed, but how these claims came about, and whether there is any truth in them, remains to be seen.
    Mind you, Seán P. O'Ríordán's excavations (1949?) unearthed a Roman lock, a seal, glass and pottery, at Tara. These were dated to between the first and third centuries AD.

    Make of that what you will.
    any roman pottery glass ect.is easily explained irish tribes often raided roman britain for slaves, goods ,or anything they considered of value,so it would be very strange if nothing roman was found in ireland,also remember,many of the slaves would be skilled in the roman ways,road building pottery ,and metal working.


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    #39
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Here's news of an upcoming conference on the Romans in Ireland, 20-21 October 2012.

    Until quite recently Roman material at Irish sites was widely regarded as anomolous or intrusive within the traditional archaeological narrative of the later Iron Age. With no expectation of contexts that might hold Roman evidence, readily identifiable material such as Samian ware, fibulae, coins and glass have been classified as 'intrusive' and often considered irrelevant to dating sequences at sites. More recent excavations, contemporary research and more recent finds have, however, prompted a reconsideration of Ireland's engagement with the Roman administration in the western provinces. The LIARI project was designed to investigate fully this formative period in early Irish history and has forged new collaborative research with leading scholars both inside and outside Ireland. The conference will provide an extraordinary opportunity for us re-evaulate the settlement, societies and economy of 'Ireland in a Roman world'.
    http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/new...onference.html



    (also posted this in History & Heritage forum)
    __________________


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    #40
    bolgios
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭bolgios


    There is also the fundamental question of who were the 'Romans' ? Recent research has shown that only a small part of the Roman population in the provinces were actually 'Roman' i.e. Italic:

    http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/hounds-of-the-empire-celtic-roman-legions-on-the-balkans/


    Most of the Roman population by the imperial period was made up of other ethnicities. The same was the case in Brittania, where a large amount of the 'Romans' were actually Dacians, Scythians, Celts, Germani etc.


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    #41
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Few would doubt that one of the principal reasons for the empire's success was the Romans' ability to recruit loyal troops from indigenous populations.

    As to how this might apply to the Romans in Ireland, the case of Tuathal Techmar is worth a look.

    120-145 01. Tuathal "Teachtmar" [Tuathal "Le Legitime"] [numeration in regnal-list starts over], reckoned "first" Kingof Midhe ["Middle Kingdom"]; = Baine, daughter of Sgaile “Balbh”, a British king. Tuathal was born in exile in Britain where his parents had taken refuge during a rebellion in Ireland in which his father was overthrown. The record in the "Lebor Gabala" says that Tuathal was born outside of Ireland and had not seen the country before he invaded it. All accounts say that Tuathal came from abroad with a foreign army. This army, called the "Fianna", was recruited from a colony of Irish exiles in Roman Britain, called "Fenians", whose ancestors had come to Britain a generation earlier during the rebellion in Ireland that had overthrown his father. In Year 120 the Roman Emperor Hadrian, who had come to Roman Britain to fight the Picts, responded to attacks by the Irish Picts by organizing the colony of Irish exiles [Gaels] in Roman Britain, called "Fenians", into a militia or legion, called the "Fianna", and gave command of it to the exiled Irish prince Tuathal "Teachtmar", who invaded Ireland against the Picts apparently with an imperial commission. Tuathal, nick-named "Teachtmar", the royal Milesian heir, captain of the "Fianna", almost certainly in Roman service, conquered Ireland on behalf of the Roman Empire, although Ireland was never formally incorporated into the Roman Empire. Tuathal with an army mostly of foreigners, accompanied by his mother, Ethne-Imgel, a British princess, came ashore at Malahide Bay, rallied the Irish people, and, challenged by the Pict-King [C]Ellim of Ulster, defeated the Picts, who had extended their domination from Scotland and Ulster over the whole of Ireland, and drove them back into Ulster. Tuathal marched on Tara, expelled the Cruithni [Picts], the Ligmuini, the Gailioin [Goidels], the Fir-Bolg, and the Domnainn, from County Meath, and occupied Tara, where he was acclaimed high-king. Tuathal slew his predecessor, King [C]Ellim of Ulster, in battle at Aichill, then, proceeded to campaign throughout Ireland against the rebellious Aitheach-Tuatha, and defeated them in a series of battles. Tuathal reduced Leinster to vassalage, and imposed his authority over Munster, Connacht, and Ulster.
    A new order was founded in Ireland by Tuathal, who carved-out a midland Irish state, "Midhe" [meaning "middle"], from portions of the Irish "four-quarters", which became a fifth Irish state, so that the "Ard-Ri" ["High-King"], crowned at Tara, could be independent of the other four provinces, with its capital city at Uisnech, which was then perceived to have been the centre of Ireland. Tuathal convened a general assembly of the Irish chieftains at Uisnech, in Connacht, where he was officially acknowledged king. He was inaugurated king at Tara, which was the custom. There, also, he convened the "Feis of Tara", as it was customary for every king to do that at the start of their reign, in which Tuathal renewed the laws, regulations, and ordinances of his predecessors, and pronounced new laws of his own to the nation. Then, at Tlachtgha, in Munster, which was the national-place of sacrifice, Tuathal called an assembly of the Irish Nation to meet to offer sacrifices to the old Irish pagan gods. The kingdom of Midhe also had inside its borders the passage grave of Newgrange [Bruig na Boinde], which contained the graves of the ancient Irish high-kings. It was Tuathal who first levied upon the Irish people the "boraimhe" ["tax"], which very likely originally was a tribute to Rome but soon turned into an Irish tax paid to the Irish high-king. The imposition of the "boraimhe" caused a national uprising, and Tuathal was killed in the Battle Moor attempting to suppress a rebellion of the Irish people under the leadership of Maol MacRochride, whom the Irish people placed on the Irish throne.

