Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

Hazys · 21-01-2015 8:45pm

http://books.google.com/books?id=wuWJhkUqRKEC&lpg=PA58&vq=doctor&pg=PA67#v=onepage&q=doctor&f=true

Most fans don’t know it, but before the game we would doctor the footballs that would be used. Until the season of 2000 it was up to the home team to provide twenty-four game balls to the officials for each game. A brand-new NFL football straight from the factory is not easy to throw or catch. It’s rock hard and very slippery. So in the privacy of the locker room before the game, players would take the footballs and rub them and scrub them to remove the glaze, or deflate them, then pump them up with air real big to stretch the leather. On some teams the kickers would put them through a cycle in the dryer. Some teams did this, but naturally not the Steelers, because we were righteous folk who would never stretch the rules, and when these other teams—not the Steelers—were finished, they would put them back in the plastic wrapping and right back in the box. Some teams—who were not the Steelers—after the officials had checked and approved the game balls, would let out a couple of pound of air to make it easier for the quarterback to grip it. A little less air would make the ball spongier. It was what might be called a perceived advantage-both teams played with the same ball.

Looks like more and more examples of other teams doing it will come out (although this is a lot older incident).

Hazys · 21-01-2015 8:54pm

Seems a little crazy that the NFL would allow teams provide their own balls so each QB could treat the ball to their preference and not expect them to be altered in a way that didn't bend the rules.

Its looking like its common practice for QBs to try and get away as much as they can and it seems like the Refs allowed it...this might be the only thing that saves the Patriots.

I can only imagine that the rules will be massively changed this off season as the whole situation seems crazy to me.

kryogen · 21-01-2015 9:00pm

The rules were changed....can't remember when, but it was Peyton Manning saying he wanted the balls to be able to be deflated a bit more which introduced the limits I believe

Tesco Massacre · 21-01-2015 9:08pm

It's in the best interests of the football team.

Hazys · 21-01-2015 9:26pm

Rich Gannon:

Ask any quarterback, and this is a non-issue. Everybody does something, to them. It's like a pitcher, he wants the ball a certain way. Take Tiger Woods, you wouldn't tell him after he's been hitting a 10.5 degree loft all week with a certain ball that, 'Hey, now we're going to switch your ball out.' That's his thing, and it's that specific feel that you want. That football is how we make our living and it sounds crazy, but it's a sacred thing. It's got to be a certain way.

Boomer Esiason:

It really does seem totally ridiculous that this story has been blown so far out of proportion. If you look at the footballs that the quarterbacks are playing with and throwing for the last six or seven years, just realize that everybody is doing the same thing.

Donovan McNabb:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/donovan-mcnabb-explains-patriots-deflate-gate/video/gm-5372263

poldebruin · 21-01-2015 10:16pm

With regards to people wondering about levels of evidence and plausible deniability....from the Washington Post.

Goodell wrote in a March 2008 memo to the league’s competition committee that he would impose tougher penalties for future violations of the competitive-balance rules.

“Too often, competitive violations have gone unpunished because conclusive proof of the violation was lacking,” Goodell wrote in that memo. “I believe we should reconsider the standard of proof to be applied in such cases, and make it easier for a competitive violation to be established. And where a violation is shown, I intend to impose more stringent penalties on both the club and the responsible individual(s). I will also be prepared to make greater use of draft choice forfeiture in appropriate cases. I believe this will have the effect of deterring violations and making people more willing to report violations on a timely basis.”

...now, in light of the Ray Rice scandal, perhaps Goodell will thread more lightly, but as long as the NFL punishes the club and not an individual, I don't think there will be any legal issues with any sanction meted out. i.e. no fines or suspensions for individuals, but draft picks and cap penalties would be fair game.

It would be worth remembering that the Cowboys and Redskins were severely punished (and they didn't even break any rules) during the uncapped year (between the old and new CBA, I think), when it was found they had used the year to overload contracts, and broke a kind of 'gentleman's agreement' that they (and they other 30 teams) would not do so.

frostie500 · 21-01-2015 10:23pm

Alright lads, keep it on the topic in hand

poldebruin · 21-01-2015 10:58pm

Where has it gone off topic or were posts removed?

