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Top 10 Irish Horses Ever!
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And the stick used to beat STS (retired at 3) could equally be applied to several others on the list.
Its not a stick at all but more so of an open eye. STS was a very good horse but it's not like we haven't seen his like before. Mill reef, Nashwan and lammtara all have similar bodies of work. his derby wan't on the level of Shergar and his Arc lacked the depth of those won by Dancing Brave and Sea Bird. as I said he was a very good horse but the truth is we are likely to see another STS before we see another Frankel or Nijinsky.0 -
Sea The Stars had the most successful classic season of any racehorse ever, anywhere. Nobody knows how long we'll have to wait for a racehorse to emulate him. What we do know is that no horse in the history of horse racing before him managed to achieve what he achieved, although great horses like Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave came close. Nijinsky was the closest thing to him in Europe, and that was way back in 1970.FIVE2_THREE wrote: »Its not a stick at all but more so of an open eye. STS was a very good horse but it's not like we haven't seen his like before. Mill reef, Nashwan and lammtara all have similar bodies of work. his derby wan't on the level of Shergar and his Arc lacked the depth of those won by Dancing Brave and Sea Bird. as I said he was a very good horse but the truth is we are likely to see another STS before we see another Frankel or Nijinsky.0 -
Sea The Stars and Nijinsky tops on the flat. El Gran Senor, High Chaparral, Sir Ivor, Hawk Wing and Giant's Causeway also top class. Arkle (GOAT), Moscow Flyer, Dawn Run, Istabraq and Captain Christy over jumps.0
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Sea The Stars had the most successful classic season of any racehorse ever, anywhere. Nobody knows how long we'll have to wait for a racehorse to emulate him. What we do know is that no horse in the history of horse racing before him managed to achieve what he achieved, although great horses like Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave came close. Nijinsky was the closest thing to him in Europe, and that was way back in 1970.
Once again that is YOUR OPINION regardless of what anybody says you will never change YOUR OPINION about STS and that's well and great.
but a few experts disagree with your opinion.
As racing professionals rushed to praise Sea The Stars today, following news of his retirement, a rare note of scepticism was struck by Joe Mercer, a former champion jockey best remembered for his association with Brigadier Gerard in the early 1970s. Mercer said Sea The Stars, though impressive, was still not among the best three racehorses he had seen and cautioned against the effects of being swept up by momentary hype.
"I remember when Galileo won the King George [in 2001], they were raving about him being the best they'd ever seen," Mercer said. "You can't have a best horse you've ever seen every other year.
"I've always said Ribot was the best horse I've seen. Sea-Bird would be second and then the horse I rode, Brigadier Gerard. Sea The Stars has won six Group Ones, Brigadier Gerard won 13 and there isn't a horse that's got past him yet.
"You can't fault Sea The Stars – he's exceptional, he's got a fantastic temperament and fantastic looks. If he was a film star, he'd be top of the ranks. But half the people who are saying he's the best they've ever seen aren't old enough to have seen the best horses. I'm going back to the 1950s with Ribot."
There was less caution from others associated with great horses of the past, including Pat Eddery, who rode Dancing Brave to victory in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe of 1986. Eddery said Sea The Stars was "up there with the best" and laughed at a suggestion that he might resent the current champion being regarded as better than his horse.
Ian Balding, who trained Mill Reef to win the Derby and the Arc of 1971, said Sea The Stars was "right up there" with Sea-Bird, Ribot and Mill Reef and was "probably the best".
"He was lucky enough that he didn't have to try and beat Brigadier Gerard in the Guineas [as Mill Reef failed to do]. But he's a fabulous, fabulous racehorse in every way," Balding said.
Fans of Mill Reef can point to the fact that he stayed in training as a four-year-old and continued to win top-class races, but Balding said he has every sympathy with the decision to send Sea The Stars to stud after just two seasons on the track.
"These days, you can understand that this happens because they can make so much money," he said. "In Mill Reef's day, that wasn't an issue because you didn't cover more than 40 mares per year. Now, if you want to, you can cover 150 here and 150 in Australia."
