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Diesels...... rip?

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    #62
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »
    The post I quoted above.
    Where the emboldened line shows that your line of questioning leads to my interpretation above.
    I asked you how you could compare so many cars in a short time frame, how is that saying you didn't own enough cars? Your being very childish.


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    #63
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    jimgoose wrote: »
    The equivalent diesel unit for that car is the 2.7l AJD-V6 twin-turbo, which, thanks to a compacted graphite iron block, weighs a whopping 15kg more than the 3l petrol. Much like me after a decent lunch! :pac:
    Not the same as your standard diesel engine so.


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    #64
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    Not the same as your standard diesel engine so.

    What is "my standard diesel engine"? The 2.7l AJD-V6 is over ten years old as a design, and is considered by most of the Deiselisti to be dreadful old-hat at this stage! :D


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    #65
    Cleveland Hot Pocket
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭Cleveland Hot Pocket


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    I asked you how you could compare so many cars in a short time frame, how is that saying you didn't own enough cars? Your being very childish.

    You're not reading what I wrote.


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    #66
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    CiniO wrote: »
    But is it really EU? Were those general EU outlines?
    Some countries went that way of encouraging low CO2 emission cars by taxing heavily high CO2 ones.
    But there's still plenty of countries in EU where nothing like that is happening.

    Similar situation in Italy, where motor tax is paid based on engine power regardless of fuel type, with a small factor regarding the Euro compliance of the car. For example, a vehicle producing 120 HP (88 kw) will pay 264 Euro if it's an Euro 0 (pre-1993, usually), 227 if it's Euro 4/5. There is a difference but is minimal enough not to be a factor for people to go out and spend 40k on a new car to "save on the tax".

    That said, there is a marked prevalence in the sales of diesel cars as the fuel costs considerably less than petrol - I just checked a petrol station I used to go, and it's 1.635 for petrol, 1.485 for diesel. The reason behind it stems from the first half of the 20th century, when diesel cars were not exactly popular and diesel was classified as "Transportation industy" fuel and not taxed as heavily. For a long list of political reasons, the taxation on it has never been increased - so people flock to small engined diesel cars. Most drivers also developed a preference for the low-end torque of turbodiesel engines.

    LPG is very popular as well, with the liter going for 0.695 in the same fueling station mentioned above; Many EU manufacturers (Fiat, Ford, Opel, Renault, Peugeot) offer factory-converted LPG ready vehicles on the IT market.

    This just to say that the CO2-craze has little to do with the EU and is an Irish (and, to a slightly lesser extent, British) thing. .


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Article on BBC today,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30119279


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    #68
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    Most drivers also developed a preference for the low-end torque of turbodiesel engines..

    Thet're far more comfortable than high revving petrols IMO


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's being ignored for far too long really. But no government wants to admit they are wrong.


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Its far more comfortable than high revving petrols IMO


    A manual diesel is far from comfortable to drive with there usually too high gearing these days makes the narrow torque range even more pronounced, they can be quiet annoying really, automatics are far
    better .


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    #71
    MuppetCheck
    Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭MuppetCheck


    How large a band do you need for mundane day to day driving? 6k? 8k? Revving the shyte out of it on the way to work isn't exactly comfortable.


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    Not the same as your standard diesel engine so.

    The chap can only make comparisons with the diesel engine available, I can see how it doesn't suit your sweeping generalisations, such is life :)


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    #73
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A manual diesel is far from comfortable to drive with there usually too high gearing these days makes the narrow torque range even more pronounced, they can be quiet annoying really, automatics are far
    better .

    I've always said that diesels, particularly small diesels, would benefit hugely from a decent 7-speed ZF as standard. Of course the small diesel merchants won't pay for it, so clatter on! :pac:


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    #74
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A manual diesel is far from comfortable to drive with there usually too high gearing these days makes the narrow torque range even more pronounced, they can be quiet annoying really, automatics are far
    better .

    Autos are definitely better but I'd still take a manual diesel over a powder-puff petrol any day


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    #75
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    MuppetCheck wrote: »
    How large a band do you need for mundane day to day driving? 6k? 8k? Revving the shyte out of it on the way to work isn't exactly comfortable.