    http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/irishkings.wps.htm


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    #42
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Apologies in advance for dredging up this thread, but since the Late Iron Age and Roman Ireland project is active, I thought it would do no harm to keep abreast.
    For anyone interested in the project, full interview with Dr. Jacqueline Cahill-Wilson here:
    http://www.ancient.eu.com/news/1618/
    JCW: Actually, Roman and Romano-British artefacts have been found pretty much all over Ireland but they appear to cluster in discrete geographical regions and as I mentioned earlier this distribution does appear to correlate with areas rich in natural resources. Up until quite recently bath-taking, toga-wearing swarthy Italians was the only characterization of all things Roman, even for the province of Britannia. But more recent dialogues in archaeology around the concept of discrepant experiences - as to how the vast majority of ordinary people, not the elite, engaged with a new Roman cultural milieu and political administration even in the western Roman provinces - has provided a much needed paradigm shift in the study of the archaeology of the period at a local and regional level. What the archaeology has demonstrated is that there were many ways to be Roman, and not all of these are obvious within the archaeological record.


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    #43
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    This sort of crosses over/links in with the Unknown Metal Object thread but here it is anyway.....I have heard from a reliable source that a number of authentic roman coins were found just before Christmas in the Nore..


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    #44
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    pueblo wrote: »
    This sort of crosses over/links in with the Unknown Metal Object thread but here it is anyway.....I have heard from a reliable source that a number of authentic roman coins were found just before Christmas in the Nore..
    Indeed there were.
    See here


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    #45
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    slowburner wrote: »
    Or was it just 'a bridge too far' ?


    No wheat/grain is Empire-sized amounts.

    No tin in Empire-sized amounts.

    No Gold, ditto.

    ALL of which were readily available and could be exploited in Britannia.

    tac


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    #46
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    slowburner wrote: »
    My understanding of Tuathal Techtmar is that he was born to royal Irish parents who had escaped to safety in Britain.
    Anyway, he came back to Ireland on the warpath, but with an army constituted of Irish soldiers who had been trained in, or at least were familiar with, Roman military methods. Whether they had Roman weapons or military advisors with them is another matter.
    Thus far, archaeology would suggest not.
    There is however, the curious question of the Drumanagh finds which are in the vaults of the National Museum and can't be seen for love nor money.


    Many of our questions might be answered if the NMoI got its act together, and allowed the Irish people to SEE what their taxes have been paying to hide.

    tac


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    #47
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    tac foley wrote: »
    Many of our questions might be answered if the NMoI got its act together, and allowed the Irish people to SEE what their taxes have been paying to hide.

    tac

    In fairness I think there has been legal issues involved.


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    #48
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    tac foley wrote: »
    No wheat/grain is Empire-sized amounts.

    No tin in Empire-sized amounts.

    No Gold, ditto.

    ALL of which were readily available and could be exploited in Britannia.

    tac
    That gold wasn't present in Ireland (in Empire sized amounts) is not really known with any real certainty.
    There was certainly enough to manufacture some of the most profoundly beautiful golden artefacts known, and history is littered with mentions of gold hoards - many of which disappeared, probably melted down.
    Where this gold might have come from is the subject of ongoing research (University of Sheffield, I think, can't find the link) which has hinted at the possibility that the source of Irish gold was Croagh Patrick.
    No prehistoric gold mine has yet been found, and yet it seems unlikely that the quantities necessary to make these artefacts could have come from alluvial gold.
    Maybe evidence for prehistoric gold mining will surface one day, maybe not, but there's one thing you can be certain of - the Romans were well aware of Irish gold.