Both Balding and Eddery expressed their relief that Sea The Stars would not be sent to America to contest next month's Breeders' Cup Classic, an exacting test which they feel the horse does not deserve after achieving so much. But his immediate retirement was a matter of regret for Geoff Greetham, who will have a great deal of influence over Sea The Stars' enduring reputation.
Greetham is publishing editor of the internationally respected Timeform annuals, whose ratings are widely accepted as definitive when it comes to assessing a horse's ability. He suspects that, without a trip to America, Sea The Stars will not end up with a rating that will satisfy the horse's many ardent fans.
"It is a shame he won't go to the Breeders' Cup," says Greetham. "If he was to win there, that would put him one step in front of the achievements of Dancing Brave, who had a very similar record and was beaten there.
"I didn't subscribe to the view that he had nothing left to prove. I would like to have seen him in America and he's still a horse who didn't win his races by more than he needed to. For that reason, he could still be better than his current rating."
Greetham expects that, when Timeform's 'Racehorses' annual is published in the spring, Sea The Stars will be left on his current mark of 140, making him as good as Dancing Brave and Shergar, but just behind Mill Reef and a few lengths adrift of Brigadier Gerard.
Sea The Stars is not even that good, according to Phil Smith, Britain's senior handicapper. On his figures, the horse is worth a rating of 135, well adrift of Dancing Brave on 141, though there is still a chance that his rating could be raised.
Smith will meet with his international colleagues in Hong Kong at the end of the year to thrash out final figures for this year's best horses. In the meantime, he will be keeping a close eye on the horses beaten by Sea The Stars – if they turn out to be better than previously thought, Sea The Stars' rating may go up.
Of particular interest to Smith is Rip Van Winkle, beaten three times by Sea The Stars and favourite for the Breeders' Cup Classic. Victory for Rip Van Winkle in what is arguably the world's most prestigious Flat race would boost Sea The Stars' reputation without him having to lift a leg.
"Whatever Rip Van Winkle's final rating, we will have Sea The Stars higher," says Smith. "He will be the best horse this year, no question, but his exact final rating is up for grabs.
"He's a really interesting horse. I'm still not totally sure I know how good he is. He's been running against good horses but not great horses and you tend to get an exceptionally high rating only by beating great horses.
"Also, he doesn't win by very far. That has meant he's been able to conserve energy and win six Group Ones in six months – he's such a professional, he just does enough. But the disadvantage is that we can't rate him exceptionally high."
Smith's team have assessed Sea The Stars as if he had won the Arc by four lengths, even though the actual margin was only two. But he points out that the horse carried less weight than the older horses in that race, to allow for his relative physical immaturity, another factor which makes his worth hard to assess.
"We may not be giving him the full credit he deserves," says Smith. "When they're only campaigned as three-year-olds, you're still slightly in the dark. We could be vastly under-rating him."
Greetham takes a different view. "He was very mature as a three-year-old, as you can see by the fact that he stood all that racing, so you wouldn't necessarily expect him to make the regulation progress as a four-year-old," he said.
"This is him, he's at his peak and I wouldn't have expected him to be better next year than he is now. He's a fully mature racehorse."
But, in the absence of further evidence, Smith's verdict on the horse will seem a terrible understatement to Sea The Stars' devotees. "He's certainly in the top five of the last 20 or 25 years. That's as far as I'm prepared to go.
"He's got that all-round combination of speed and middle-distance stamina, which is like a top-class boxer with a knock-out punch, it's always really exciting to see," said Jim McGrath, Channel 4's analyst.
A former chairman of Timeform, McGrath feels that ratings are most useful in identifying an "upper echelon" of horses. "Beyond that, as to which of them is best, it's a question of personal choice and you believe what you want to believe.
"We know for a fact that if we mix a pot of blue paint with a pot of yellow, we'll definitely get green. Over a matter like this, it's different.
"I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say he's better than Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard. He's set a wonderful standard and he's a fantastic racehorse but I don't think he's quite done enough."