Hazys · 21-01-2015 11:00pm

@MattLeinartQB

Every team tampers with the footballs, Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!

The more NFL people talk, the more it gets downplayed as common practice.

The more sports journalists and talking heads talk, the more scandalous it gets.

eagle eye · 21-01-2015 11:06pm

There will be loads of people coming out defending this but the haters will just wait until that dies down a bit and then get back on their soap box and start nagging about how the Patriots, and only the Patriots, cheated.

You just gotta accept that there are many people who just love to hate the Patriots and the media just love to create a scandal even if the topic is not worthy of being a scandal.

frostie500 · 21-01-2015 11:09pm

Hazys wrote: »

@MattLeinartQB

Every team tampers with the footballs, Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!

The more NFL people talk, the more it gets downplayed as common practice.

The more sports journalists and talking heads talk, the more scandalous it gets.

The way that I look at this is that every team tampers with the balls because they're allowed to do it. However, if you tamper beyond the regulations you should be punished. The balls are checked by the umpires and then teams have a certain timespan to work their balls and get them ready but if you do something beyond the regs and are found to have intentionally done this then the team should be punished.

In other sports, like F1 or something, you submit your car to the scrutineers at the start of the weekend. They'll check the car from top to bottom and then certify that the car is 100% legal. If however at any point over the weekend the car is brought in to be checked again and something is found illegal the team are punished. It's the same in the NFL and we'll find out the full story of what happened in the next few days, hopefully it'll show that the Pats didn't do anything wrong but until then the media will run with this story as they are doing.

padraig_f · 21-01-2015 11:21pm

Hazys wrote: »

@MattLeinartQB

Every team tampers with the footballs, Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!

The more NFL people talk, the more it gets downplayed as common practice.

The more sports journalists and talking heads talk, the more scandalous it gets.

Gimme a break, it's literally written in the rules for the footballs to be within a certain range of pressure. Everyone agrees that reducing the pressure of the football gives an advantage to the offensive team.

So it's against the rules, and it gives a competitive advantage. That's the dictionary definition of cheating. And according to you, it's a non-issue.

Hazys · 21-01-2015 11:21pm

frostie500 wrote: »

The way that I look at this is that every team tampers with the balls because they're allowed to do it. However, if you tamper beyond the regulations you should be punished. The balls are checked by the umpires and then teams have a certain timespan to work their balls and get them ready but if you do something beyond the regs and are found to have intentionally done this then the team should be punished.

In other sports, like F1 or something, you submit your car to the scrutineers at the start of the weekend. They'll check the car from top to bottom and then certify that the car is 100% legal. If however at any point over the weekend the car is brought in to be checked again and something is found illegal the team are punished. It's the same in the NFL and we'll find out the full story of what happened in the next few days, hopefully it'll show that the Pats didn't do anything wrong but until then the media will run with this story as they are doing.

The problem is most NFL people are saying its not a big deal. The Pats should be punished and in my opinion it should be minimal considering how widespread this is appears to and considering that nothing came of the Panthers heating their footballs after being told not to. I think the rules have will be changed in the off season too.

But on the other side of the coin, the media is going crazy, calling for Pats to be kicked out of the Super Bowl, BB to be fired or suspended, etc. Considering how easily influenced Goodell is by the media, i don't think it'll be a fair punishment.

Do you think if Goodell comes out and fines the Patriots $25,000 and a 7th round pick that will fly with the media when they are expecting BB to be suspended for a year?

kryogen · 21-01-2015 11:30pm

padraig_f wrote: »

Gimme a break, it's literally written in the rules for the footballs to be within a certain range of pressure. Everyone agrees that reducing the pressure of the football gives an advantage to the offensive team.

So it's against the rules, and it gives a competitive advantage. That's the dictionary definition of cheating. And according to you, it's a non-issue.