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    #49
    roughneck
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭roughneck


    Hi i agree , indeed there were old yarns told of them just picking up gold off the mountain by my grandfather ,and they have been there at least 3 or 4 hundred year , and tlll the day they passed they respected it as if it was a differant place , the ancients knew what we may never learn again .


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    #50
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    slowburner wrote: »
    That gold wasn't present in Ireland (in Empire sized amounts) is not really known with any real certainty.
    There was certainly enough to manufacture some of the most profoundly beautiful golden artefacts known, and history is littered with mentions of gold hoards - many of which disappeared, probably melted down.
    Where this gold might have come from is the subject of ongoing research (University of Sheffield, I think, can't find the link) which has hinted at the possibility that the source of Irish gold was Croagh Patrick.
    No prehistoric gold mine has yet been found, and yet it seems unlikely that the quantities necessary to make these artefacts could have come from alluvial gold.
    Maybe evidence for prehistoric gold mining will surface one day, maybe not, but there's one thing you can be certain of - the Romans were well aware of Irish gold.

    I, too, have seen the wondrous golden artefacts in museums in Ireland, but there were well-exploited gold mines in Wales - our wedding rings are made of the stuff, as are all my Welsh wife's ear-rings. However, the RE did not run on gold, it ran on grain to feed its military and population, and in that regard, Ireland, with its scattered population over what was then a more arboreal landscape, had nothing to offer that might prompt the Romans to establish a working and viable colony.

    Britannia, OTOH, had been an agricultural-based society for a couple of thousand years by that time, with widespread evidence of land-clearance going back to well before the building of the great stone circle in modern-day Wiltshire, even though New Grange substantially pre-dates it.

    tac


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    #51
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    tac foley wrote: »
    Many of our questions might be answered if the NMoI got its act together, and allowed the Irish people to SEE what their taxes have been paying to hide.

    tac
    The Drumanagh material has been fraught with legal difficulties and complexity, however, I understand that negotiations are taking place and there are grounds for cautious optimism.
    If memory serves, copper ingots were included in the Drumanagh finds but it is not yet known if these were imported or prepared for export. The ingots are to undergo geochemical analysis to determine their origin.
    http://www.bris.ac.uk/research/impact-stories/2012/discovery-ireland.html

    Dr. Jacqueline Cahill Wilson's talk and update on the LIARI project's findings last Saturday (20th April), was a truly exciting event. Foolishly, I didn't take notes, so the main conclusions reported below are from memory.

    Roman finds in Ireland have been subjected to a complete re-assessment. Conventional wisdom on most of these finds has been that they were either brought back by travelling Irish natives or even deposited much later by mischievous Romanophiles.
    Some of these finds were looked at in terms of their stratigraphic context during the re-assessment, and it has been shown that deposition was broadly contemporary with the artefact.
    Preliminary strontium analysis of bones from burials previously thought to have been 'Roman style', have shown that those interred were not from Ireland.
    One of the most important conclusions drawn, is that the Nore and possibly the Suir and Slaney, were important trade routes with Roman Britain.
    The prevailing views on Roman interaction with Ireland are beginning to look decidedly shaky. At the very least, significant doubt is being cast on past interpretation of Roman finds in Ireland.
    This talk was simply a 'taster' for the forthcoming publication which is probably still a year away yet.


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    #52
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    slowburner wrote: »
    The Drumanagh material has been fraught with legal difficulties and complexity, however, I understand that negotiations are taking place and there are grounds for cautious optimism.
    If memory serves, copper ingots were included in the Drumanagh finds but it is not yet known if these were imported or prepared for export. The ingots are to undergo geochemical analysis to determine their origin.
    http://www.bris.ac.uk/research/impact-stories/2012/discovery-ireland.html

    Dr. Jacqueline Cahill Wilson's talk and update on the LIARI project's findings last Saturday (20th April), was a truly exciting event. Foolishly, I didn't take notes, so the main conclusions reported below are from memory.

    Roman finds in Ireland have been subjected to a complete re-assessment. Conventional wisdom on most of these finds has been that they were either brought back by travelling Irish natives or even deposited much later by mischievous Romanophiles.
    Some of these finds were looked at in terms of their stratigraphic context during the re-assessment, and it has been shown that deposition was broadly contemporary with the artefact.
    Preliminary strontium analysis of bones from burials previously thought to have been 'Roman style', have shown that those interred were not from Ireland.
    One of the most important conclusions drawn, is that the Nore and possibly the Suir and Slaney, were important trade routes with Roman Britain.
    The prevailing views on Roman interaction with Ireland are beginning to look decidedly shaky. At the very least, significant doubt is being cast on past interpretation of Roman finds in Ireland.
    This talk was simply a 'taster' for the forthcoming publication which is probably still a year away yet.