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/oct/13/sea-the-stars-joe-mercer0 -
2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, Eclipse Stakes, International Stakes, Irish Champion Stakes, Prix de l'Arc de Triomph. That is the most successful classic season ever. You described the racehorse who won all of those races in the space of six months as being "very good". That article you quoted from was published in the wake of his Arc victory. they weren't discussing whether he was a great racehorse: they were the few voices dissenting from the prevailing opinion that he was the greatest racehorse ever! I agree with you that that is a question of personal opinion.FIVE2_THREE wrote: »Once again that is YOUR OPINION regardless of what anybody says you will never change YOUR OPINION about STS and that's well and great.
but a few experts disagree with your opinion.
As racing professionals rushed to praise Sea The Stars today, following news of his retirement, a rare note of scepticism was struck by Joe Mercer, a former champion jockey best remembered for his association with Brigadier Gerard in the early 1970s. Mercer said Sea The Stars, though impressive, was still not among the best three racehorses he had seen and cautioned against the effects of being swept up by momentary hype.
"I remember when Galileo won the King George [in 2001], they were raving about him being the best they'd ever seen," Mercer said. "You can't have a best horse you've ever seen every other year.
"I've always said Ribot was the best horse I've seen. Sea-Bird would be second and then the horse I rode, Brigadier Gerard. Sea The Stars has won six Group Ones, Brigadier Gerard won 13 and there isn't a horse that's got past him yet.
"You can't fault Sea The Stars – he's exceptional, he's got a fantastic temperament and fantastic looks. If he was a film star, he'd be top of the ranks. But half the people who are saying he's the best they've ever seen aren't old enough to have seen the best horses. I'm going back to the 1950s with Ribot."
There was less caution from others associated with great horses of the past, including Pat Eddery, who rode Dancing Brave to victory in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe of 1986. Eddery said Sea The Stars was "up there with the best" and laughed at a suggestion that he might resent the current champion being regarded as better than his horse.
Ian Balding, who trained Mill Reef to win the Derby and the Arc of 1971, said Sea The Stars was "right up there" with Sea-Bird, Ribot and Mill Reef and was "probably the best".
"He was lucky enough that he didn't have to try and beat Brigadier Gerard in the Guineas [as Mill Reef failed to do]. But he's a fabulous, fabulous racehorse in every way," Balding said.
Fans of Mill Reef can point to the fact that he stayed in training as a four-year-old and continued to win top-class races, but Balding said he has every sympathy with the decision to send Sea The Stars to stud after just two seasons on the track.
"These days, you can understand that this happens because they can make so much money," he said. "In Mill Reef's day, that wasn't an issue because you didn't cover more than 40 mares per year. Now, if you want to, you can cover 150 here and 150 in Australia."
Both Balding and Eddery expressed their relief that Sea The Stars would not be sent to America to contest next month's Breeders' Cup Classic, an exacting test which they feel the horse does not deserve after achieving so much. But his immediate retirement was a matter of regret for Geoff Greetham, who will have a great deal of influence over Sea The Stars' enduring reputation.
Greetham is publishing editor of the internationally respected Timeform annuals, whose ratings are widely accepted as definitive when it comes to assessing a horse's ability. He suspects that, without a trip to America, Sea The Stars will not end up with a rating that will satisfy the horse's many ardent fans.
"It is a shame he won't go to the Breeders' Cup," says Greetham. "If he was to win there, that would put him one step in front of the achievements of Dancing Brave, who had a very similar record and was beaten there.
"I didn't subscribe to the view that he had nothing left to prove. I would like to have seen him in America and he's still a horse who didn't win his races by more than he needed to. For that reason, he could still be better than his current rating."
Greetham expects that, when Timeform's 'Racehorses' annual is published in the spring, Sea The Stars will be left on his current mark of 140, making him as good as Dancing Brave and Shergar, but just behind Mill Reef and a few lengths adrift of Brigadier Gerard.
Sea The Stars is not even that good, according to Phil Smith, Britain's senior handicapper. On his figures, the horse is worth a rating of 135, well adrift of Dancing Brave on 141, though there is still a chance that his rating could be raised.
Smith will meet with his international colleagues in Hong Kong at the end of the year to thrash out final figures for this year's best horses. In the meantime, he will be keeping a close eye on the horses beaten by Sea The Stars – if they turn out to be better than previously thought, Sea The Stars' rating may go up.
