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My problem with indies
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14-11-2014 3:36pm#1Indie games genre and all the focus being put on it I feel a majority of indie titles are quite shockingly poor and all the love and support the indie scene is getting I cannot fathom at times with the industry making it out to be indie scene is saving the industry with its innovative ideas and designs , sorry but I do not see it.
What I do see its a stock pile of Super Metroid clones that go from tribute to sheer stealing with worse artwork and plain gameplay design Guacamele being the game I am thinking of at the moment.
for every Journey and Flower that left me so captivating with its rich inner story, relaxation and left a ever lasting impression on me that I will never forget you get too much games that try to remind you off the 8bit- 16bit era but much much worse
a binding of issac is not going to replace the first time someone poped in zelda for the first time on the nes
shovel knights is not going to replace the magic of megaman
guacamelee even when the foundation is set in place has not even by the little touched super metroid or even castlevania.
I tried so many indie titles over the years to know they will not replace the big retail titles and only hold my attention for about 15 mins before I become bored.
Joe danger, Octopus dad, Super Meat Boy,trine,steamworld dig,monaco to name a few all I found to be very poor.
only ones I truly loved were Journey , flower and Spelunky
that's it really.1
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I kind of like the ones that make you feel it's the 16 bit era all over again, I'm a sap like that
But yes, it's seems like a lot of it is rubbish, especially this months PS Plus Instant Games Selection.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe this inspired the thread a little? Yes? No? Maybe So?
When I aw the 6 or whatever games being released my 1st though was "this is mostly indie ****"
i know there's a few gems in there, but did anyone honestly watch the advert/hype trailer for "coming this month" and think "Christ Luftrausers looks like a real gem i'm gonna be so moved and sink 20 hours into"?
I thought it looked like a game you'd get free with a graphics card in 2004
Also Frozen Synapse Prime looks like a €4.99 tower defense game on steam IMHO.
So much middling crap.
BUT I will say, at least they are doing what they want/love and not just part of the corporate machine
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My only problem with vector graphics is some indie developers push disgusting looking vector art as retro.
Indie is just like any other scene. You get good games and bad ones, the majority are bad. However the indie scene is pushing out far more groundbreaking and innovative stuff than the triple AAA scene which just polishes and focus tests near everything to a shiny sheen of boring.
I do think far too many indie games are leaning too heavily on past retro games and nostalgia thus producing games well below the standards of the games they ape but every now and again you get something that gets it right such as Shovel Knight.
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I'm curious Richy, the games you've listed in your opening post as ones which you found to be "very poor" have nearly all received universal acclaim from both critics and gamers alike. How do you resolve this with your opinion that the attention these and other indie games are getting is somewhat problematic?
On a more general note, more people who love video games are making video games without being told what to make by people who don't love video games.
I don't see this as a problem personally. 0 -
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I'm curious Richy, the games you've listed in your opening post as ones which you found to be "very poor" have nearly all received universal acclaim from both critics and gamers alike. How do you resolve this with your opinion that the attention these and other indie games are getting is somewhat problematic?
On a more general note, more people who love video games are making video games without being told what to make by people who don't love video games.
I don't see this as a problem personally.
I just do not see the hype from it tbh, its not unique to small devs to see different things , you see it from some of the big publishers aswell. the bigger publishers devs that have been around the longest have created games that I loved for instance crystal dynamics lara croft and the guardian of light and I cannot wait for a sequel. or sony japan game tokyo jungle i equally enjoyed immensely and played it for months.
so I do not get it , personally why as you said alot of the games I mentioned have won awards and achieved universal praise but I cant get into them.
while a game like hotline miami or braid may come out and thought they were simply sublime I find alot of them that achieve equally or more praise that titles I enjoyed I find dull and lackluster , and when I mean I try to get into them I mean it.0 -
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kunst nugget wrote: »Maybe some of these games are not your thing and that's alright. I think Spelunky is crap. I bought it and I put in hours trying to get it to click with me as it obviously had with so many other people. Didn't get anything out of it. Annoyed the piss out of me if I'm honest. Obviously it just wasn't the game for me. I can't say I ever felt I was having the wool pulled over my eyes by the developers because I failed to be able to appreciate it.
its defiantly the case and it really is a shame , even the amount of love no mans sky has got till recently I am scratching my head going , I do not see the big deal while also thinking its going to be to ambitious people are going to be let down , but I will give it a chance. 0 -
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richymcdermott wrote: »I do not know nearly all the games you mentioned as I assume they are pc titles. papers please by all accounts and I am going to be straight forward I am not going to pay money to stamp peoples passports , I know it be interesting for about 10 mins but I know i never go back to it again.