Is your head stuck under a rock? It is certainly not JUST according to him that its a non issue.

kryogen · 21-01-2015 11:32pm

Hazys wrote: »

The problem is most NFL people are saying its not a big deal. The Pats should be punished and in my opinion it should be minimal considering how widespread this is appears to and considering that nothing came of the Panthers heating their footballs after being told not to. I think the rules have will be changed in the off season too.

But on the other side of the coin, the media is going crazy, calling for Pats to be kicked out of the Super Bowl, BB to be fired or suspended, etc. Considering how easily influenced Goodell is by the media, i don't think it'll be a fair punishment.

Do you think if Goodell comes out and fines the Patriots $25,000 and a 7th round pick that will fly with the media when they are expecting BB to be suspended for a year?

Yes I think it will be a soft punishment, simply because if too much of an example is made in this case (assuming guilty is the verdict) then plenty more will come out of the woodwork regarding other teams you can be sure and the same punishments would have to be handed out to everybody.

Hazys · 21-01-2015 11:32pm

padraig_f wrote: »

Gimme a break, it's literally written in the rules for the footballs to be within a certain range of pressure. Everyone agrees that reducing the pressure of the football gives an advantage to the offensive team.

So it's against the rules, and it gives a competitive advantage. That's the dictionary definition of cheating. And according to you, it's a non-issue.

Lots of things are against the rules, and give a competitive advantage so everything can be defined as cheating. If you hold on a play and get away with it, its cheating. If you heat the balls, its cheating. If you over inflate the balls, hoping the refs don't notice, its cheating, etc. I don't think you can judge them all the same.

All I'm asking is that there but some realism in judging the severity of the crime. People are treating this as the biggest scandal to hit the NFL when its most certainly not and backed up by the people who play the game.

padraig_f · 21-01-2015 11:32pm

kryogen wrote: »

Is your head stuck under a rock? It is certainly not JUST according to him that its a non issue.

You think breaking the rules to gain competitive advantage is a non-issue?

You and I have pretty different ideas about sport if that's the case.

bruschi · 21-01-2015 11:35pm

padraig_f wrote: »

You think breaking the rules to gain competitive advantage is a non-issue?

You and I have pretty different ideas about sport if that's the case.

I'd love to live in your very black and white world!

phatkev · 21-01-2015 11:36pm

lads the true voice of reason and NFL aficionado that is Piers Morgan has spoken, and he says that the Patriots are cheats and should be thrown out of the Superbowl! so ye can close this thread:pac::pac:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2920579/PIERS-MORGAN-Patriots-deliberately-deflated-balls-bunch-cheats-thrown-Super-Bowl.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus

If the Patriots deliberately deflated those balls then they're a bunch of cheats who should be thrown out of the Super Bowl

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2920579/PIERS-MORGAN-Patriots-deliberately-deflated-balls-bunch-cheats-thrown-Super-Bowl.html#ixzz3PUwZKn00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

But seriously all this commotion over a few soft balls, completely blown out of proportion(and thats coming from a Jets fan)

poldebruin · 21-01-2015 11:41pm

Hazys wrote: »

@MattLeinartQB

Every team tampers with the footballs, Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!

The more NFL people talk, the more it gets downplayed as common practice.

The more sports journalists and talking heads talk, the more scandalous it gets.

Not necessarily. I have not seen anyone say yet that they deflated the footballs (well) beyond what the regulation allows. It would seem the NFL rulebook even allows for QB preference (and probably game day variance and mechanical error) by giving a range of allowed pressures (12.5 to 13.5)

Everyone knows that QB's and teams scrub and prepare the covering on the ball to add grip - this does not alter the shape, weight or pressure of the ball. Rodgers said he like to inflate the balls, and maybe a little more if he could get away with it. I doubt anyone would be making a stink if the footballs were slightly outside of the range allowed.

The idea that the media are somehow responsible for this story is tiresome. It was reported by players to officials, they investigated and found the balls to be non-regulation. All that is to be decided is how they came to be that way. The NFL will decide the punishment at the end of the day, and they seem to be taking the matter seriously and the league will take issue with even the appearance of impropriety.

padraig_f · 21-01-2015 11:42pm

Hazys wrote: »

Lots of things are against the rules, and give a competitive advantage so everything can be defined as cheating. If you hold on a play and get away with it, its cheating. If you heat the balls, its cheating. If you over inflate the balls, hoping the refs don't notice, its cheating, etc. I don't think you can judge them all the same.