    Very exciting! Did they say how many burials are being tested with strontium analysis? Their time range?


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    #53
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    robp wrote: »
    Very exciting! Did they say how many burials are being tested with strontium analysis? Their time range?
    Not as such. This short talk was really only a preview of the forthcoming publication.


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    #54
    Neutronale
    Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭Neutronale


    tac foley wrote: »
    I, too, have seen the wondrous golden artefacts in museums in Ireland, but there were well-exploited gold mines in Wales - our wedding rings are made of the stuff, as are all my Welsh wife's ear-rings. However, the RE did not run on gold, it ran on grain to feed its military and population, and in that regard, Ireland, with its scattered population over what was then a more arboreal landscape, had nothing to offer that might prompt the Romans to establish a working and viable colony.

    Britannia, OTOH, had been an agricultural-based society for a couple of thousand years by that time, with widespread evidence of land-clearance going back to well before the building of the great stone circle in modern-day Wiltshire, even though New Grange substantially pre-dates it.

    tac

    I must say I've never accepted this simplistic idea that the Romans didnt come here because there was nothing here worth having.

    From memory I seem to recall the Romans thought the same about Britain. I think this idea has been proposed and promoted by the British imperialists who always place Britain on a high pedestal and sh1t from it regularly on their neighbour.

    Ireland had been a pastoral and arable economy for 4,500 years by the time the Roman plunderers laid eyes on it, farming sheep, goats and cattle while wheat and barley were the principal crops cultivated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Ireland

    Did you just pluck your facts out of thin air?


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    #55
    Neutronale
    Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭Neutronale


    The oldest known field system in the world Tac...
    From around 4500 BC a Neolithic package that included cereal cultivars, housing culture (similar to those of the same period in Scotland) and stone monuments arrived in Ireland. Sheep, goats, cattle and cereals were imported from southwest continental Europe, and the population then rose significantly. At the Céide Fields in County Mayo, an extensive Neolithic field system (arguably the oldest known in the world) has been preserved beneath a blanket of peat. Consisting of small fields separated from one another by dry-stone walls, the Céide Fields were farmed for several centuries between 3500 and 3000 BC. Wheat and Barley were the principal crops cultivated.


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    #56
    markesmith
    Registered Users Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭markesmith


    I think tac's point is that Ireland, lacking a system of towns and cities, would have been more difficult to colonise in an economically efficient way.


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    #57
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    The subject of the Romans in Ireland seems to go in and out of fashion.
    Link to a recent essay that draws many of the various strands together.

    And if you would like to read more on the subject...
    http://www.wordwellbooks.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1616&Itemid=9


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    #58
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    Richard Warner at a conference on Archaeological Research in the Boyne Valley on Saturday spoke about a sub-rectangular fortification near Newgrange that he believes was Roman (based on its morphology and a very crude piece of Roman pottery).


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    #59
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Meathlass wrote: »
    Richard Warner at a conference on Archaeological Research in the Boyne Valley on Saturday spoke about a sub-rectangular fortification near Newgrange that he believes was Roman (based on its morphology and a very crude piece of Roman pottery).
    You have to admire him for sticking to his guns.
    I spoke with him not too long ago on the subject of Roman Ireland and contrary to his reputation, I found him to be enormously helpful, open minded and without pre-conceptions. I doubt anyone has carried out deeper research into the enigmatic Tuathal than he. LIARI, I'm sure, owe him a great deal.


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    #60
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Isotope analysis from two 4th/6th C burials in a multi-phase cemetery near Bettystown Co. Meath indicate that one was from Scandinavia and the other from Portugal/N. Africa.
    The crouched inhumations contrasted with the other 53 inhumations. One was a child and the other a young adult female who had a rock placed on her abdomen.


    http://irisharchaeology.ie/2015/03/immigrant-burials-in-late-iron-age-meath/


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    #61
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    slowburner wrote: »
    Isotope analysis from two 4th/6th C burials in a multi-phase cemetery near Bettystown Co. Meath indicate that one was from Scandinavia and the other from Portugal/N. Africa.
    The couched inhumations contrasted with the other 53 inhumations. One was a child and the other a young adult female who had a rock placed on her abdomen.


    http://irisharchaeology.ie/2015/03/immigrant-burials-in-late-iron-age-meath/

    For the amateurs among us can you spell out what this means? Are these looking like Roman style burials?


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