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Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

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    #902
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Right now the term "Gunboat Diplomacy" springs to mind...


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    #903
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    do you think they'd fly up to the edge of sovereign airspace, taunt us and then fly off? .

    Russia didn't do that to us they did that to the UK


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    #904
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    expectationlost wrote: »
    Russia didn't do that to us they did that to the UK

    Oh come on. Our media threw a bitch fit, and demanded an explanation, and they came back a month later. You think that's not a big F you to us?


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    #905
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    America asks us first. I have no problem with Russia spying on America, or America spying on Russia. It's also a false equivalency. America is spying on their geopolitical rival. Russia was blustering around us, a neutral State.

    We're also not talking about Russia's or America's actions around Sweden, we're talking about Russia's actions around Ireland.


    Oh, and pray tell, how many of those American reconnaissance flights carried ("allegedly") a nuclear warhead onboard?

    well they use to fly bombs all the time around the north near Russia, now they use subs?

    would America not ever have flown nuclear bombs perhaps in our area of air traffic control to the south of Ireland (if its always existed?) when moving bombs to the UK or back?


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    #906
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    expectationlost wrote: »
    well they use to fly bombs all the time around the north near Russia, now they use subs?

    would America not ever have flown nuclear bombs perhaps in our area of air traffic control to the south of Ireland (if its always existed?) when moving bombs to the UK or back?

    I have no problems with Russia and American antagonizing each other.

    Also, no, they wouldn't have. Britain had its own deterrent, it was only after the Polaris was discontinued that they amalgamated their systems with the American trident missiles. Those missiles are also chosen at random, from American bases, and place on British ships. Britain has 192(?) of the missiles in American stockpiles, and provides their own nuclear warheads.


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    #907
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I have no problems with Russia and American antagonizing each other.

    Also, no, they wouldn't have. Britain had its own deterrent, it was only after the Polaris was discontinued that they amalgamated their systems with the American trident missiles. Those missiles are also chosen at random, from American bases, and place on British ships. Britain has 192(?) of the missiles in American stockpiles, and provides their own nuclear warheads.

    hmm i was reading up on 24hr cold war nuclear flight operations and was reading about American was moving bombs to and from the UK southern (US) air bases.


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    #908
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Dear God the Wes Cork Times! What next, the Skibbereen Eagle!


    Desmond Travers is a retired Irish Army Colonel and former Commandant of the Military College - he has written extensively about this and talked to then serving Soviet military and diplomatic personnel as well as continuing his research into his retirement (when not working as Director of Institute for International Criminal Investigations or as a Member of United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict).

    He has found that the Soviet 'world view' did not encompass in Ireland - they had nothing targeted at us because in their view there was nothing to target. NATO / the West tended to over-estimate Soviet intentions - for example the UK identified over 100 targets it reckoned the Soviets would attempt to hit in a nuclear exchange. They estimated that about 150 missiles were pointed at the country - when Cold War ended and researchers obtained access to archives they found that the USSR had 11 missiles pointed at the UK......




    Hes off his head if he thinks the gateway between Europe and the US would not have been targeted, Irish Intel. say otherwise.


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    #909
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    expectationlost wrote: »
    hmm i was reading up on 24hr cold war nuclear flight operations and was reading about American was moving bombs to and from the UK southern (US) air bases.

    I've not read much about that. I would've assumed Britain would've refused the U.S. to place nuclear warheads on their territory. Heck, why would the U.S. put nuclear weapons there?

    They had them in Turkey, Italy and West Germany... Was there really need to have them in Britain, or was Britain just the way-station?

    Anyway, if they did fly through Irish airspace, then the Irish Government should've been up in arms about it.


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    #910
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    Hes off his head if he thinks the gateway between Europe and the US would not have been targeted, Irish Intel. say otherwise.

    Shannon is not the gateway to anywhere - it is not an essential re-fueling stop. Even during the Cold War, REFORGER operations weren't predicated on having a stop available in Ireland - at 'best' Shannon might have been an alternate for any a/c suffering engine trouble or needing to divert for reasons of emergency.

    All this has been explained to you and yet you continue to resurrect it.....

    and I presume you can link to what 'Irish Intel'* are saying.

    Nice, by the way, that would describe a former senior DF officer as 'off his head' when recounting his first hand experiences - stay classy.




    *are they based in Leixlip :D


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    #911
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Shannon is not the gateway to anywhere - it is not an essential re-fueling stop. Even during the Cold War, REFORGER operations weren't predicated on having a stop available in Ireland - at 'best' Shannon might have been an alternate for any a/c suffering engine trouble or needing to divert for reasons of emergency.