    Spot on. Can't stand having to rev the sh*t out of a little petrol.

    Some blokes seem to love it so each to his own.


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MuppetCheck wrote: »
    How large a band do you need for mundane day to day driving? 6k? 8k? Revving the shyte out of it on the way to work isn't exactly comfortable.

    I drove a 6 speed diesel mokka last weekend, gearing was suitable for motorway cruising and thst alone imo, around town it was a pig, second gear was too high often.


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    #77
    MuppetCheck
    Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭MuppetCheck


    Augeo wrote: »
    I drove a 6 speed diesel mokka last weekend, gearing was suitable for motorway cruising and thst alone imo, around town it was a pig, second gear was too high often.

    Classic Opel gearing there! 5th unless approaching motorway speeds. They know how to do it wrong.


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Autos are definitely better but I'd still take a manual diesel over a powder-puff petrol any day

    I wouldn't go back to a manual diesel if I was paid, coming from the prius with similar power to a manual diesel there's just no comparison the prius wins hands down for smoothness and comfortable driving with no rattle or vibration. Granted mac acceleration is most but 99 % of the time is relaxed.

    Now give me a golf GTD dsg and I'd be more willing to trade the smoothness of the prius if I got similar economy. But it's grossly over priced, can't win them again the prius isn't cheap but you get a lot more car.


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    #79
    MuppetCheck
    Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭MuppetCheck


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But it's grossly over priced, can't win them again the prius isn't cheap but you get a lot more car.

    Agree on the price but do you really get a lot more car? The Golf will be more pleasant to drive to most people, looks a hell of a lot better, nicer to travel in, faster. The engine and gearbox combo in a Prius isn't the last word in refinement either. There are diesels that are smoother.

    I say this as someone who was out at the weekend looking at a Prius for a family member. One is a nice car, the others the definition of a white good if ever there was one.


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MuppetCheck wrote: »
    Agree on the price but do you really get a lot more car? The Golf will be more pleasant to drive to most people, looks a hell of a lot better, nicer to travel in, faster. The engine and gearbox combo in a Prius isn't the last word in refinement either. There are diesels that are smoother.

    I say this as someone who was out at the weekend looking at a Prius for a family member. One is a nice car, the others the definition of a white good if ever there was one.

    The Golf is not better looking than the latest model prius and is a good bit bigger which a lot of people need.

    A dsg golf tdi is far from being smoother than a prius.

    I'll admit the Golf appeals to a lot of people and the prius has the unfortunate image of being too eco for some.

    Vw interiors are definitely nicer if you get a decent spec but considering the prius is made mostly from recycled materials is definitely not bad.

    I would drive a tsi dsg a lot more than a tdi and they're cheaper.


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    #81
    sh1tstirrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭sh1tstirrer


    I've owned plenty petrols and diesels and did high mileage on both types. I always had to spend more on parts for the diesels than for petrols.


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Diesels aren't necessary for cars and vans. Make lpg engines and our air would be far cleaner.

    Hybrids, plug ins and electrics will become even more popular, a gte golf or passat would be real fun and cheap to run but expensive. E golf is greatly over priced I don't care what badge is on it is not worth 35.5k once you include the heat pump and the Leaf at 28k for the highest spec includes a lot of kit.


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    #83
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Never really got the whole Golf thing to be honest. I'd take most of the other Compacts over one given the choice.


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    #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Never really got the whole Golf thing to be honest. I'd take most of the other Compacts over one given the choice.

    I like the Golf interior, but I still think it's poor value for money.

    To get a decent interior you have to pay big bucks or it's just another drab place to sit.

    VW extras are stupidly priced with the exception of the excellent auto cruise that no one in Ireland seems to get, though I think it's standard now on the highline ? That imo is worth 150 Euro. The highline isn't even common in Ireland, bog basis 1.6 TDI manual with manual A/C

    Even the 34.5K Golf Electric has no multi function steering wheel !


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    #85
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Augeo wrote: »
    The chap can only make comparisons with the diesel engine available, I can see how it doesn't suit your sweeping generalisations, such is life :)
    You never answered my question ;) You're the one that haven't yet backed up your claims.