Of particular interest to Smith is Rip Van Winkle, beaten three times by Sea The Stars and favourite for the Breeders' Cup Classic. Victory for Rip Van Winkle in what is arguably the world's most prestigious Flat race would boost Sea The Stars' reputation without him having to lift a leg.
"Whatever Rip Van Winkle's final rating, we will have Sea The Stars higher," says Smith. "He will be the best horse this year, no question, but his exact final rating is up for grabs.
"He's a really interesting horse. I'm still not totally sure I know how good he is. He's been running against good horses but not great horses and you tend to get an exceptionally high rating only by beating great horses.
"Also, he doesn't win by very far. That has meant he's been able to conserve energy and win six Group Ones in six months – he's such a professional, he just does enough. But the disadvantage is that we can't rate him exceptionally high."
Smith's team have assessed Sea The Stars as if he had won the Arc by four lengths, even though the actual margin was only two. But he points out that the horse carried less weight than the older horses in that race, to allow for his relative physical immaturity, another factor which makes his worth hard to assess.
"We may not be giving him the full credit he deserves," says Smith. "When they're only campaigned as three-year-olds, you're still slightly in the dark. We could be vastly under-rating him."
Greetham takes a different view. "He was very mature as a three-year-old, as you can see by the fact that he stood all that racing, so you wouldn't necessarily expect him to make the regulation progress as a four-year-old," he said.
"This is him, he's at his peak and I wouldn't have expected him to be better next year than he is now. He's a fully mature racehorse."
But, in the absence of further evidence, Smith's verdict on the horse will seem a terrible understatement to Sea The Stars' devotees. "He's certainly in the top five of the last 20 or 25 years. That's as far as I'm prepared to go.
"He's got that all-round combination of speed and middle-distance stamina, which is like a top-class boxer with a knock-out punch, it's always really exciting to see," said Jim McGrath, Channel 4's analyst.
A former chairman of Timeform, McGrath feels that ratings are most useful in identifying an "upper echelon" of horses. "Beyond that, as to which of them is best, it's a question of personal choice and you believe what you want to believe.
"We know for a fact that if we mix a pot of blue paint with a pot of yellow, we'll definitely get green. Over a matter like this, it's different.
"I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say he's better than Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard. He's set a wonderful standard and he's a fantastic racehorse but I don't think he's quite done enough."
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/oct/13/sea-the-stars-joe-mercer0 -
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thing is STS didn't beat much except for in the Arc itself.
Rip Van Winkle & Mastercraftsman wouldn't be all that high in the list of O'Brien's best, and Fame & Glory was being run at inadequate trips.0 -
the groutch wrote: »thing is STS didn't beat much except for in the Arc itself.
Rip Van Winkle & Mastercraftsman wouldn't be all that high in the list of O'Brien's best, and Fame & Glory was being run at inadequate trips.
Absolutely. this is horse racing and who you beat does matter. STS was a good horse to win those races but they lacked the depth. those races were not stacked with talent. Frankel defeated horses who account for a grand total of 56 G1 wins we will never see that again. Sea Bird's Arc had G1 winners coming in from all over the world. Dancing Brave defeated a star studded cast in his Arc. STS was good but aside from RVW and MC where who else did he beat ?0 -
I made a point of not mentioning the F word. but, now that you brought it up, how did he get on in the Derby and the Arc? Do you think Frankel could have done what STS did, and, if he think he could, why didn't he? How would you compare STS's Guineas (several multiple G1 winners) and Frankel's (some half decent handicappers and a lot of good 2-y-os who hadn't trained on.) There was only one other top class miler around when Frankel was doing his flat track bully thing, and that was Wise Dan.FIVE2_THREE wrote: »Absolutely. this is horse racing and who you beat does matter. STS was a good horse to win those races but they lacked the depth. those races were not stacked with talent. a horse like Frankel defeated horses who account for a grand total of 56 G1 wins we will never see that again. Se Bird's Arc had G1 winners coming in from all over the world. Dancing Brave defeated a star studded cast in his Arc. STS was good but aside from RVW and MC where who else did he beat ?0 -
Rip Van Winkle was very highly thought of at the time, and they expected great things from him. He was every bit as good as they expected him to be. He just met one better. Mastercraftsman won four or five G1s, so he wasn't bad either. Fame and Glory won the Irish Derby by five lengths.the groutch wrote: »thing is STS didn't beat much except for in the Arc itself.