    All this has been explained to you and yet you continue to resurrect it.....

    and I presume you can link to what 'Irish Intel'* are saying.

    Nice, by the way, that would describe a former senior DF officer as 'off his head' when recounting his first hand experiences - stay classy.




    *are they based in Leixlip :D



    One loan voice offering a counter opinion. The Irish intel. services are lying ?

    The Soviets would leave Shannon a huge logistical hub for the US untouched, but flatten everywhere else :rolleyes: naive in the extreme. 800,000 US troops went through Shannon during the Iraq war.


    "Stamped 'Secret' and titled 'The Strategic Importance of Ireland to the UK in Times of War', it was drawn up in preparation for a feared outbreak of atomic war between the Soviets and the western world."


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-plan-to-muster-army-of-500000-in-event-of-nuclear-war-ireland-was-ready-to-help-out-uk-26806742.html


    Despite its official neutrality, the report warns that Ireland may not have been spared a nuclear strike, with Shannon and Bantry Bay pinpointed as likely targets.

    Under such a scenario, European governments exiled by a Soviet invasion and "free forces" could have taken refuge in Ireland and continue their struggle. The intelligence services, based at Army headquarters, write that the UK had long been seriously concerned that Ireland's warning and monitoring system was "very unreliable".

    The report reveals that UK's nuclear Warning and Monitoring Organisation (UKWMO) did not accept there would not have been any direct strikes on Ireland in the event of a war.


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    #912
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    One loan voice offering a counter opinion. The Irish intel. services are lying ?

    The Soviets would leave Shannon a huge logistical hub for the US untouched, but flatten everywhere else :rolleyes: naive in the extreme.


    "Stamped 'Secret' and titled 'The Strategic Importance of Ireland to the UK in Times of War', it was drawn up in preparation for a feared outbreak of atomic war between the Soviets and the western world."


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-plan-to-muster-army-of-500000-in-event-of-nuclear-war-ireland-was-ready-to-help-out-uk-26806742.html


    Despite its official neutrality, the report warns that Ireland may not have been spared a nuclear strike, with Shannon and Bantry Bay pinpointed as likely targets.

    I've already provided a link to the source I've mentioned - perhaps you could see yourself to linking to this Irish Intel source you keep mentioning - is it G2?

    The identification of Shannon and Bantry - was by the UK authorities, as I said when access was finally obtained to the Soviet archives they found out that the Soviets were only interested in hitting counterforce not countervalue targets - which is why the UK thought the Soviets were targeting over 100 sites in the UK when in reality they were only looking at 11.

    Shannon would not have been a 'huge' logistical hub- how would it work? They were going to fly aircraft in, unload and re-load them? Into an airport with no air defence infrastructure and outside the established communications nets. Never mind one where they had no pre-positioned fuel, no fighter support and no ground security - Frankly I would have thought a former member of the RAF Regt such as yourself would have a better appreciation of airfield security.

    When the transports had more than enough range to overfly Ireland and land personnel close to where the pre-positioned stores were.

    Can you point to one REFORGER document that identifies Shannon as a hub, logistics or otherwise? Surely if it was as important as you are making out they would have had at least some exercises or element of an exercise there?


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    #913
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I've already provided a link to the source I've mentioned - perhaps you could see yourself to linking to this Irish Intel source you keep mentioning - is it G2?

    The identification of Shannon and Bantry - was by the UK authorities, as I said when access was finally obtained to the Soviet archives they found out that the Soviets were only interested in hitting counterforce not countervalue targets - which is why the UK thought the Soviets were targeting over 100 sites in the UK when in reality they were only looking at 11.

    Shannon would not have been a 'huge' logistical hub- how would it work? They were going to fly aircraft in, unload and re-load them? Into an airport with no air defence infrastructure and outside the established communications nets. Never mind one where they had no pre-positioned fuel, no fighter support and no ground security - Frankly I would have thought a former member of the RAF Regt such as yourself would have a better appreciation of airfield security.

    When the transports had more than enough range to overfly Ireland and land personnel close to where the pre-positioned stores were.

    Can you point to one REFORGER document that identifies Shannon as a hub, logistics or otherwise? Surely if it was as important as you are making out they would have had at least some exercises or element of an exercise there?




    And how do you think were more clued up on the Soviet threat, GCHQ and MI6 or some Col. in Clonmel barracks whos word you take ?


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    #914
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I've not read much about that. I would've assumed Britain would've refused the U.S. to place nuclear warheads on their territory. Heck, why would the U.S. put nuclear weapons there?

    They had them in Turkey, Italy and West Germany... Was there really need to have them in Britain, or was Britain just the way-station?