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    #86
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Thet're far more comfortable than high revving petrols IMO
    MuppetCheck wrote: »
    How large a band do you need for mundane day to day driving? 6k? 8k? Revving the shyte out of it on the way to work isn't exactly comfortable.

    Not sure what revs have to do with "comfort". It's simply different types of engines that achieve similar results at very different RPMs. Certainly a 320d will be more comfortable than a Punto 1.2, but I can't see what difference there will be in terms of "comfort" with, say, a 320i.

    What people actually like about diesel engines, aside from the perceived economy, is the fact that they have a more abrupt power delivery and thus often feel faster or at least more agile than a petrol engine of the same power. Heck I drove a 1.4 TDI Fabia that feels quite responsive, only to find out it takes 15 seconds to go from 0-100.
    Jesus. wrote: »
    Spot on. Can't stand having to rev the sh*t out of a little petrol.

    Some blokes seem to love it so each to his own.

    Depends. Keep in mind that most diesels tend to be bigger engines. Driving a petrol 1.2 on a motorway can be a pain, but so is a 1.3 diesel.
    Petrols from 1.8-2.0 and higher pose no issue; even if they rev higher, they tend to be less noisy than diesels (even 'though insulation on most modern cars mean you hear exactly nothing, even if there was a naval engine out front). And if you choose the right car, the sound note might be pleasant too.


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    #87
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    ...What people actually like about diesel engines, aside from the perceived economy, is the fact that they have a more abrupt power delivery and thus often feel faster or at least more agile than a petrol engine of the same power. Heck I drove a 1.4 TDI Fabia that feels quite responsive, only to find out it takes 15 seconds to go from 0-100...

    More torque at lower revs, but out of puff pretty quickly too. I don't recall ever driving a diesel that I didn't think had terrible throttle response, mainly due to the turbocharger lag. Even the brother's 2010 520D feels like it needs a bootful and a second or so before it starts pulling. But then again, I am somewhat spoilt. :D


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    #88
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Mercedes, BMW and VAG have said they will introduce more petrol hybrids and that the next euro Emissions will most likely mean Diesels will be too expensive to make.

    We should have went the LPG route years ago but C02 is seen as the Devil and not the carcinogenic emissions from diesels, people are brainwashed into thinking Co2 is a pollutant, it is not. LPG emits more Co2 but far less pollutants than petrol and especially Diesel.

    The Irish Government still allow Coal as a form of heating in Irish homes all over the country, the clouds of coal smoke in my estate every night is disturbing despite most people having oil heating installed. Noting being done about it. It kills my sinus .

    If people get used to plug in hybrids they won't want to go back to Agricultural engines again.

    Those who have plug ins want more electric range so it's a good way of getting people to go to the dark side of electric vehicles.

    Gen II electrics will start appearing from 2017 on with 120-140 miles real range, I honestly don't think people who will buy a new car would consider a diesel, you will have people who don't like change and think if it doesn't rattle and smoke when you start it that it's not a car or if it can't drive 1000 Kms on one tank/charge I won't buy it ( because I drive 1000 kms every day lol)

    The Kia Soul ev has been independently tested as having 100 miles range @ 100 Kph @ 25 Deg C. and has a battery heater greatly improving winter range, it's got huge potential but it's not for everyone.

    The Golf and Passat GTE plug ins will be available in 2015 but they will be more expensive so the 1.6 TDI will still be the biggest seller.

    If The E.U only realised the benefit of lifting the restrictions of 15 mph on electric bicycles so much city traffic could be eliminated, if the Irish Government restricted certain streets in towns and cities to bicycle only then a lot more people will cycle.