Can you do me a favour Richie, because what's better than doing a favour for a random stranger on the internet :pac:? Can you put aside your prejudice and play Papers, Please? Sure you should have a copy if you got one of the recent Humble Bundles
Papers, Please IMO is a definitive example of how limiting your initial argument is. Trust me (and everybody else who has fallen for the game) on this: 10 minutes will not allow you to comprehensively understand what makes the game so appealing and innovative. It's a game that complicates the gameplay and mechanics in fascinating ways as it goes along, but in doing so also complicates and expands on the narrative and themes. It asks you to do things you have never done before as a player. It's a game that creates an emotional attachment to the situation and world in a totally unique way. Conveniently, it is also a pitch-perfect example of pixel art used for good - the art is full of character (good old Jorji), yet also plays with the game's themes of uniformity and dehumanisation in a very evocative way. All this, and believe it or not the passport stamping mechanics are delightfully tactile and addictive. It is, as far as I'm concerned, as innovative, imaginative, and provocative as gaming gets
Give it a go with an open mind. It truly is something extraordinary.When games like Spelunky or The binding of Isaac can get straight faced 9/10 scores something is very wrong. These games are not enjoyable at all on a base level. People will come here and say they "have amazing depth" but they don't. They are horribly bland, and utterly devoid of any enjoyment. I often wonder have the people who praise these games forgotten what genuinely good gameplay feels like. When I play a game I want to be entertained and immersed in it. I want a decent story, interesting mechanics and the all around package. Indies cannot offer any of these.
Listen: I have no problem with people not enjoying Spelunky. It's a demanding title, and hell we all have acclaimed or well liked games that we don't like or will never warm to.
But this argument that has sprung up since Spelunky's PS Plus inclusion that it is some shallow clone of retro platformers baffles me. I truly cannot marry it with the game I have played - although, to be brutally honest, I am under no illusions I will ever get to experience some of the game's deepest secrets firsthand since I've just about managed to get past world two. The game does have amazing depths - I'd consider that damn close to a fact. It's why people, years after release, are still discovering secrets and achieving feats within it that were once deemed impossible by even its creator.
Here, for example, is a fantastic analysis of a record breaking run achieved in the game last year: http://www.polygon.com/2013/12/23/5227726/anatomy-of-a-spelunky-miracle-or-how-the-internet-finally-beat I don't know how a game that allows for that level of drama, emergent gameplay, complex interaction of mechanics and both dynamic unpredictably and obsessively detailed order can be considered devoid of depth.
You do not have to like Spelunky - I know many have given it a chance and failed to warm to it, and it's hard to argue with a subjective opinion that it is 'bland'. You can disagree with anything I've posted. But at least be fair and acknowledge that the praise it has received isn't based on some mass delusion, but the fact that a tonne of players and reviewers have spent time with the game and come to the conclusion based on their experience with the game. You don't need to conform with that consensus, but at least be reasonable enough to respectfully disagree 0 -
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johnny_ultimate wrote: »Can you do me a favour Richie, because what's better than doing a favour for a random stranger on the internet :pac:? Can you put aside your prejudice and play Papers, Please? Sure you should have a copy if you got one of the recent Humble Bundles
Papers, Please IMO is a definitive example of how limiting your initial argument is. Trust me (and everybody else who has fallen for the game) on this: 10 minutes will not allow you to comprehensively understand what makes the game so appealing and innovative. It's a game that complicates the gameplay and mechanics in fascinating ways as it goes along, but in doing so also complicates and expands on the narrative and themes. It asks you to do things you have never done before as a player. It's a game that creates an emotional attachment to the situation and world in a totally unique way. Conveniently, it is also a pitch-perfect example of pixel art used for good - the art is full of character (good old Jorji), yet also plays with the game's themes of uniformity and dehumanisation in a very evocative way. All this, and believe it or not the passport stamping mechanics are delightfully tactile and addictive. It is, as far as I'm concerned, as innovative, imaginative, and provocative as gaming gets
Give it a go with an open mind. It truly is something extraordinary.
I suppose if I can give a game like noby noby boy 10 hours of my life and enjoy myself I can give papers please at least a chance.
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richymcdermott wrote: »I said I feel most indie games either follow tribute or borrow heavily from titles such as super metroid , not stating fact but a opinion . I cant state anything as fact without evidence , I cant go mona lisa was depressed because shes barely smiling , I would not know I was not there when the portrait was painted so how the hell I would know ? I see something you and others wont but thats okay .
I'd say that's blurring the line between fact and opinion. It is a fact that a lot of independently produced games are influenced - somewhat or a lot - by retro games. That's a fair, objective observation. When we get down to whether that's a good or a bad thing in individual cases is where the opinion part comes in, and where sweeping generalisations struggle to keep up. It's not too much of a stretch to say it would be nice if more developers didn't take such explicit inspiration from the past and experimented with newer forms of expression, but again that doesn't really IMO capture the complex reality as there are plenty of games already doing so and retro inspiration can be a positive thing. After all, pretty much all great games build on foundations laid down elsewhere, barring the occasional truly revolutionary effort.