Rip Van Winkle & Mastercraftsman wouldn't be all that high in the list of O'Brien's best, and Fame & Glory was being run at inadequate trips.0 -
I made a point of not mentioning the F word. but, now that you brought it up, how did he get on in the Derby and the Arc? Do you think Frankel could have done what STS did, and, if he think he could, why didn't he? How would you you compare STS's Guineas (several multiple G1 winners) and Frankel's (some half decent handicappers and a lot of good 2-y-os who hadn't trained on.) There was only one other top class miler around when Frankel was doing his flat track bully thing, and that was Wise Dan.
Wise Dan is a joke. he was getting his bottom spanked by Gio Ponti who was wayyy overrated. so to mention him in the same sentence as Frankel is blasphemy. Get back to me when Wise Dan wins a race with out the aid of drugs, then we can talk. even if you want to play the Frankel didn't run in the Derby card its worthless because there is still no doubt that he is the greatest miler EVER. STS isn't the greatest 12f horse ever. you don't beat horses who account for 56 G1 wins unless you're great.0 -
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STS beat the winners of approximately 49 GP 1s in a short career.Rip Van Winkle was very highly thought of at the time, and they expected great things from him. He was every bit as good as they expected him to be. He just met one better. Mastercraftsman won four or five G1s, so he wasn't bad either. Fame and Glory won the Irish Derby by five lengths.
Rip Van Winkle 130, Fame and Glory 129 and Mastercraftsman 127 as three year olds racing against Sea The Stars all rated higher than the likes of Rock Of Gibraltar, Giant's Causeway, So You Think, Nathaniel, Henrythenavigator, George Washington, New Approach ever did.
Horses that rate 127 and over are rare beasts.
Sea The Stars had gears over 10f and further, Frankel wouldn't have been able to shake him off and would IMO have been beaten by STS over 10f. As was seen in the Irish Champion Stakes. O'Brien tried to beat STS by setting a pace that would break him, it didn't he had plenty in the locker.
There's very little between both horses, Frankel shades it in on official form because he was ridden and extended himself to a limit that STS never needed to do.
Frankel couldn't have completed STS's 3yo season, he just wasn't strong enough as a 3yo to put in the season that STS did. Both horse's greatness were a result of the trainers getting the max out of them. If Frankel had tried to do what STS did as a 3yo he'd have cracked under the pressure.0 -
STS beat the winners of approximately 49 GP 1s in a short career.
Rip Van Winkle 130, Fame and Glory 129 and Mastercraftsman 127 as three year olds racing against Sea The Stars all rated higher than the likes of Rock Of Gibraltar, Giant's Causeway, So You Think, Nathaniel, Henrythenavigator, George Washington, New Approach ever did.
Horses that rate 127 and over are rare beasts.
Sea The Stars had gears over 10f and further, Frankel wouldn't have been able to shake him off and would IMO have been beaten by STS over 10f. As was seen in the Irish Champion Stakes. O'Brien tried to beat STS by setting a pace that would break him, it didn't he had plenty in the locker.
There's very little between both horses, Frankel shades it in on official form because he was ridden and extended himself to a limit that STS never needed to do.
Frankel couldn't have completed STS's 3yo season, he just wasn't strong enough as a 3yo to put in the season that STS did. Both horse's greatness were a result of the trainers getting the max out of them. If Frankel had tried to do what STS did as a 3yo he'd have cracked under the pressure.