    You can convert your electric bicycle to electric which is a fun way to travel, even a 15 mph electric assist bike has huge potential one of the cheapest forms of transport available. And a good way to get exercise !
    Coal isn't the enemy you think it is, smokeless coal is the law so there shouldn't be clouds of smoke in your estate, but people will burn what they like, and whats cheap. Which is some import crap coal. The carbon tax only makes people broke.
    Diesel still does suit a lot of people, but in reality the market should be more like 20% than the 70% + that it is currently. EV's are ideal second cars, but are too expensive currently as a second car for many.
    These things take time, you can't enforce it over night.
    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Serious? So in typical use they are less economical then a larger capacity, similar bhp NA? What's the point of them so - they happen to suit current emissions testing so they give lower tax?
    Yep, that's exactly the point. Whatever gets measured gets the attention.
    In the real world a new Peugeot claiming 86mpg will do not much better than a 1999 Peugeot diesel which back then claimed 49mpg. But one will fly through the EU tests, the other won't.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's 95% @95 g/km and 100% from 2021, it maybe that auto makers protest and win but it may be that they won't succeed or even bother. It all depends on where they see the auto industry evolving and diesel isn't the way it's going.

    However, there is an incentive for car makers to produce even greater low emissions cars under 50 g/km and those that do can avail of credits, each super low emissions car in 2014 will be classed as 2.5 cars and 1.5 in 2015 and 1 in 2016-2019.

    Once the Euro 7 comes though I think that's it for Diesel. There is certainly no need for diesels in passenger cars and vans as it is, lpg and/or plug ins and electrics would greatly clean up our air quality.

    If the NEDC test doesn't evolve along with the changes then it's a bit pointless because the test itself allows for manufacturers to claim far greater mpg numbers than you can get in real life, so Co2 will increase proportionality.

    Now all we need in Ireland is a nationwide ban on burning coal for heating !
    All we need are some reliable cars, not ones tuned to suit some silly tests.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wouldn't go back to a manual diesel if I was paid, coming from the prius with similar power to a manual diesel there's just no comparison the prius wins hands down for smoothness and comfortable driving with no rattle or vibration. Granted mac acceleration is most but 99 % of the time is relaxed.

    Now give me a golf GTD dsg and I'd be more willing to trade the smoothness of the prius if I got similar economy. But it's grossly over priced, can't win them again the prius isn't cheap but you get a lot more car.
    GTD Golfs at 36.5k are over priced. The new Golf R for only 4k more is the one to get.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The Golf is not better looking than the latest model prius and is a good bit bigger which a lot of people need.

    A dsg golf tdi is far from being smoother than a prius.

    I'll admit the Golf appeals to a lot of people and the prius has the unfortunate image of being too eco for some.

    Vw interiors are definitely nicer if you get a decent spec but considering the prius is made mostly from recycled materials is definitely not bad.

    I would drive a tsi dsg a lot more than a tdi and they're cheaper.
    Ah in fairness, the Prius isn't a pretty car. It's an average looking thing when compared to similar MPV type cars. Toyota interiors have been crap for the last 6 years or so.


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    #89
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    Not sure what revs have to do with "comfort". It's simply different types of engines that achieve similar results at very different RPMs.

    You wouldn't find it more comfortable in a low revving, lazy engine on a Motorway, just ticking over, than you would having to be at 4k revs doing the same speeds?
    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    What people actually like about diesel engines, aside from the perceived economy, is the fact that they have a more abrupt power delivery and thus often feel faster or at least more agile than a petrol engine of the same power. Heck I drove a 1.4 TDI Fabia that feels quite responsive, only to find out it takes 15 seconds to go from 0-100.

    You've just answered your own question mate.....kind of. Not about feeling faster per se but that effortless low-end shove you're talking about is where the comfort is. You simply don't have to work the engine as hard. Its a nicer experience IMO.

    Cleve knows what I'm talking about. Alas I ain't got the money for a lazy big V8 :)


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    #90
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Jesus. wrote: »
    ...Not about feeling faster per se but that effortless low-end shove you're talking about is where the comfort is. You simply don't have to work the engine as hard. Its a nicer experience IMO.

    Cleve knows what I'm talking about. Alas I ain't got the money for a lazy big V8 :)

    Couldn't agree more, sham. I don't ever get it from a diesel, though! :pac:


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    #91
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    jimgoose wrote: »
    More torque at lower revs, but out of puff pretty quickly too. :D

    Cough.......... gearbox :D


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