All I'm asking is that there but some realism in judging the severity of the crime. People are treating this as the biggest scandal to hit the NFL when its most certainly not and backed up by the people who play the game.

Ok so you're talking about the severity of the punishment, well that's fair enough. I thought you were brushing it off completely.

I do think there's a significant difference between onfield transgressions like a hold, and tampering with the equipment. The former is going to happen with guys intending to play the game fairly.

Tampering with equipment is more clear-cut cheating, and not playing the game fairly. I'm not sure what the punishment should be (that's kind of a separate debate), but it's a different level from on-field stuff.

Hazys · 21-01-2015 11:44pm

padraig_f wrote: »

You think breaking the rules to gain competitive advantage is a non-issue?

You and I have pretty different ideas about sport if that's the case.

Last night in boxing training my coach told me to pull down the blocking glove on my opponent as i slide to the left. I asked was it legal, he said no, but at worst you'll get a warning from the ref, if even. People will always push the limits in sport that the nature of competition. Should i receive a lifetime ban from boxing for that move or should i possibly get a warning from the ref? I think if this is an analogy for the Patriots' situation...its a life time ban

padraig_f · 21-01-2015 11:50pm

bruschi wrote: »

I'd love to live in your very black and white world!

It's a black-and-white rule:

The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case
(natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight
shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short circumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches;
weight, 14 to 15 ounces.

padraig_f · 21-01-2015 11:57pm

Hazys wrote: »

Last night in boxing training my coach told me to pull down the blocking glove on my opponent as i slide to the left. I asked was it legal, he said no, but at worst you'll get a warning from the ref, if even. People will always push the limits in sport that the nature of competition. Should i receive a lifetime ban from boxing for that move or should i possibly get a warning from the ref? I think if this is an analogy for the Patriots' situation...its a life time ban

And if that kind of move was going on too much, it's be up to the boxing authorities to create a punishment that would be a sufficient deterrent.

Same for this case, if the Patriots are found to be guilty, the punishment should be a deterrent for future teams to do it. A fine wouldn't be sufficient in this case imo. For other teams to do it then, it'd be worth the risk.

frostie500 · 21-01-2015 11:59pm

Hazys wrote: »

The problem is most NFL people are saying its not a big deal. The Pats should be punished and in my opinion it should be minimal considering how widespread this is appears to and considering that nothing came of the Panthers heating their footballs after being told not to. I think the rules have will be changed in the off season too.

But on the other side of the coin, the media is going crazy, calling for Pats to be kicked out of the Super Bowl, BB to be fired or suspended, etc. Considering how easily influenced Goodell is by the media, i don't think it'll be a fair punishment.

Do you think if Goodell comes out and fines the Patriots $25,000 and a 7th round pick that will fly with the media when they are expecting BB to be suspended for a year?

Ah yeah I definitely agree, as I said earlier the punishment probably should end up being the loss of a mid-round pick (I'd imagine a fourth or fifth). It sounds to me like a reasonable punishment if they are found guilty. That may not satisfy some in the media but I think that, as you say, the media are going crazy for this. To even think that the Pats would be thrown out of the Superbowl or anything that extreme is ridiculous but that's what the more uninformed elements, and extremeist side, in the media think will get hits

In Exile · 22-01-2015 12:06am

phatkev wrote: »

But seriously all this commotion over a few soft balls, completely blown out of proportion(and thats coming from a Jets fan)

I despise the Patriots. I was delighted to see them get into trouble after Kraft reported Johnson's off the cuff remarks about Revis. Karma at its best I thought.
Even now, I love the reaction of Pats fans, even here, calling everyone trolls who enjoys seeing this happen to the Patriots.

But after all that (and I have enjoyed it!) what really bothers me more than the cheating (if they are found guilty of cheating, where they tampered with the balls purposely outside of the rules) is the fact they resort to it.