    Anyway, if they did fly through Irish airspace, then the Irish Government should've been up in arms about it.

    2008 - FAS - Reuters http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/06/26/uk-britain-nuclear-idUKL2661641120080626
    The Federation of American Scientists, which studies the U.S. nuclear arsenal, said in a report that Washington had removed its last atomic bombs from the Royal Air Force base at Lakenheath, where they had been stationed since 1954.


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    #915
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    And how do you think were more clued up on the Soviet threat, GCHQ and MI6 or some Col. in Clonmel barracks whos word you take ?

    Well do you have any links to any of those.

    The REFORGER documents I mentioned are in the National Security Archive in the US (not all them obviously but a selection)

    And the Colonel in question - despite your best attempts to denigrate a senior officer - was, as I mentioned, a Commandant of the Military College - so I'm guessing he can speak on such matters with some authority.

    I have to say, I used to read a lot of techno-thrillers (Larry Bond, Tom Clancy, Harold Coyle) and not one of them on the more fanciful flight of fancy came even close to matching the fantasies you spout - actually one did - "Dark Rose" where the Arabs seize control of Ireland to trade it for Palestine.

    Now, feel free to respond to this post be including some links to Irish Intel (whoever they are), GCHQ (who deal with communications security) and MI6 (who practice espionage) - what either of the latter two have to do with threat assessment I'm sure you can also explain.


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    #916
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    Jawgap wrote: »
    We are not on the target list and even in the 1980s we were never on the target list - a fact confirmed by Soviet officers who visited the Curragh in late 1980s.

    They were hardly going to tell the truth.


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    #917
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Ren2k7 wrote: »
    They were hardly going to tell the truth.

    Put it another way then - why waste even one nuke on a country that wasn't even part of NATO?

    As I said, when they got access to the archives they found the Soviets were targeting counterforce locations - what location in Ireland would have met the definition of counterforce?


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    #918
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Senator Professor John Crown is on the case
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2015-02-24a.41&s=airspace#g72
    John Crown (Independent) My next question is very relevant, in geographic terms, to the Deputy Leader, who hails from an Atlantic perch located in the south west. I do not mean to precipitate any international incident but in recent weeks there has been press coverage in respect of bombers from a foreign power - at the height of the Cold War these were routinely used to carry nuclear warheads - flying down the west coast, close to Irish airspace. During a discussion which took place on radio, I heard a defence analyst stating that Ireland does not have air defence radar of any description and that it only has the capacity to detect aircraft with operational transponders. In other words, we are asking any foreign powers, terrorists or invaders that wish to make incursions into our airspace to kindly turn on their transponders prior to doing so in order that we might be alerted to their presence. Will the Leader clarify the position in respect of this matter? In light of the fact that Ireland has a long coastline, is it the case that the authorities here have no way of knowing if an aircraft is flying overhead if said aircraft does not have its transponder switched on?

    the answer is


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    #919
    Todd Toddington III
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭Todd Toddington III


    expectationlost wrote: »
    Senator Professor John Crown is on the case
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2015-02-24a.41&s=airspace#g72


    and as has been pointed out the answer is yes, no primary radar. so...?

    But we do have primary radar though. It just cant see as far as ssr radar. All the civil aviation radar heads are equipped with it. We've no capability to determine flight level however on a/c with transponders turned off.


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    #920
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Todd Toddington III wrote: »
    But we do have primary radar though. It just cant see as far as ssr radar. All the civil aviation radar heads are equipped with it. We've no capability to determine flight level however on a/c with transponders turned off.

    ok so how far can our primary radar it see off the (west) coast?


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    #921
    Todd Toddington III
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭Todd Toddington III


    expectationlost wrote: »
    ok so how far can our primary radar it see off the (west) coast?

    60ish miles from the radar head so not very far considering an ssr transponder can be picked up 250 miles away. There's one in cork, shannon, dublin and two in the northwest - donegal and I think the other is in sligo

    Edit. I guess on average maybe 50 nautical miles off the west coast


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    #922
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Todd Toddington III wrote: »
    60ish miles from the radar head so not very far considering an ssr transponder can be picked up 250 miles away. There's one in cork, shannon, dublin and two in the northwest - donegal and I think the other is in sligo

    Edit. I guess on average maybe 50 nautical miles off the west coast


    well I guess people I have been reading here and elsewhere have comparing our/our military's primary radar coverage to that of the UK military...

    that we don't have a country wide defense radar?


    or he mixing up our airspace with irish controlled airspace, he was himself careful to say Irish controlled airspace but he said once "Russians should just be told to get out of our airspace'" and of course thats the headline Newstalk they used when the article first went up.
    Newstalk Lunchtime ‏@LunchtimeNT Feb 19
    On air :@TomClonan ' The Russians should just be told to get out of our airspace' .http://newstalk.ie/player


    so this is what Crown was listening to http://www.newstalk.com/Russia-a-real-and-present-danger-to-NATO-states
    "We cannot see them, that's the problem. We're probably the only country in the EU that cannot see into our own airspace with primary radar."