To return to some of your initially cited examples:- Guacamelee undoubtedly follows a Metroidvania formula, none of us can reasonably dispute that. And yet it's also very much its own beast. The art and aesthetics are entirely its own. The combat system is radically different to Metroid or Castlevania - really tightly honed to the game's 'Mexican wrestling' fondness. The exploration and gameplay has a load of flourishes - such as its implementation of a 'spirit realm', or the platforming opportunities afforded by its power-ups - that again make it feel fresh and different.
- Shovel Knight - again, the developers make no efforts at hiding their fondness of gaming's past. And yet it feels like a thoroughly modern game in terms of speed and accessibility (not always a bad word). Its key mechanics are unique and are explored in very clever ways. Its graphics are bold and vibrant, and not restrictively betrothed to old technology (unlike say Mega Man 9 and 10, which absolutely and apologetically are stuck in the past for better and worse). It's a game that is happy to take on board some of the more positive developments in game design and technology as well as its nostalgic streak. See also Super Meat Boy.
- Steamworld Dig's inspirations aren't hard to spot, but then it combines a lot of different ideas and genres to again emerge as something distinct. A good case for how mixing familiar elements can itself be a form of innovation.
None of these games are trying to 'replace' the classics. No doubt the developers love the originals as much as you do. But then I think it's unfair to call them mere clones or lacking in character of their own. That's doubly true of games like Gunpoint, Monaco, Nidhogg, Towerfall Ascension, Sword and Sorcery EP, Where is My Heart, Thomas was Alone, Proteus etc... - where retro visuals mask gameplay that is anything but retro (all, incidentally, worth a go).
And one simple fact to remember - you're older That 'indescribable magic' that a lot of us associate with older games is something we become immune to when we're older, more cynical and critical. Obviously a lot of true classics boast impeccable design, but so do a lot of modern games, and frankly we're all a bit older and wiser so not prone to the same level of excited engagement with each and every new game. Nothing beats the odd game that does do that though!
Anyway, glad to hear you're willing to give Papers Please a go, be sure to report back. If you're looking for other recommendations, I'd recommend these as there is no risk of mistaking them for mere retro revivals:
Gone Home
Jazzpunk
Dust (which you should have already from PS+ - frankly, the fact one man made it actually shows up the visual efforts of a whole lot of independently produced titles!)
Frozen Synapse
Kentucky Route Zero
The Banner Saga
Year Walk (mobile and PC)
Hohokum (blurs the 'indie' definition a bit given Sony Santa Monica's involvement, but as a small art game I think its inclusion is warranted)0 -
I do not mind pixel art in fact I love it and have no problem with devs using it but gameplay has to back it up . I am looking at you mercenary kings , maybe I am viewing it in a different light thats orginally as tended it to be amd I do appreciate games for trying something even if the said game does not click with me.
I just see sometimes pixel art being used to lore people in when you hear the megadrive music or nes , snes it just seems to trigger the nostalgia button in my heart , but often when I play it I am like well fcuk
A game like hotline miami had the gameplay to back it up .
But being influenced is never a bad thing , brothers a tale of two sons is very ico in spirit to me and while it has a very slow start it has very powerful moments and landscapes but piss poor controls at times trying to control two brothers with the analog sticks. But it was quite an experience.
Thanks to everyone for your game reccomendations , vanishing of ethan carter came up alot and gone home . I look out for these aswell as papers please and be sure to give my thoughts. 0 -
+1 for Dust: An Elysian Tale.
An enjoyable 8 hour game with a story that is actually pretty grabbing emotionally and pretty epic in scope (there was/is meant to be a TV in development)
The fact that is made by 1 guy makes it all the more interesting.
I actually found the characters believable and enjoyed their quippy humour.
Plus..... the ending*sheds a solitary tear*
But maybe you'll just find it to be a shoddy DMC style 2D hack and Slash with some RPG elements and think Figit is a *****
Sunrise, Sunset
Unless you get The Stanley Parable for free, stay away, while I know Johnny et-al will rise to us it as an example of blurring lines, making commentary on games as a whole and the whole understanding of linear gameplay etc...... It is not worth the money at anything more that €1.99..... you will get about 40 minutes out of it, maybe more if looking at a flow chart and some youtube videos isn't for you....
Put simply, there's an ending where you need to press a button constantly for 4 hours.... and to me, that sounds like EVERY thing you dislike about "indie" games.
Also do you consider "The Beamoth" to be an Indie studio, the release 2 man games but had a commercial release on Gamecube....
Any way, Battle Block Theater is one the best Platformers, indie or not, I've ever played and I LOVED the humour of it.
I had more fun playing that in local multiplayer with a mate and a few beers than i ever had getting my 4th prestige in BLOPS20 -
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