Brady and Belichick are HOF legends. They don't need to resort to this sort of sh*t. And apart from Seattle, they have the beating of every other team in the league.

I don't enjoy the excuses either from either side.

To me, it doesn't matter what the scoreline was. It doesn't matter if other teams do it but only the Pats have been caught. Cheating is cheating. If you get caught, you should be punished.

Talk of replaying the game is rubbish too. The Colts are already on their holidays. And even still, the crime doesn't justify a replay or a disqualification.

I don't understand the Pats fans complaint either about the only reason the Colts complained was because they got tipped off by the Ravens. Surely that just shows that this wasn't a one off crime, but Baltimore didn't manage to prove it the week before. If Indy knew this was going to happen and the LB ran directly to the VP, then they knew there was something wrong and were waiting to prove it.

I'm going to wait until the final report is out before commenting on whether I think the sanctions are correct or not. If the leaked reports are true then they are guilty of something. But it all depends on what the NFL can prove.

For me, that could range from a large fine, to a loss of a mid round pick to suspensions for those involved (very unlikely since it'd be very tough to prove)

In Exile · 22-01-2015 12:20am

Hazys wrote: »

Last night in boxing training my coach told me to pull down the blocking glove on my opponent as i slide to the left. I asked was it legal, he said no, but at worst you'll get a warning from the ref, if even. People will always push the limits in sport that the nature of competition. Should i receive a lifetime ban from boxing for that move or should i possibly get a warning from the ref? I think if this is an analogy for the Patriots' situation...its a life time ban

But that's the thing. You get a warning. Same as in football. You hold, you get penalized.
Same in boxing, if you tampered with your gloves, and you got caught, you would be punished accordingly. It wouldn't matter if everybody else tampers too, you got caught and you have to face the consequences

Vanolder · 22-01-2015 12:23am

In Exile wrote: »

I despise the Patriots. I was delighted to see them get into trouble after Kraft reported Johnson's off the cuff remarks about Revis. Karma at its best I thought.
Even now, I love the reaction of Pats fans, even here, calling everyone trolls who enjoys seeing this happen to the Patriots.

But after all that (and I have enjoyed it!) what really bothers me more than the cheating (if they are found guilty of cheating, where they tampered with the balls purposely outside of the rules) is the fact they resort to it.

Brady and Belichick are HOF legends. They don't need to resort to this sort of sh*t. And apart from Seattle, they have the beating of every other team in the league.

I don't enjoy the excuses either from either side.

To me, it doesn't matter what the scoreline was. It doesn't matter if other teams do it but only the Pats have been caught. Cheating is cheating. If you get caught, you should be punished.

Talk of replaying the game is rubbish too. The Colts are already on their holidays. And even still, the crime doesn't justify a replay or a disqualification.

I don't understand the Pats fans complaint either about the only reason the Colts complained was because they got tipped off by the Ravens. Surely that just shows that this wasn't a one off crime, but Baltimore didn't manage to prove it the week before. If Indy knew this was going to happen and the LB ran directly to the VP, then they knew there was something wrong and were waiting to prove it.

I'm going to wait until the final report is out before commenting on whether I think the sanctions are correct or not. If the leaked reports are true then they are guilty of something. But it all depends on what the NFL can prove.

For me, that could range from a large fine, to a loss of a mid round pick to suspensions for those involved (very unlikely since it'd be very tough to prove)

Where you watching the SB, mate? Should be a great night.

In Exile · 22-01-2015 12:27am

Vanolder wrote: »

Where you watching the SB, mate? Should be a great night.

I'll either be watching it in work, or I'll work from home for the day.

Had over 4 weeks holidays at Chrsitmas so I won't be able to take a Monday off for months!

Vanolder · 22-01-2015 12:30am

In Exile wrote: »

I'll either be watching it in work, or I'll work from home for the day.

Had over 4 weeks holidays at Chrsitmas so I won't be able to take a Monday off for months!

Work on Monday will be good for you, will take your mind off the Pats winning. I'd fear for you if you had the day off to think about that.

Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

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