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    #923
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Todd Toddington III wrote: »
    But we do have primary radar though. It just cant see as far as ssr radar. All the civil aviation radar heads are equipped with it. We've no capability to determine flight level however on a/c with transponders turned off.

    was referencing TC
    Dr Tom Clonan @tomclonan
    @lostexpectation Which source do you trust the most? IAA have NO primary radar. How do they know where the Russians were? Who told them?
    http://twitter.com/TomClonan/status/565570967234437120
    Dr Tom Clonan @tomclonan
    @mralphleonard @dubinulster I think we're the only EU member that cannot 'See' into its own airspace with PRIMARY radar. https://twitter.com/TomClonan/status/565581151969239043


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    #924
    Todd Toddington III
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭Todd Toddington III


    Tom clonan might market himself as a security analysist but he's wrong in this regard. now military radar equipment is a different story, I think they use civil aviation feeds. hardly expect them to have they're own really considering budget constraints and the fact our radar heads work just fine


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    #925
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Todd Toddington III wrote: »
    Tom clonan might market himself as a security analysist but he's wrong in this regard. now military radar equipment is a different story, I think they use civil aviation feeds. hardly expect them to have they're own really considering budget constraints and the fact our radar heads work just fine

    I read about the difference between primary and secondary reader but the line that came out at the time of these flights was that we (only) knew because the UK (perhaps via Norway/Denmark) told us, well of course they would know before us... because they came over from their direction.

    although the january flight was said to be at 50 nautical and the february flight at 25.

    I wonder how close they were last october, which was another time they flew down towards portugal


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    #926
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    It's funny, the usual hand-wringers are worried about Tu-95s carrying weapons in Irish controlled airspace......

    ......and shrieking hysterically about our inability to 'defend' the country.

    Not one has mentioned the 'boomers' arriving in and out of Faslane - I reckon they regularly transit Irish waters (outside the exclusive economic zone), but not a word has been mentioned about them, even though they carry up 16 D-5s - although they usually only carry 8 with 40 warheads.


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    #927
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It's funny, the usual hand-wringers are worried about Tu-95s carrying weapons in Irish controlled airspace......

    ......and shrieking hysterically about our inability to 'defend' the country.

    Not one has mentioned the 'boomers' arriving in and out of Faslane - I reckon they regularly transit Irish waters (outside the exclusive economic zone), but not a word has been mentioned about them, even though they carry up 16 D-5s - although they usually only carry 8 with 40 warheads.

    I would imagine if we had a way of detecting if British SSBNs more would be said of it.


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    #928
    Todd Toddington III
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭Todd Toddington III


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It's funny, the usual hand-wringers are worried about Tu-95s carrying weapons in Irish controlled airspace......

    ......and shrieking hysterically about our inability to 'defend' the country.

    Not one has mentioned the 'boomers' arriving in and out of Faslane - I reckon they regularly transit Irish waters (outside the exclusive economic zone), but not a word has been mentioned about them, even though they carry up 16 D-5s - although they usually only carry 8 with 40 warheads.

    Sure if no one can detect it then its not there! 😉


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    #929
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It's funny, the usual hand-wringers are worried about Tu-95s carrying weapons in Irish controlled airspace......

    ......and shrieking hysterically about our inability to 'defend' the country.

    Not one has mentioned the 'boomers' arriving in and out of Faslane - I reckon they regularly transit Irish waters (outside the exclusive economic zone), but not a word has been mentioned about them, even though they carry up 16 D-5s - although they usually only carry 8 with 40 warheads.

    Yea, because that's the real worry here... That Britain might nuke us, and have the radioactive material blow across the Irish Sea and poison millions of their own people...


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    #930
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It's funny, the usual hand-wringers are worried about Tu-95s carrying weapons in Irish controlled airspace......

    ......and shrieking hysterically about our inability to 'defend' the country.

    Not one has mentioned the 'boomers' arriving in and out of Faslane - I reckon they regularly transit Irish waters (outside the exclusive economic zone),

    outside?


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    #931
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Yea, because that's the real worry here... That Britain might nuke us, and have the radioactive material blow across the Irish Sea and poison millions of their own people...

    Well, let's face it if the Chicoutimi had been a nuclear sub instead of a diesel-electric there might have been a different outcome to that incident.


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