Same can be said for Frankel. lets not forget Coolmore spent millions on Excelebration. A horse who would have dominated had he not been born the same year as Frankel. In the international Ballydoyle deployed Robin hood and Windsor Palace as pacemakers for the Ultra Classy St.Nicholas Abbey and still Frankel Made him look normal. while STS had one Seller year Frankel had 3. Champion at 2,3,and 4. you can call it whatever you like but I prefer to see and champion return year after year for all to take their shot as oppose to a champion who runs toward the exit. it's not like STS won the triple crown. and then retired. the stud money was going to be there no matter what.0 -
I agree that Frankel was a very good miler. It's just a pity he never ran against Wise Dan to see who was the best miler in the world. Any of the European horses who did take on Wise Dan, like Excelebration, got their asses served up to them.FIVE2_THREE wrote: »Wise Dan is a joke. he was getting his bottom spanked by Gio Ponti who was wayyy overrated. so to mention him in the same sentence as Frankel is blasphemy. Get back to me when Wise Dan wins a race with out the aid of drugs, then we can talk. even if you want to play the Frankel didn't run in the Derby card its worthless because there is still no doubt that he is the greatest miler EVER. STS isn't the greatest 12f horse ever. you don't beat horses who account for 56 G1 wins unless you're great.0 -
It would have been impossible for STS to win the St Leger for the triple crown.The Irish Champion Stakes was on the same day. STS was an Irish horse and John Oxx had always made it clear that the Irish Champion was his long term target. The ICS is also a more prestigious race so it made more sense to go for it.FIVE2_THREE wrote: »Same can be said for Frankel. lets not forget Coolmore spent millions on Excelebration. A horse who would have dominated had he not been born the same year as Frankel. In the international Ballydoyle deployed Robin hood and Windsor Palace as pacemakers for the Ultra Classy St.Nicholas Abbey and still Frankel Made him look normal. while STS had one Seller year Frankel had 3. Champion at 2,3,and 4. you can call it whatever you like but I prefer to see and champion return year after year for all to take their shot as oppose to a champion who runs toward the exit. it's not like STS won the triple crown. and then retired. the stud money was going to be there no matter what.0 -
FIVE2_THREE wrote: »Its not a stick at all but more so of an open eye. STS was a very good horse but it's not like we haven't seen his like before. Mill reef, Nashwan and lammtara all have similar bodies of work. his derby wan't on the level of Shergar and his Arc lacked the depth of those won by Dancing Brave and Sea Bird. as I said he was a very good horse but the truth is we are likely to see another STS before we see another Frankel or Nijinsky.
Nijinsky didn't beat much in The Derby either, and he got beat by an ordinary enough horse in the Arc, albeit Piggott didn't give him the best of rides.
Sea The Stars was a horse who only just did enough, but he'd have plenty in reserve if Kinane needed it. I have no doubt that Sea The Stars would've given Frankel plenty to think about - I wouldn't be so confident that Nijinsky would've given Frankel much of a race though.0 -
I agree that Frankel was a very good miler. It's just a pity he never ran against Wise Dan to see who was the best miler in the world. Any of the European horses who did take on Wise Dan, like Excelebration, got their asses served up to them.
The best Miler ever was Frankel he did everything with NATURAL ABILITY Wise Dan has never won a race without Lasix or Bute. He may have beaten every Euro horse that He has raced against BUT PLANES FLY BOTH WAYS. I don't see team Wise Dan willing to come to Europe any other racing district where he can't get the needle.0 -
Harry Angstrom wrote: »Nijinsky didn't beat much in The Derby either, and he got beat by an ordinary enough horse in the Arc, albeit Piggott didn't give him the best of rides.
Sea The Stars was a horse who only just did enough, but he'd have plenty in reserve if Kinane needed it. I have no doubt that Sea The Stars would've given Frankel plenty to think about - I wouldn't be so confident that Nijinsky would've given Frankel much of a race though.
I don't deal in absolutes. I let the numbers speak for them selves. I can't say who would have beaten who.. You all love to say STS did just enough but the Same can be said for Frankel I've never seen Frankel blowing or extended beyond ability. He routinely smashed top grade horses from his maiden race until his last race. as I said before people may not agree that Frankel is the greatest but I dare anybody to name a better miler in history who can match his body of work. the numbers don't lie. the form doesn't lie either.0 -
FIVE2_THREE wrote: »The best Miler ever was Frankel he did everything with NATURAL ABILITY Wise Dan has never won a race without Lasix or Bute. He may have beaten every Euro horse that He has raced against BUT PLANES FLY BOTH WAYS. I don't see team Wise Dan willing to come to Europe any other racing district where he can't get the needle.
LOL, you should marry Frankel.
I am astounded you break your neck to dismiss STS and nobody can say a word about Frankel.
Remind me again over a mile, whose Guineas was run in a quicker time on same ground? :rolleyes:0 -
FIVE2_THREE wrote: »You all love to say STS did just enough but the Same can be said for Frankel I've never seen Frankel blowing or extended beyond ability.
Its clear STS only did enough, he slowed when he hit the front and picked up when something was getting close, Kinane is on record saying he was only ever at 85%. Frankel was taking a fair blow towards the end of his Guineas.0 -
LOL, you should marry Frankel.
I am astounded you break your neck to dismiss STS and nobody can say a word about Frankel.
Remind me again over a mile, whose Guineas was run in a quicker time on same ground? :rolleyes:
LOL. having a blow and still won the race by the 2nd greatest margin in history LOL hell of a blow0 -
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Its clear STS only did enough, he slowed when he hit the front and picked up when something was getting close, Kinane is on record saying he was only ever at 85%. Frankel was taking a fair blow towards the end of his Guineas.
STS sure didn't do enough in his maiden race when he was spanked thoroughly by a nobody.0 -
FIVE2_THREE wrote: »STS sure didn't do enough in his maiden race when he was spanked thoroughly by a nobody.
Mick Kinane was as good a jockey as there's ever been but he blames himself for that loss. Openly admits to placing too much emphasis on educating a very green horse that day. Sea The Stars was a machine. Over any trip, or country. Your argument to suggest any different defies logic.0 -
FIVE2_THREE wrote: »STS sure didn't do enough in his maiden race when he was spanked thoroughly by a nobody.
For your sake I hope you're not as big a jerk in Real Life.0 -
Bringing up Sea The Stars' maiden loss is a sure sign of a lost argument. Also hasnt this debate unfolded hundreds of times on hundreds of forums, just give it a rest they both had careers that stunned the racing world and comparing them is futile. Also Frankel has no place in this thread as an English bred and trained horse.
In my lifetime id have to think Hurricane Fly is the best irish bred-trained NH performer ive seen. Also was a huge fan of Moscow Flyer and an honourable mention for the steller career of Sizing Europe.
The flat list had to be topped by Sea the Stars in my lifetime anyway. Yeats as a wildcard pick, an amazing animal at what he did.0 -
I dont like this comparing horses especially when it comes to 2 all time greats in Sea The Stars and Frankel. But to be fair to STS he really did it all and won the best mile and middle distance races in the world whereas Frankel was wrapped in cotton wool ( not the horses fault). I actually think Frankel would of being better over 10-12f than a mile, his best performance came over an extended 10f at York.
Speaking of milers I think Hawk Wings win over a mile when he absolutely spread eagled the field (Lockinge??) was better than any of Frankels performances over the same distance.0 -
I think he was referring to the winner not the jockeyMick Kinane was as good a jockey as there's ever been but he blames himself for that loss. Openly admits to placing too much emphasis on educating a very green horse that day. Sea The Stars was a machine. Over any trip, or country. Your argument to suggest any different defies logic.0 -
FIVE2_THREE wrote: »LOL. having a blow and still won the race by the 2nd greatest margin in history LOL hell of a blow
Oh I imagined the field coming right back to him in the last 2 furlongs, he was 15 lengths clear with 2 1/2f to run and he won by 6/7 lengths :rolleyes:0 -
I often wonder what Nick Dundee could have achieved if he hadn't come down at Cheltenham. He was galloping all over Looks Like Trouble at the time.
L'Escargot is often overlooked in these conversations. Of all the chasers trained in Ireland, I would only have Arkle and Flyingbolt ahead of him.0 -
Nick Dundee that's the great thing about racing,the what ifs and buts0
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why do you think we never saw the best of Golden Fleece.vob retired everything early due to the policy of coolmore.best 3yr i ever saw but the best horse i ever saw was a 2yr old storm bird who never trained on.Arkle
Flyingbolt
Moscow flyer
Istabraq
Hurricane fly
Sea the stars
Nijinsky
Golden Fleece (never seen the best of him IMO)
El gran señor
Rock of Gibraltar0
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